KhunHeineken

Why do you say that? I could accept your comment after the May budget, but not before. Aren't we past the "scaremongering" label for the proposed changes? The current Labor government is running with them, and given it was the previous Liberal government who proposed them, who is going to vote them down? It's just a matter of time before they are passed, by either political party who puts them to parliament.

If that's the case, why are you posting on this forum?

This the unknown factor in the equation, life expectancy. Live to a ripe old age in Thailand, and the 2 years back in Australia for the pension was worth it. Die not long after the 2 years back in Australia and it wasn't worth it. That said, their is a sense of entitlement, and rightly so. Why let the government off the hook for it?

Which would be illegal, and if / when they catch up with him, not only is there the fine, but he'll have to pay it all back. Actually, for a case like this, he very well may be criminally charged with fraud.

Some may say the fools are the ones that work all their life, just to give the money to those that have never worked a day in their life.

I agree with your summary. The sad thing is, you work all of your life and pay all of that income tax, with a lot that tax revenue going to people who have never even worked day in their life, and just because your decide to live overseas, you are financially punished and lose entitlements.

Which is exactly why the residency rules will change. They are designed to exclude "everyone's circumstances" and simply will be based on physical presence and time. No ifs, not buts, no reviews, no appeals. It comes down to where were you, and for how long - that's it.

The Australian government wants you to die working. https://www.aph.gov.au/about_parliament/parliamentary_departments/parliamentary_library/pubs/rp/budgetreview201415/pensioners#:~:text=The Labor Government introduced measures,2025 until it reaches 70. "The 2014–15 Budget confirmed speculation that the qualifying age for the Age Pension will be raised to 70 by 2035. The current qualifying age is 65. The Labor Government introduced measures in 2009 to increase the pension age to 67 through gradual increases during the period July 2017 to July 2023.[1] The proposal contained in the 2014–15 Budget is to continue to increase the pension age by six months every two years from 1 July 2025 until it reaches 70. The measure does not affect this Budget and is intended to help address the impact an ageing population will have on government finances in the long term."

Oh, so you now agree the proposed changes are in the mail.

Watch it yourself. https://9now.nine.com.au/a-current-affair/centrelink-customers-claim-they-are-being-hung-up-on-as-delays-stretch-out-to-months/ffedf397-cde1-4ad6-9b08-1289671193cd#:~:text=General Manager of Services Australia,to get on the pension.&text="Look%2C age pension is a,have all the information validated."

1 million is a "few" is it? Of course, they are only after one guy in that 1 million, Paul Hogan. https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/before-you-go/activities/living-overseas#:~:text=At any time%2C there are,travellers for a great start! "At any time, there are around one million Australians living and working overseas."

So the Stage 3 tax cuts are passed the Senate and you declare the proposed changes to the 90 year old current tax residency laws are dead in the water.

Same budget allocated for staff, but the call center moved to India or The Philippine and they hired triple the amount of staff for the same money.

I think this link covers everything. https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/investments-and-assets/investing-in-bank-accounts-and-income-bonds "Banks and other investment bodies report to the ATO the interest they pay to account holders and investors. We match this information with the amounts people report in their tax returns to ensure that all income is being declared. If we find a discrepancy, we do adjust tax returns and penalties can apply." So, the banks send the information to the ATO. The ATO doesn't even request it from the banks. I suggested this is how the Thai tax on foreigners would have to work also. Might be a good idea to supply your bank with your Thai address after the proposed changes come in. "Financial institutions automatically withhold tax from interest earned on accounts held by foreign residents. If you've given the financial institution your overseas address, the tax will be withheld at the rate of 10%. Without your overseas address, tax is withheld at 47%. You don't include this interest as income on your Australian tax return." In my opinion, the above will rely on the proposed changes and information from immigration. No longer can you give your bank an Australian address, when the ATO know you are outside of Australia for 183 days. The ATO even wants the interest earned in Thailand. That's the tax on "worldwide income." "Some tax authorities in other countries don't require you to report interest earned overseas, but we do. If you hold bank accounts in other countries, you must report any interest or other income earned from these accounts in your Australian income tax return. You may have to pay additional charges if you don't do this." Once again, I am not saying I am right and you are wrong. Some is fact and some is my opinion, but interesting times ahead. As I have mentioned before, for significant cash holdings, a global bank in Singapore may be the solution.

The owner pays these fees, not the tenant. of course, they are reflected in the rent price. Basically, what I am getting at is this, say you have $500,000AUD to buy a unit in Australia. To buy the unit you are also up for stamp duty, legals, strata, council rates, maintenance etc, and are also exposed to the property market. Then, when selling, you are up for agent's commission. If you put that $500,000AUD in a bank account paying say 5% per month in interest, that's $500,000 x 5% = $25,000 per annum, which is $480 per week. Rent a unit for around this price, no other taxes or fees to pay, and you may get rent assistance also. Stamp duty on purchase and agent's commission on sale is going to be thousands and thousands of dollars, so even if you can sell the unit 2 years later at a higher price, the profit is gone with just these two fees alone.

Maybe you can post your definition of "enforce." Centerlink stop supplement payments on pensions after 6 weeks outside of Australia. Is that "enforcement" or withholding? If you don't supply your bank your TFN, they withhold 47% tax on any interest earned. Is that "enforcement" or withholding tax? It's your right to think the ATO informing banks of an account holder's residency status as absurd. I think it's a long bow to draw as well, but times are changing, and as I said, I can't see interest earned by non residents getting a non resident tax free pass. I've also said for the new Thai tax on foreigners system to work, the Thai banks will have to be involved. If what I said is absurd, can you offer any idea as to how they tax it. As Lacessit said, "if you fail to plan, you plan to fail" so I consider anything and everything. Here's a scenario. A pensioner living in Thailand sells a house in the outer Sydney suburbs for $1.5 million AUD. That's around the going rate these days. They put the proceeds into a bank account paying, for example purposes, 5%. They earn around $75,000 a year in interest. I've suggested one way the ATO may get their hands on it, which you say is absurd, and that fine, but you can suggest how they may get their hands on it, because I sure don't think it's going to be non resident tax free. A friend of mine is facing the above scenario. His father is 95 years old. My thinking is, assuming the account has a TFN supplied, a tax return on $75,000 earnings will have to be submitted, so straight away there goes the pension, then, the ATO knows through immigration you are a non resident, so there goes your tax free threshold and in comes the 32.5%. Happy to debate this if you think it is incorrect. Once again, I'm not saying I am right and you are wrong. Just trying to get some collective subjectivity into how the new system will work because unlike the old system, it will be impossible to claim you are still a tax resident of Australia when you are living in Thailand.

I agree with your summary, but I think you underestimate the wealth of many pensioners. A lot of pensioners are "boomers." They hold lot of wealth in savings, property, and shares. They made good money in an era when Australia was prosperous, and there was a lot of cash in hand work around. They are also "the bank of Mum and Dad" for the younger generation trying to get into the property market. Creative accounting is also benefiting them now, Of course, on this thread, we are mainly discussing pensioners living fortnight to fortnight on their pension in Thailand, but the demographic called "pensioners" are all put into one group. Some are quite wealthy, others live fortnight to fortnight.

No problem. Everyone's entitled to their opinions and predictions. Time will tell what will happen, and how the government will implement the system. This is something we will all have to wait for and then supply more links with facts. I just set the record straight when you posted I said Centerlink will enforce it all. That was not the case.

I'll address some posts by other members in this one post also. My understanding is any interest earned in a bank account in Australia is income. That income is added to all other income, including the pension. You are then taxed on your total income as per the resident tax brackets that have been posted before, but as a resident, you have the advantage of the tax free threshold. If the interest remains within Australia, it is not "remitted funds" to Thailand, so I can't see how Thailand can tax it, HOWEVER, Thailand is looking to join other western countries and tax "worldwide income" as Australia does, which makes the interest earned in Australia something one may have to declare in Thailand in the future. This is where the DTA, current, or updated DTA, will come into play. I have posted a link showing the authorities of contracting DTA countries exchange financial information. Now, as a non resident of Australia for tax purposes, what happens to that interest is debatable. As a non resident for tax purposes, the interest isn't a pension, so can't hide behind the famous Article 18 and Article 19 of the current DTA. It is simply money earned in Australia, and as a non resident for tax purposes, we already know the tax is 32.5% from $0 to $120,000, and not just for guys like "Paul Hogan." . Will27, you have misquoted me to some degree. Throughout lengthy debate on this subject, I have said in my opinion, firstly, it's only a matter of time before either political party passes the proposed changes. That leaves the process various departments will follow after the new legislation has be passed. Given the majority of us live in Thailand full time, I suggest after 183 days outside Australia it's clear that under the new legislation we will all be deemed to be non residents of Australia for tax purposes, and leaving the pension aside, that means any other income earned is up for 32.5%. However, under the DTA, you will be given "credit" on this tax should you "remit" the interest to Thailand. It's also clear that after 180 days inside Thailand, we are all residents of Thailand for tax purposes. It is interesting that Thailand is using a physical presence and time model, which is exactly what Australia will be moving towards. In my opinion, the process will roughly be this: The government will pass the new legislation. The government will announce the start date of the new legislation. Eg. 1st July 24, or 1st Jan 25 etc. There will be some notice given. After the start date, the clock starts on the 45 days (which may be changed to 90 by the Labor government) and the 183 days. After these days have passed, immigration computers inform Centerlink and the ATO of an Australian National being outside of Australia for these lengths of time. We already know this happens after 6 weeks for the pension supplements. A small tweak of the computer system and the same will happen after 45/90 days and after 183 days. Apart from your full name and date of birth, who knows what information the "chip" in your passport has, but for sure they will know you are outside of Australia, and for how long. Centerlink will not "enforce" anything. They will simply "withhold" the appropriate amount of tax on pensions, based on the current DTA and / or any future DTA. If Article 18 and 19 means no tax, carry on as normal. If the new DTA looks similar to the Germany DTA, I would think Centerlink would withhold 15% of the pension, most likely on a fortnightly basis. Centerlink will then forward the withholding tax to the ATO and it will go towards consolidated revenue. Back to the interest earned. I can't see the ATO informing the bank to withhold 32.5%, HOWEVER, if you don't supply a TFN they withhold 47%, so that infrastructure is already in place. Over the last few years we have all had to tell our banks if we are a resident of Australia or not, so something must be happening behind the scenes. Perhaps Immigration tell the ATO you are a non resident and the ATO sends out all the non resident TFN's to the banks and the bank withholds the 32.5%. Who knows? I just can't see interest earned being non resident tax free. I've been called "negative" here before, but I am similar to LosLobo in that, assume the worse, and everything else is a bonus when it comes to tax an bureaucracy, Basically, it's all designed to stop people like myself, and many others, from flying under the ATO radar. For the record, some of the above is FACT and some of the above in my OPINION. I am not saying I am right and you are wrong. It's all open to discussion and debate.

One was for the length of the post. The other, the first one, was because I posted the long list of ridiculous reasons many members first suggested as to why pensions would never be taxed, yet here we are, facing the very real possibility of pensions being taxed. If you check out your thread, you will see a particular member just wants to carry on the KH bashing on the new thread. He posted there is a $32,000 tax free threshold in Australia. I asked him where he got that from and posted the actual resident tax brackets and link. Straight into the bashing about how I am hijacking the thread etc. No mention of how my link is wrong etc etc. The long post that was deleted I discussed all of the points he raised and never took the p*ss out of him. The condensed post just specifically addressed his main points. He could have just replied with his own links and quotes, but no. It's more personal attacks, flaming, baiting, then trolling. As I said, I have never reported any post, from anyone, ever, and that is being taken advantage of by some.

Seriously? I'm on topic and not hijacking. I've commented on the points in your post. and supplied links as you requested. Taxation, residency, DTA's, percentages, thresholds, enforcement etc are all part of a taxation system that we are all in whether we like it, or not. This thread was launched to discuss such things with the people who wanted to. You are seeking to turn it into another KH bashing thread like the Australian Pension thread. If my post breaches forum rules, a Mod will delete it, but why personally attack me on a thread specifically set up to discuss taxation on pensions? You really have to stop thinking pensioners and pensions are a protected species. Times are changing and taxes are changing. I have posted a link in the other thread how Australia is currently updating all of its DTA's with contracting countries, Thailand being one of them. The Thailand DTA is dated 1989. It can't remain in place forever. At some stage it has to be updated as it's 35 years old. They are currently updating Korea, which was 1981, and from memory, Sweden, which was 1984. I would suggest updating Thailand's is not far away. By all means work with the current DTA, because that's the one in force at the moment, but there's nothing wrong considering, based on more recent DTA's, what the new DTA with Thailand may look like in the near future. Legislation and policies change, so do taxes and governments. Look how quickly Thailand implemented its new tax on foreigners remitting funds. If you think the DTA's with Germany and Iceland are irrelevant, that's your opinion. My opinion is different, and I have given them some consideration and explained why. Put me on ignore or don't read my posts, but why continue to personally attack me because I disagree with your opinions?

The tax is on the money, not the person. That's everyone from a pensioner, to Elon Musk. There are no thresholds to the tax. Eg. everything over 1 million baht a year, or over 100k baht a month. It's on all remitted funds from anyone, who could be from anywhere. The Germany DTA is interesting because it's actually the DTA that sets out the 15% tax, not the non resident tax brackets. The brand new DTA with Iceland is interesting because whilst Article 17 and Article 18 are similar to what is is in the Thailand DTA, it says this on the Treasury page. "The source (paying) country may also tax any pensions paid under the social security legislation or other public schemes organised for social welfare purposes of that country." Make of this what you will. Where did you get $32,00AUD from? Here's the Australian resident tax brackets. Here's the link where they came from. https://www.ato.gov.au/tax-rates-and-codes/tax-rates-australian-residents The pension is taxable, or as you say, "assessable." We know the pension is deemed an income. We know the pension is taxable. We know that living in Thailand we are non residents of Australia for tax purposes. We know the first tier of non resident tax is from $0 to $120,000 and is 32.5% tax. A new DTA with Thailand might be similar to the DTA with Germany and offer pensioners some tax relief from the 32.5% non resident tax. The Germany DTA clearly shows there's no free passes for non resident pensioners. Australia is currently updating all of its DTA's with contracting countries. Here's the link. https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/income-deductions-offsets-and-records/income-you-must-declare/government-payments-and-allowances Taxable pensions, payments and allowances You must include taxable Australian Government pensions, payments and allowances in your tax return. Taxable government payments, pensions and allowances include: age pension In relation to enforcement, they could tax all remitted funds into Thai bank accounts at the highest marginal rate, and then give a refund when the foreigner submits a tax return, or, they could take out tax at the end of the financial year, based on the flow of money through the account. If the balance is too low to pay the tax, they keep what's in the account and close the account and black list the foreigner from opening another account until they have paid their tax bill. That black list could also be sent to immigration, so no extension and you are an overstay until you pay your tax. They have many options available to them, and they don't have to chase anyone for the money. Foreigners will have to go to them. Resident tax rates 2023–24 Taxable income Tax on this income 0 – $18,200 Nil $18,201 – $45,000 19c for each $1 over $18,200

This has been discussed, but it's so easy to circumvent, how long before they tweak it?

I have consistently requested those not interested in discussing the issues of residency and taxation on the pension to block me, but they enjoy trolling, flaming, abusing, and personally attack me, so they don't block me. Maybe you will have better luck with your request.

Crunch some numbers on exchange rates and ATM fees. You may not have to "remit" anything and just run off an Aussie ATM card. It may end up cheaper and easier than entering the Thai tax system. The WISE ATM card is very reasonable. I would not be surprised if a nation wide Hawala banking system industry is created in Thailand. Basically, you send Aussie dollars online to someone with an Australian bank account, and then go to their shop in the city / town you live in Thailand and they give you Thai baht, minus some commission. Migrant workers in Thailand have been doing this for decades because the rates are reasonable and there's no fees. The gold shops might enter into this space, if they are not already. One could also go online and Western Union themselves their own money, but that's probably more costly. Perhaps accountants may offer a service where you remit the funds to them, and they give you Thai baht. Then, there's the 800k baht for the extension. It's possible many will pull that out and use agents. Why not put the tax on the 800k towards an agent and not even have to bother going to the Immigration Office? You will still be a Thai resident for tax purposes, but just have no money in Thailand for the Thai's to tax, which is funny because you are supposed to be able to show 65k coming in a month, or 800k in the bank, to show you can support yourself in Thailand, but TIT. It appears the only way they could truly scoop up tax on all remitted funds is by making the use of visa agent completely illegal, overnight, and that's not going to happen as it's too lucrative, and set to become even more lucrative now, and it goes all the way to the top.