twix38

I always bring a stock of English Mars bars and straight into fridge.

Mars bars here are truly horrible.

it's simply wrong and another example of providing the same service and charging foreigners extra. Acceptable in a state run monoply such as National Parks where tax pays for it, but unaceptable in a business offering an identical service.

Perhaps farang run businesses should also adopt dual pricing and charge Thai's extra for the extra costs imposed by all the rules and regulations to set up a business here and having to employ 4 Thai staff to every foreigner employed. I know we live in Thailand, but the same argument of business choice and practices could be employed to defend the rights of the foreign business to equally determine their own pricing structures. This would not last long before a visit from an off duty ploliceman etc, but charging foreigners more is seen as completely acceptable!!

The only certain thing (ridiculous examples apart) is that the playing field is not level, is racist and is set up to remove foreigners from their money ( charging them more if they want is one common method along with corruption, robbery and occasionally murder!)

Avoid all Tony's establishments until he adopts a uniform business practice.

I could just imagine my local Fitness First in UK stating that the special offer was only available to me and my Thai wife would have to pay another 30% for, well, for being a foreigner! I would go mental and we should feel the same here!!! It's wrong on principle, let alone morals, racism and good business ethics.

Songkran in Pattaya is great the first time. Fun the second, probably or maybe not and then a right pain in the butt!

It goes on too long at a week. 1 or 2 days is adequate.

For residents it ruins a whole week with the low life tourists generally going crazy. It's a fine idea for a day or 2 maximum.

Do not buy a condo in company name. Only in foreign name.

Personally I am not interested in company name at all, which means I would not pay 100,000 baht for one (10,000 maybe).

You would have a 2nd rate home liable to enforcement of rules on shraeholders and source of funds or changes in the future and difficult to sell. This as a bare minimum along with paying tax on company etc

This last week or so I have noticed that the speed of my TOT internet is noticably slower than usual and effecting performance bad enough to mention.

Is it only TOT and does anybody know why?

I'd like to report that I have had some 6 weeks or so without symptoms or medication until yesterday when the swallowing difficulty was just noticable again, barely.

I have started oemprazole and intend to continue for 2 to 3 weeks, as the previous 6 weeks have been great.

Should I continue for longer or is 2 to 3 weeks oemprazole with barely noticable symptoms fine?

I just want to nip it in the bud and then get the checks in UK when I return in a couple of months as Bumrungrad Doc and barium swallow have already given me the all-clear, as described.

Here is a link to my experience and there is a lot of valuable info and links in this thread. PM me for anything further

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=145801

Soundman,

I see your handle is business inspired too ;-)

You present a very fair and reasoned response. However, I am addressing the average foreign businessman who probably never thought about running a business until after he arrived in LOS.

Seems to me in summary that.......

If a business is prepared for the additional Red Tape, the expected additional foreigner issues (WP, visas etc), adhering to the Thai way (work mentality/degrees of corruption) and accepts in principle a degree of extra burden and financial calling, and all that has been listed in its various forms throughout this thread. Then with a good business model, political stability and enough finance and commitment, it can succeed.

I suspect that with hindsight even many relatively successfull operations may well say that they would not do it all over again if they had the knowledge then, that they have now.

Foreigners with a success story, content with their business lot in life and making a decent profit are rare enough and deserve applause for frankly having battled against the odds.

Just make sure the wife (&/or workers) doesn't then steal funds or the business premisies, that you either had to put in her name or perhaps fortunately you paid for a company and pay tax and meet the income requirements. Also make sure that jealous Thia's don't ruin the life of a successfull foreign enterprise who they deem to be doing too well and/or stealing clients. It's also well known here for the few who openly appear to be doing too well. Plenty of downside to business in LOS where the basic rules give control to any Thai involved (partner in the home and/or business) or you pay for the privalige to operate legally with a strict WP that is specific to your allowed role. I am not in business here (surprisingly) and accept I may get small details wrong, but you get the general and irrefutable point, at least on just how difficult and biased it all is. Perhaps rightly so for the indiginous population, but that does not mean you have to be one of the many foreign business failures here whose dreams die and whose finances are depleated.

Back to my core point, because most foreigners enticed by Thai life are ill-prepared for business anywhere, let alone here. It is the early impressions of ease, friendly locals, cheap living and good opportunities that entice, but they still need to generate an income to live here, so many foreigners look at business opportunities. Opportunities is the wrong word, as it should most often be replaced by the phrase "wealth destruction schemes".

We have not even mentioned key money and a legal system that works very differently to our own. There are different forms of title deeds and many ownership and business disputes arise that could not do in your home country. Care must be taken every step of the way and efficient translations of legal documents obtained.

I would speculate that around 85% to 95% of foreigners looking to set up or invest in a business in the Land of Scams (LOS) are unprepared and out of their depth, for all the above reasons and more. They are not going to make it work satisfactoraly in the end and to do so is extremely hard work and long hours. No fun at all and certainly nothing along the lines of a working holiday.

I would guess many regret their decision to invest in a business for all sorts of reasons, starting with their own stupidity at being so dreamy-eyed, gullible and niave moving through all the business headaches, stress and dissapointment through all that has been said (and still not yet said ) in this thread and problems with Thai employees and finally, in too many cases to financial loss and heartache.

A sad reality to keep in mind is that pride (or trying to sell on a business) often stops the foreigner admiting to certain facts and telling the truth of their business experience. Nobody likes to admit to their cock-ups for all to see. Especially when going home broke and, in just some instances, in crushing despair.

Motto: It is harder to run a successfull business here and not easier, as first impressions and salesmen often have you believe.

Needs checking but,

I had always thought you could not work on a retirement visa, but I was told that it is possible to have a work permit on a retirement visa.

I know no more other than you should investigate and get it answered officially by a visa company or immigration.

Not read all replies.

My advice is.

1. Open another Flex account and get another ATM card, which will have a full valid period and serve as a reserve.

2. If enough time still in UK, tell Nationwide your current card has been damaged (will not work) not stolen as account may be shut down. They will send a new card and expiry date will be for the maximum

3. Get neighbour or friend to sort out next new card(s) needed in 4 years or so at the time and registered address family or friend house in UK. They can forward to you or you may like a holiday back in the UK in 4 years time or so

Soundman,

I would be interested in a reply to post 24.

On reading a few other stories (one of a dog-kidnapp and 5,000 Baht finders reward springs to mind) I am of the opinion that we forigners should in future refer to Thailand only as LOS. Being in our case Land Of Scams!!!!

How very very true.

The LOS tag should stand for Land Of Scams!!

Why not get our own version of LOS into everyday modern conversation for foreigners.

I am very happy that you got your beloved dog back. This story not only pisses me off but also makes me cringe when I hear LOS referred to the Land of Smiles. The only time they are smiling is when they are either taking your money or after it!

torrenova,

I suspect most bright eyed (under informed) foreign investors would indeed not fit into the larger business operations and as you rightly point out and would find themselves further impinged by a lack of inward capital and building sufficient critical mass in their struggles.

There are also requirements to be reached on having made enough profit to continue with the visa, I believe.

I think it's along the line of a certain amount of profit (or turnover) in a 2 year period.

The downturn is another fundamental part of the risks involved, as there is potential political instability here which should never be overlooked as a possible source of future problems for foreigners.

If I can stop just one foreigner from making a big mistake by better understanding the real situation of business opportunities and operation and the many, yes I'll say it again MANY challenges in Thailand more clearly, then I am content.

It almost reaches a point where from a standing start, one may wonder just how many issues/facts are needed to be pointed out to damp down the enthusiasm of often niave foreigners with rose tinted glasses who know so very little of the real Thai business landscape and just how much of an uphill struggle business life is for the foreigner.

The details mentioned so far are actually far from complete, as there are, believe it or not, yet further reasons that doing business in Thailand has hidden and unpublicised risks. Let's not forget we are guests here in LOS and we have no rights in a country where the political landscape is uncertain.

Once you have a grasp of the "tilt of the playing field", then by all means invest in the knowledge of what you may experience. No problem (sucker, in most cases though).

Soundman,

What is the nature of your work? Does it require premisis in Thailand? Employing staff? (4 Thais must be employed for every foreigner), dealing with other Thai companies? Selling to Thais? Do you get the occasional visit from the Police to contribute?

This list could be enormous.

My point is that some business operations better suit Thailand because they are usually the ones that have least to do DIRECTLY with Thailand as a location or Thai suppliers etc. Not needing premises is another bonus of course and all that I have already refered to..............Your business model and operation are the key to your success and nothing to do with operating or a good business environment provided by the Thai authorities etc imho............. and then again some still succeed in spite of it all with a good business and good luck.

Nobody answered my previous question on the rule and law revisions we have regularly and how they all tighten up and make things harder for foreigners or put it another way, when was the last time a rule or law was initiated or inforced to help foreigners investing in business here. Ummm I can give lots of poor examples of visa rule updates, FBA proposals, company scheme enforcements, corruption examples..........................................

I'd like to do an internet business or a few others I can think of that cuts out large parts of the Thai hassle/corruption factor.

I suspect that your business success has nothing much to do with operating from Thailand in reality and you have overcome the obstacles and you mention a few new ones too. Thanks.

All credit to you, as you had a tested formula already and you are one of the lucky few or managed to bypass and overcome the host of deliberate (both just and unjust) limiting factors faced here as foreigner investors.

Tor Tor 3

Paperwork given (often have to request it, as I did) that allows you to show that funds were brought in from abroad for the purpose of a property purchase. Then on selling the property you are gracefully allowed to send the purchase price amount (after discussion on tax paid etc, probably a bit less and not any profit made) back to your home country.

Really a permit to allow you to return your own money to your own country, as otherwise you need a business permit or you cannot do more than 50,000 Baht per exit from LOS!!!

Before you ask LOS is Land of Smiles :-)

bino,

the difficulty comes from having brought in GBP and converted to Thai Baht, when it is your own hard earnt money from the UK which Thailand gratefully wants.

At some later date you may want to return some of it to the UK, possibly well in excess of 50k Baht.

Then you find you cannot do the reverse process of sending your own funds (originating from the UK) back to your own country (except by 50k lots each visit).

This is penal. The Thai authorities make it easy and attract foreign currency in, so I resent being told I cannot take it out when I want to unless I brought a property (TT3*) or have a business here.

*even then you can only take the purchase price abroad and not any profit. The purchase price has to agree on tax paid, so no work around when you sell, if you reduced the price to Land Office when bought. You then have the amount reduced that you can send home (that bit is fair enough, of course as I don't mind fair rules)

Now many foreigners would perhaps think to move a substantial part of their wealth into Thailand for their life here, so beware is yet again my message. Once it is done you cannot take it back legally.

Another smaller example is if you renovate condo(s) here and make a profit (all legal here I believe as you do not require a work permit) you are unable ever to send the money (profits) home above 50k.

So any scenario where you have funds here above 50k and no TT3 and no job/work permit, you are stuffed.

So, I refer to people who start a new life here. Sell assets abroad and bring in a lot of money and convert to Thai Baht. Bingo!! stuffed and monies cannot be sent home above 50k. Does everyone know this.......NO, they don't

Some people are not going to know about this and for a long time I did not. Thank God I became aware of all these other factors I mention early on and played safe from the start.

I have a condo in my own name and not the company scheme route, although it was touted as fine and secure when I was buying. The real issue is that it is illegal, as it was often practiced (a work around of the spirit of the law that foreigners cannot own land). There are 30+30 year leases etc, but Company schemes now fetch a lower price and it's a second tier market. How many foreignrs wish they had not invested quite so much money into a condo or house in a company scheme. We are all to blame here (not just Thais) but once again it is the eventual enforcement or threat to enforce an existing law which is causing the concern. Laws and Politics are a moving target which moves away from the foreigner a little more each time.

You know, the more I think about all the many little (and larger) issues like these, the worse it all seems to be for a foreigner wanting to do business or invest. It cannot be outright hostile because it would be obvious and investment would dry up (it is starting to), but to an informed and enlightened few, it is bad enough.

Come to Thailand it is great (truly) enjoy the weather, the people and the benefits. Have a great holiday, even if on a permanent or semi-permanent basis, but don't invest and don't join in one of the many ways on offer to take part in financial suicide that you may very well regret for the rest of your miserable and in all likelyhood much poorer life.

Xbusman,

It's no different here on the poor fundamentals of business success rates in general. They are very low as elsewhere.

However, the additional factors that also play their part, whilst many are reasonable rules on foreign competition, reduce the success rate even further. Then there are those additional issues that are mentioned that are not reasonable and can turn it into a real uphill struggle just to be able operate with locals on anything like a near even playing field as a foreigner.

My point is that on balance it is doubly (exaggerated) not worth the risk to make what in all likelyhood is a substantial investment and expect to flaut your own first rule of Thailand, just as double pricing for foreigners is yet another example of the ethos at work here.

I have no objection to the Thais looking after number one. I just think more of us should be fully aware of the dangers and pitfalls, when it is often touted and made to look easier and more possible than it really is. Let's not forget corruption and bribes to the Police either in all this.

come on,

I hear frequent stories that if competiton is doing very well and if foreign, they will receive a visit of some sort eventually. This will possibly ruin stock, set a fire (as in my 2 known examples). It's known that it is better to say and show that business is struggling than business is great and profitable. Once a foreigner starts doing very well, some Thai comes along to set the record straight in some way.

"I've always been asked by my bank to show my work permit when I want to TT money out of Thailand, as have others that I have worked with". Yes, it is not possible and very definately not at all easy to take your own money back home, so my case proven well enough. Be sensible and don't bring too much of it here in the first place!!

Let's not forget that my original warning was just as much for these 75% of silly and medium ill-thought out business operators and less so for well thought out good business models. However, the general issues of language, culture, visas and corruption, at the very least should make all potential businessmen think hard about investing the large sums involved. It's often a great deal of money that will have a serious effect on standards of living once lost and inevitably the owner will often throw more money at it to try to make it succeed, before realisation dawns.

All in all a very dangerous game, because what would ordinarily be unthinkable in your home country suddenly becomes a way to finance a stay, and easy, in Thailand.

My point: This is absolute Rubbish and I want most people to realise this before it is too late. There are just too many many reasons to keep your funds in your home country and just smile back at the Thai's whith the knowledge that you know the pitfalls outweight the likely realistic benefits in most cases.

I am not saying the Thai way is all wrong, though some of it obviously is very biased and unfair. Perhaps in the UK they should adopt some of the measures too to benefit the indiginous population, but we don't. Here in Thailand I am pointing out the obvious and the hidden pitfalls (and by no means all of them at all) and warning people that imho they should abstain in most cases from buying a business here.

ok, well I may be wrong, but I think legally there is a form of exchange control rules here that limit the amount of Baht leaving Thailand to 50,000 Baht without paperwork (Tor Tor 3). I don't know if itis only for cash.

My understanding is legally this is the limit to take out of the country without paperwork showing it was remitted originally from overseas (TT3)

I have heard of larger amounts being difficult and needing TT3 or not actually legal, even if it can possibly be done by wire/TT or not.

The actual point remains, that it is not straightforward and therefore it is, as I correctly stated, yet another issue to bear in mind if you thought to bring in your savings to Thailand.

Thanks and maybe somebody else knows for certain if this is just for cash and how much can be wired out etc?

(50k Baht maximum permitted out of country).

This isn't exactly correct.

50 K is the maximum cash / legal tender that you can take out of Thailand. However, you can wire transfer larger amounts without difficulty.

Yes, I know the failure rates for new business is dire everywhere.

My point is that in Thailand normal start-up business difficulties are further compounded and in very many ways make it even more likely to fail. A foreigner has extra requirements which frankly abound in many different forms, requirements and changes which further hamper his abilty to succeed and which he must additionally contend with/pay for/accept.

When was the last time a rule or law was changed that benefited a foreigner? Especially in business or to invest here?? Most of any rule changes are either smoke and mirrors or making it harder for foreigners.

I also noted some usual problems of business that exist here and added the Thailand effect on top

Your average Joe does come here and try, that's the exact and critical problem.

My aim was to warn him that although it may actually look easier/cheaper than at home. This is a falsehood.

It may well be cheap in comparision, but it is actually harder to succeed than the odds even you quote and stacked very much against him specifically because he is a foreigner. It is also not fully or readily apparent at first, or convieniently made workable with both clear and enforced rules.

I can't say I like any situation where I start a 100 yard race some 20 yards behind the locals and I am having to run mine uphill. I may still succeed, but the chances just got a whole lot less likely and the sums of money and repercussions involved can be crucifying. DON'T DO IT is my general advice and if you do, then make sure you know exactly what you are doing and letting yourself in for and that I think you are a fool - generally speaking.

Best of luck and keep smiling.

hey! it's just not a smart idea for the average Joe. END.

It is not a very smart idea for the "average joe" to get into business anywhere, let alone Thailand.

Statistics in most western countries show that that on average 80% of small business go bust within five years. Same statistics show that 5% succeed in the long term & 95% are relegated to professional careers, service or labour jobs.

So the argument I put forward is why would it be any different in Thailand?

95/5 rule is universal - 1 in twenty will do well, three in twenty will get by, another three in twenty will struggle & the rest belly up within eighteen months.

Soundman.

No, I have never had a business here, although I know a few owners (not beer bars, but medium specialised business) and I can see the difficulties and the hurdles and requirements and the empty places and dead places and lack of customers.

I did not just say it was all a Thai fault, I mentioned other factors too. The tipping point factors of a successfull business are the extras added by "Thailand. The land of smiles" franchise though.

As far as good businesses go where a proper business plan and large investment has been made. These do have a better track record and success rate, but still not good enough for the risks and are totally unacceptable with the grossly uneven playing field a foreigner is asked to play on. Most do not or cannot commit this amount of funds and of course the risk is also much greater as the investment increases. Not something I would ever entertain, however you want to view the franchise. I choose to conclude it is not in a foreigners best interest as a general principle of wealth creation or protection.

Trouble is that many of the real killers in business are not apparent at the start. I am thinking of rule changes, visa problems, spouse problems (they have rather a vested interest in many cases because of Thai law/language etc), non - enforcement to later change, corruption, culture differences, and more

hey! it's just not a smart idea for the average Joe. END.

I am lucky enough to be an observer only and this is my general conclusion.

Too many issues and risks on both a macro and a micro level. Risk/reward if you have to make a profit is just not favourable on starting out. Hence, why take such a big and unfair risk on??

Seems to me as we enter high season that many of the lower/middle end business operators (go-go, beer bar, small niche business, some restaurants etc) are having a particularly tough time to earn enough after costs, salaries and sundry expenses.

It has long been apparent to me that most business options here are usually non starters and establishments often change name and ownership to the next mug punter, but I am now of the opinion that even reasonable business have their work cut out breaking even or turning a worthwhile profit in Pattaya (and in Thailand).

The reasons are many and include over supply in certain areas and lower visitor numbers. Owners thinking they can do a business that they have little or no experience in and would never try at home. The totally unfair and unequal treatment of foreigners in every sphere of life and business life (corruption, rules on minimum tax paid and earning requirements linked to Business visa, costs, language and cultural barriers etc).

I just want to advise people that in my opinion you must think very hard before investing your time and hard earnt money into a business opportunity here. Then kick it into touch, if you need to make a profit.

The macro political and increasing zenophobic attitude and the rules and regulations make opportunties a poor bet.

Keep funds principally in your local currency and generate an income from an asset abroad (like renting out your home in UK or wherever). There are rules and requirements for everything here and they are seldom clear or worthwhile for a foreigner.

Unless you have a Tor Tor 3 (given only on property purchases) then you cannot even take your money home with you. (50k Baht maximum permitted out of country).

This is just touching the surface. It is Thailand and so it is up to them. It is up to you, if you take the risk. My advice is generally don't even give it a second thought. 7 out of 10 fail completely. 9 out of 10 are dissapointed and regret the decision.

This is Thailand and not Farangland. It is sooooooo far tilted in favour of Thai's that when you think you know the rules and laws and the Foreign Business Act and how to deal with the requirements and corruption. You still don't because things change. Some rules get enforced and some don't - until later that is when you never expected to be caught out.

If I had to set up a scam to relieve foreigners of money, I would give them hope and then slowly remove their opportunities with the kind of laws, amendments, visa rules (and amendments), FBA and amendments and none enforcement and then enforcement....and well, I'd name my scam franchise "Thailand. The land of smiles"

There are exceptions. Do you feel lucky?

I estimate 1 or let's say possibly 2 in 10 foreign buisnesses really succeed and have a content and a profitable owner who does not regret his decision. The rest (the other 8 or 9 ) do regret or lie to themselves and others. Then sell to the next mug punter.

Exactly the solution. Would be near impossible to implement due to vestige interests and City Hall refusal, but this is the answer. 50 - 70% reduction in Baht bus/Songthaw and introduce safe taxi meters to provide real competion and choice.

Shame on City Hall!!!

quote - It is up to the individual to weigh the risk versus the cost and make their own decision whether to ride

well it's not up to the individual actually because the modes of transport in pattaya are limited to baht bus or motorbike taxi both of which would be wiped out if metered taxi's where allowed to operate in pattaya, maybe not totally wiped out but certaintly dramatically reduced, I have come home from walking street many times with my girlfriend and if I had a choice between a motorbike taxi at 80baht for two people or a taxi meter for 40baht - well nothing more to say. As for baht busses - reduce the numbers by 70% let them remain on the main routes and allow the customer to decide between taxi meter - motorbike or baht bus

This would be a dramatic improvement on transport in pattaya.

sign me up + the wife

Thanks

thanks guys

I'll take a look