Drinkers Diary Vs Alcoholics Anonymous

[Khutan]

They are totally different ways of taking control.

DD works very well for some and AA works for others. Each method has its advantages and its negatives.

I think its reasonable to hear positive comments how wither DD or AA has helped rather than one is better than the other.

[Neeranam]

I tried a drinking diary and it didn't work. I tried many things and only AA worked.

There is a big difference between alcoholics and heavy drinkers.

For the heavy drinker, he can use will-power to cut and the DD may be the best method.

For the alcoholic - NO AMOUNT OF WILLPOWER CAN MAKE YOU STOP!

It has nothing to do with being "strong".

How do you know which you are?

One way might be to drink, say 1 whiskies or one bottle of Chang and stop. If you can't stop, the chances are you are alcoholic.

I never had one drink in my life.

For the alcoholic - 1 drink is too many, 100 not enough.

[jayenram]

I've obviously heard of A.A. but can someone explain what a "drinker's diary" is?

[Totster]

allow me to recount what I was told:

This method was known as the "Drinkers Diary". Please take my advice with the best intentions, rather than moralising or giving you a lecture.

The key to this method, that worked for me, is control over your life rather than having drink control you.

1. You need to have 90 days totally off the sauce. That includes all additives, thinks like toppings for christmas cake etc. So 90 days of nothing.

I can tell you it is difficult to do. During the 90 days, you need to keep a journal. Every tie you want a drink, you need to outline your feelings and what had made you want to drink, and how you think it will make you feel better.

The purpose of this is to help you see inside the motives that make you drink. When you understand your motives, then you are in a position to take control.

2. When you start to drink again after the 90 days, you must set some rules. Simple ones but none the less rules.

The first rule is you must keep the journal or diary. This is very important. Now when you have a drink, then you must record every drink you have in the journal, why you drank it, and also what having the drink did for you. You should also add what effect there was on you.

The next rule is, as you have now been off the drink for 3 months is to set limits to your activities. Time limits such as what hours of the day you will drink. The first and most obvious one is no social drinking before mid-day. You know your lifestyle, so you need also to set an end-time also.

You must also set a rule on drinking alone. The program I was on said you must never drink alone.

[jayenram]

Thanks Toast. I've seen that thread now.

[lampard10]

I stopped through sheer will power.................................................my wifes will power.

[Simmo]

A.A. is religion in disguise.

All the "you can't control your yourself, you're helpless" is a prelude to "finding a higher power". What they don't tell you is that recovery rates with A.A. programs are exactly the same as through will power alone (about 10%).

There was a good Penn & Teller episode about A.A. where they went through the history of it, I'd recommend anyone to check it out.

Alcoholism is not a disease, it's a behaviour.

[ding]

A.A. is religion in disguise.

All the "you can't control your yourself, you're helpless" is a prelude to "finding a higher power". What they don't tell you is that recovery rates with A.A. programs are exactly the same as through will power alone (about 10%).

There was a good Penn & Teller episode about A.A. where they went through the history of it, I'd recommend anyone to check it out.

Alcoholism is not a disease, it's a behaviour.

I really can't agree with the information you posted Simmo. AA is a spiritual program NOT RELIGIOUS, and even that is open and optional. There's no organized religion in AA. if there is, tradition is being broken and feel free to speak up in a spirit of helpfulness.

Recovery rates are probably less than 10%, but 100% if you work the program, go to meetings and don't drink in between. So I guess it's 100% fo AA and about 1 in 32 for drunks.

A drunk's self-will is what gets him into trouble.

Penn & Teller are creative comedians. Watch out Hazelden!

Alcoholism is a disease according to a bunch of initials, any other opinion is perfectly fine by me. I just want the record widened to include professional established opinion;

cited http://www.physiciansnews.com/commentary/298wp.html

During the past 35 years, numerous studies by behavioral and social scientists have supported Jellinek’s contentions about alcoholism as a disease. The American Medical Association endorsed the concept in 1957. The American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the World Health Organization and the American College of Physicians have also classified alcoholism as a disease. In addition, the findings of investigators in the late 1970s led to explicit criteria for an "alcohol dependence syndrome" which are now listed in the DSM IIR, DSM IV, and the ICD manual. In a 1992 JAMA article, the Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine published this definition for alcoholism: "Alcoholism is a primary chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal. It is characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, mostly denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic."

[Khutan]

....There is a big difference between alcoholics and heavy drinkers.....

So True, that is why different programs get the result for different people. I know that AA has had great results for some and not for others.

Same with DD, it you are a true Alcoholic, then after the 90 days, you are as bad as ever.

Other stuff like Ant-abuse etc works for others again.

I don't like the Ant-Abuse method though, can have shocking side effects.

[Simmo]

I really can't agree with the information you posted Simmo. AA is a spiritual program NOT RELIGIOUS, and even that is open and optional. There's no organized religion in AA. if there is, tradition is being broken and feel free to speak up in a spirit of helpfulness.

Relgious / spiritual , its the same to me. I refuse to believe I'm helpless ,

People are in charge of their own lives not a "higher power".

In the P & T program they sent in a camera crew to the headquarters of A.A. for an interview. They wouldn't speak but noted that all the hallways were covered in crosses and posters about Jesus and God. No organised religion hey?

It's optional ?? .. What happens if I refuse step number 1.

Recovery rates are probably less than 10%, but 100% if you work the program, go to meetings and don't drink in between. So I guess it's 100% fo AA and about 1 in 32 for drunks.

Nice slight of hand with your statistics there, The program is 100% successful for those that complete it, what happens to the vast majority that don't. A program with less than 10% success rate doesn't sound that great to me. If the program is so great why don't A.A publish statistics about their success rates.

Quoting from this site

Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

A 5% success rate is nothing more than the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics and drug addicts. That is, out of any given group of alcoholics or drug addicts, approximately 5% per year will just wise up, and quit killing themselves.6 They just get sick and tired of being sick and tired, and of watching their friends die. (And something between 1% and 3% of their friends do die annually, so that is a big incentive.) They often quit with little or no official treatment or help. Some actually detox themselves on their own couches, or in their own beds, or locked in their own closets. Often, they don't go to a lot of meetings. They just quit, all on their own, or with the help of a couple of good friends who keep them locked up for a few days while they go through withdrawal. A.A. and N.A. true believers insist that addicts can't successfully quit that way, but they do, every day.

A drunk's self-will is what gets him into trouble.

Penn & Teller are creative comedians. Watch out Hazelden!

They're much more than that , they're intelligent libretarians.

Alcoholism is a disease according to a bunch of initials, any other opinion is perfectly fine by me. I just want the record widened to include professional established opinion;

Fine, I can play the citing game too and quote other medical sources that say it's not.

Here

But there's one simple test for a disease. How do we treat it ?? ..

Do we treat diabetes with some hokey 12 step program. When I get an infection do I have to give myself up to some higher power??

My dad got sucked into a particulary zealous A.A. group sorry if I've vented a little to much it brought back old feelings when I saw this thread.

[Neeranam]

A.A. is religion in disguise.

Total nonsense!

Alcoholism is not a disease, it's a behaviour.

You know better that all the professional world, do you? Don't you know families where generations were alcoholics? Certain races, like aborigines are a lot more prone to this "affliction"

Here's my "opinion" -

When an "alcoholic" takes alcohol, natural opiates are produced. These, or the lack of them, is what causes the cravings for more. It could then be a physiological disease.

Years ago, at the Royal Edinburgh Hospital, I took part in a clinical trial for a new drug to cure alcoholism. The drug was called Naltrexone(an opoid antagonist - used for giving to heroin addicts when overdosing).

When taking this drug, I continued to drink, but in the mornings, when before I had an UNCONTROLLABLE craving to get alcohol, I had no such craving. The alcohol didn't do much for me.

I wasn't interested in drinking as much as I could anymore - it didn't do anything.

I wanted the old "high" back so stopped taking the drug.

An alcoholic experiences a "high" not like an normal person, or even a heavy drinker.

An alcoholic is very much like a heroin addict.

The great thing about AA is that you can meet people who were in a similar place and recovered.

That's how it works - it's not wise to take advice from those who don't know.

That's why doctors, social workers, wives etc can not help an alcoholic. A REAL alcoholic will sacrifice EVERYTHING for a drink.

There is some mis-understanding by the "normal" drinkers - "why can't he stop using will-power?" etc. AA has a 5-10% success rate which is great. I'd say if you work the program, the success rate would be 100%.

All the "you can't control your yourself, you're helpless" is a prelude to "finding a higher power". What they don't tell you is that recovery rates with A.A. programs are exactly the same as through will power alone (about 10%).

Nonsense.

[Neeranam]

The AA Preamble

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

[ding]

Relgious / spiritual , its the same to me. I refuse to believe I'm helpless

That's cool. You are clearly not an Alcoholic. Or, you are clearly an alcoholic!

That's my official diagnosis.

Hey, if ya need it -it will save your life and can help you live better than you could ever imagine. If you don't need it, that's wonderful.

For me, I'm so lucky to have another day on this spinnin' ball of mud that I can't keep the eyes quite dry. I'm one smilin' fool and I don't care why -I just am!

I just hope somebody that could use help does NOT read this poster's assertions as valid. They are absolutely not fact. And I'm sorry to hear about what may have happened with your dad Simmo. There are usually many different meeteings. If one is violating traditions then you can go to the other ones. AA is not a zealous program, it is sick people getting well. Weller than well if you want!

Edited June 19, 2006 by ding

[Neeranam]

That's cool. You are clearly not an Alcoholic. Or, you are clearly an alcoholic!

That's my official diagnosis.

Wise words.

[Simmo]

Relgious / spiritual , its the same to me. I refuse to believe I'm helpless

That's cool. You are clearly not an Alcoholic. Or, you are clearly an alcoholic!

That's my official diagnosis.

Hey, if ya need it -it will save your life and can help you live better than you could ever imagine. If you don't need it, that's wonderful.

For me, I'm so lucky to have another day on this spinnin' ball of mud that I can't keep the eyes quite dry. I'm one smilin' fool and I don't care why -I just am!

I just hope somebody that could use help does NOT read this poster's assertions as valid. They are absolutely not fact.

I see you didn't respond to any of my assertions about the success rate of A.A. Does that mean they are indeed fact?.

FYI I'm not an alcoholic, I rarely ever drink and never more than a few beers at social events. I responded to this thread because A.A had a huge negative impact on my fathers life and our family. Far more than his drinking ever did.

[Simmo]

The AA Preamble

ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

Fine , that's a nice preamble.

What about this. Step 2 of 12.

"Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity".

How can I as an atheist come to believe this? Oh .. of course .. thats optional right.

[Neeranam]

What about this. Step 2 of 12.

"Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity".

How can I as an atheist come to believe this? Oh .. of course .. thats optional right

I think that your father found a group that was full of religious nuts - this has nothing to do with AA.

There are mens groups, womens, gay, young people etc etc.

I know of AA groups where most are atheists. The AA group, many use as their higher power.

[Simmo]

I think that your father found a group that was full of religious nuts - this has nothing to do with AA.

There are mens groups, womens, gay, young people etc etc.

I know of AA groups where most are atheists. The AA group, many use as their higher power.

We could go back and forth on the religious aspect forever. There's a good write up in the Wikipedia entry on Alcoholics Anonymous that summarizes the for and against positions much better than we can.

It's interesting to note in the article that a US Federal court has ruled AA as being "unequivocally religious".

Anyway my main point was this. A.A. is no more effective than "doing it yourself". They each have failure rates of around 90-95%. It's success rate is the same as the rate of spontaneous remission in alcoholics ie .. it has no effect.

[sabaijai]

Half of AA's original Twelve Steps explicitly mention God, according to the University of Virginia's New Religious Movements website.

The web page lists several alternatives to AA one of which is self-recovery.

It is interesting that AAers believe you can't halt a drinking addiction, or continue to maintain abstinence, without group support and the aforementioned higher power. Millions of people around the world quit other sorts of addictions, whether physical or mental, without maintaining a lifelong group membership. Many do so through medical rehabilitation and once that's behind them they continue to fight their addictive tendencies on their own. Some fall back into addiction, and some don't--at a rate similar to what one sees from AA.

The 'going with the program' bit applies for any treatment strategy one chooses to quit drinking, including self recovery, so success rates apply equally for AA as for other treatment strategies, statistically speaking.

I have an acquaintance who is a PhD toxicologist specialising in drug addiction research, who frequently appears in courtrooms across the US as an addiction expert, and according to him most addiction experts nowadays agree that addiction (of any kind, including alcohol) cannot be classified as a 'disease' but rather a behaviour. There are many older academics still hanging onto the disease model but there doesn't appear to be much empirical evidence supporting that hypothesis. The correlations with dopamine levels aren't statistically significant (that is, they don't predict behaviour), or so I've read.

Some interesting books on this subject:

Addiction Is A Choice by Dr Jeffrey A. Schaler'

Resisting 12-Step Coercion : How to Fight Forced Participation in AA, NA, or 12-Step Treatment by Stanton Peele

Truth About Addiction and Recovery by Stanton Peele

Powerfully Recovered! A Confirmed 12 Stepper Challenges the Movement by Anne Wayman

Heavy Drinking : The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease by Herbert Fingarette

Rational Recovery : The New Cure for Substance Addiction by Jack Trimpey

disclaimer: My interest is purely academic, I have no experience with alcohol abuse or AA or any other addiction treatment program.

[Neeranam]

Half of AA's original Twelve Steps explicitly mention God, according to the University of Virginia's New Religious Movements website.

Sabaijai - you may be interested to know that when I was in the Suan Mokh, Surathani, there was a senior monk there who often referred to the AA "Big Book". I feel too that there is so much relevant to Buddhism. I have a good friend who has been a Buddhist monk for 10 years who supports the use of the 12 steps of AA. Although learning about Buddhism and meditation techniques for years in India and Thailand - I couldn't get sober by myself that way. I've met a few Abbots in Thailand who are showing a great interest in starting AA groups in their temples.Believe me - religion can not get people sober - Buddhism, Christianity, whatever.

There are many AA members getting sober in Japan/China, who don't believe in God.

I think that the original members of AA were Christian and believed in God, but they strongly stressed that a belief in God was not necessary.

There's a great book written by a Buddhist teacher called ""One breath at a time" Buddhism and the 12 steps" by Kevin Griffin

Edited June 20, 2006 by Neeranam

[sabaijai]

There's a great book written by a Buddhist teacher called ""One breath at a time" Buddhism and the 12 steps" by Kevin Griffin

That sounds like an interesting read, Neeranam. My natural reaction to the AA method of attaining sobriety is that since it was developed in the 1930s and basically hasn't changed since then, it ignores all the scientific advancements in addiction treatment and theory that have occurred since then.

On the other hand it obviously works well for some people and there's a lot to be said for 'old ways' of doing things. In that sense one could view AA as a traditional, home-grown remedy. Certainly one can't call 12-step programs scientific in the usual definition of the term (ie, based on empirical research).

As for the connection with Buddhism, I don't think see how they can be philosophically linked. I would think the first AA tenet (powerlessness) would be a stumbling block for some practicing Buddhists, before they even got to the 'higher power' and 'God' sections. And the notion that one is an alcoholic/addict for one's entire life, even after year's of abstinence, really fits the Buddhist world view (not the Theravada Buddhist one at any rate), does it?

On the other hand I'm sure plenty of Buddhists find AA a perfectly acceptable solution to their drinking problems and it's obvious you don't have to profess Christianity to be an AA member as long as you accept the higher power/God notions in half of the tenets, and the disease model for alcohol addiction.

I came across an interesting US article on controlled drinking vs abstinence just now, "The Drinking Dilemma," which suggests that "by calling abstinence the only cure, we ensure that [the USA's] $100 billion alcohol problem won't be solved."

The AA's bible, The Big Book, is available online here.

[Khutan]

My understanding is the "Greater Power" can be God or even your family. The important thing rather is a strong and benign power.

I have little experience with AA, but I do know it works for many people.

As I said earlier, can we look at the positives rather then the negatives.

[ThaiPauly]

Half of AA's original Twelve Steps explicitly mention God, according to the University of Virginia's New Religious Movements website.

The web page lists several alternatives to AA one of which is self-recovery.

It is interesting that AAers believe you can't halt a drinking addiction, or continue to maintain abstinence, without group support and the aforementioned higher power. Millions of people around the world quit other sorts of addictions, whether physical or mental, without maintaining a lifelong group membership. Many do so through medical rehabilitation and once that's behind them they continue to fight their addictive tendencies on their own. Some fall back into addiction, and some don't--at a rate similar to what one sees from AA.

The 'going with the program' bit applies for any treatment strategy one chooses to quit drinking, including self recovery, so success rates apply equally for AA as for other treatment strategies, statistically speaking.

I have an acquaintance who is a PhD toxicologist specialising in drug addiction research, who frequently appears in courtrooms across the US as an addiction expert, and according to him most addiction experts nowadays agree that addiction (of any kind, including alcohol) cannot be classified as a 'disease' but rather a behaviour. There are many older academics still hanging onto the disease model but there doesn't appear to be much empirical evidence supporting that hypothesis. The correlations with dopamine levels aren't statistically significant (that is, they don't predict behaviour), or so I've read.

Some interesting books on this subject:

Addiction Is A Choice by Dr Jeffrey A. Schaler'

Resisting 12-Step Coercion : How to Fight Forced Participation in AA, NA, or 12-Step Treatment by Stanton Peele

Truth About Addiction and Recovery by Stanton Peele

Powerfully Recovered! A Confirmed 12 Stepper Challenges the Movement by Anne Wayman

Heavy Drinking : The Myth of Alcoholism as a Disease by Herbert Fingarette

Rational Recovery : The New Cure for Substance Addiction by Jack Trimpey

disclaimer: My interest is purely academic, I have no experience with alcohol abuse or AA or any other addiction treatment program.

I read with interest the ARV website link that you posted.

I have to say that I am sceptical of it. A lot of the information that they put in about AA is simply untrue.

For example they say the AA Group wants to "Posses" You.. That is simply not true. I was never told that 'We are your new family" I never treated anyone like that , everyone who attented their first meeting had the opportunity to return or not, it was there choice. nobody MADE THEM.

When I attended my first AA meeting I never went back for a year.. I simply did not think they could help me and I was not like THEM... but once I accepted my "Powerlessness over Alcohol" I started to get the message. I stuck around and listened to people recounting experiences that were exactly like mine.

I built up freindships, some of these lasted much longer than when I stopped going to meetings. The only reason I stopped was because I met my last Wife at a meeting.. she was MADE to go as part of her recovery in a treatment centre, but she did not want to be there, so consequently she got nothing out of it.. She thought she was cured..we led a very happy life for a time..but then Drink came back as we thought we could handle just one or two.. but could not. Drink wrecked our marriage

Anyway, I just don't beleive, and this is just my personal opinion here, that there is any other way to quit other than by having the support of people in the same boat as you, people who understand what you are going through. Non- Alcoholics can never truly understand what drives Alcoholics to be Alcoholics...

Some of us are living here in the sunshine, our lives are perfect.. but we still try and destroy everything we have by abusing alcohol and tobacco.

It just does not make sense.......Oh I could go on and on.. but who wants to read my mummblings,

If you are addicted then you have to find the way that works for YOU, be it AA, Drinker's Diary or something else. The important thing is to STOP before it's too late

[Khutan]

If you are addicted then you have to find the way that works for YOU, be it AA, Drinker's Diary or something else. The important thing is to STOP before it's too late

Exactly

[sabaijai]

If you are addicted then you have to find the way that works for YOU, be it AA, Drinker's Diary or something else. The important thing is to STOP before it's too late

Exactly

Amen.

[Mobi]

I have never previously seen adverse criticism of the AA until I read about it on this thread. I had only ever heard about how helpful and necessary the AA is to alcoholics wishing to stop drinking.

When I announced my intention to quit drinking on a "how much do you drink?" thread, some 4 months ago, I didn't recveive many comments, but the few I did recieve all urged me to go to the AA.

Well, I looked it up on the web, and I have to say that I was immediately put off by all the references to the "good book" and the general religious undertones. All the stories about reformed alcoholics were linked to religion, and acknowledging God and being 'saved'.

Reading the supporters of AA on this forum, it seems that I may have recieved a distorted picture, but if that is indeed the case, then someone in the AA needs to do something urgently to update their image.

I'm not knocking the AA - I am sure it can work for many people, but from what I've seen and read, it certainly isn't for me. I'll soldier on alone, and try the 'drinker's diary' method.

[ThaiPauly]

You gotta go with what works for you .

Personally when I was in AA nobody told me that I had to believe in GOD.. just to believe that there is a higher power than ME!

The fact that I Did beleive in God was a bonus.

I can't really comment on how someone who does not beleive deals with this, only that I knew some that did, but it was not something we discussed.

The word GOD is used frequently in AA, but I have known many atheists within the organistaion ..God can mean different things to different people.

I am really not advocating that anybody should use AA.. all I am recounting is my own personal experiences whilst enjoying a hot cup of tea!! (For a change..Day off the sauce for me today, hope I can do it tomorrow.)

Everybody has choices and what will work for one, won't work for another.

[Pattayatony]

I Joined AA in August 1980 and I have remained sober ever since "One day at a time". Prior to coming to AA I had tried many ways to stop or control my drinking and I failed. As a total last resort I went to a meeting of AA and realised that there were other men & women that had suffered the same as me.

How does AA work? I dont know or care it just works for me. I will put the 10th Tradition below and this is the reason I won't get into a debate about it in a public forum. If you are having a problem with the booze I hope you can find sobriety in what ever way you choose to do it. I can only tell you what has worked for me over the last 26 years and it has given me a happy and contented life. I wish you all good luck.

10th Tradition: No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial issues—particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning such matters they can express no views whatever.

[moobaa]

Everybody has choices and what will work for one, won't work for another.

Sorry ThaiPauly but nobody has 'choices'

We are we are and we do what we do.

We drink or stop drinking only if we are able to.

Certain catalysts may help us go in one direction as opposed to the other but at the end of the day we can only do what we can only do.

I believe that if you accept the above you are more likely to accept yourself.

Truth is, people need alcohol like others need power, or sex, or pity, or money. You can fight it but then you fight yourself.

MB

[tuky]

My understanding is the "Greater Power" can be God or even your family. The important thing rather is a strong and benign power.

I have little experience with AA, but I do know it works for many people.

As I said earlier, can we look at the positives rather then the negatives.

That is my understanding, or perhaps take on the matter too.

Nobody can tell you that AA will not work because they preach God, I have been to a few AA meetings years ago and didn't really feel I fit in, perhaps it was because I was atleast 20 years younger than everyone else. I then went to another rehabd program that used the same motto as AA, you know, the accept the things I cannot change thing (I forget it now), but that place (not affiliated with AA) let me know that your higher power can be what you want it to be. AN example was this guy who owned a porsche, but could not get off the turps long enough to drive it. He used his porsche as his higher power. I do not know how he went, but that is what I see the higher power being.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, the longest I have ever remained sober was due to a christian program I enrolled in, I spent 12 months at this xtian place going to chapel each day, reading the bible and so forth and after the completion I spent another 18 months smoke free and sober. All it took was one beer and one smoke on night in the Long Bar at Raffles in Singas.

I do think christianity can help, but in truth it is a replacement rather than a cure. I wonder what is more healthy? Christianity or drunkeness?