Nickymaster

But there is quite clear evidence that the DP is attempting to politicize the protest.

How dare they politicize the protest .. Aren't you happy that somebody is helping the rubber farmers who are clearly suffering?

A simple question: Why didn't the government dare to lower the buying price of rice to THB 12,000?

Oh my...

If you would have read the papers, you would have seen that the government went into direct negotiations with the rubber farmers, offered programs that were initially accepted by the representatives of the rubber farmers, but then by some of the protesters rejected.

That's politics - people protest, government negotiates. Negotiations break down, and will be taken up again. And then solutions may be found, or not. You saw, for example, that the government found amicable solutions for P-Move, by direct negotiations.

The Democrat Party's involvement now might complicate matters, and might not be too the advantage of the farmers demands, but more to their own primary goals, as stated in the original article, of "Our ultimate goal is to bring down the Thaksin regime."

But it's too early to make any final judgement on the case, as it's still ongoing.

You are amazing Nick.

And you haven't been here long enough that common practice is that you make a quick deal with a representative.... before the farmers wake up. This time they failed.. I hope you get what I mean.

The Democrat Party's involvement now might complicate matters, and might not be too the advantage of the farmers demands, but more to their own primary goals, as stated in the original article, of "Our ultimate goal is to bring down the Thaksin regime."

Pure propaganda Nick. let's leave it here. You clearly have a second agenda when posting on TV.

You are aware that most on this forum here support DP and Abhisit. Aren't we (also) representing the international community?

If Abhisit was so bad, why did Kofi Anan meet him early 2012 and support him. Who in the international community has ever said that Abhisit should face the court in The Hague because of what happened in 2010? (besides Robert Amsterdam, Thaksin and the Red shirts). There are many more articles written by the BBC and CNN (or anybody else in the world) that talk bad about the actions of Thaksin and his Red shirts. You don't remember?

And last but not least, it's not up to you to Judge Yingluck but you judge Abhisit on a daily basis. Strange. Just like you claim to have met everybody, seen it all, but have no images of the MIB.

Now I know that it doesn't make sense to debate Thai politics with you because you only support the reds.

http://kofiannanfoundation.org/newsroom/press/2012/02/statement-kofi-annan-and-martti-ahtisaari-their-visit-to-bangkok

You really seem to have reading and comprehension issues. In no way did Kofi Annan express support for Abhisit. The statement which you linked to is in support of ongoing efforts for reconciliation as he was invited by the TRCT, and spoke with both Abhisit and the opposition leader, met victims and stakeholders.

Read your own link, please, before making these claims.

And as to your question what a couple of serial posters here on thaivisa represent, i rather prefer not to answer.

Ah ok.

I assume that Kofi Annan in a way represents the International Community. Did he criticize or blame Abhisit for anything that has happened in 2010? You claim that the international community dislikes (or whatever) Abhisit.

Kofi Annan praises the TRCT report; Our view is that the TRCT is making an important contribution, one that remains highly relevant. And the Reds claim that the TRCT report is written to favor Abhisit...

Please stop talking for the world. Us foreigners can judge what the world thinks for ourselves.

Do you know what you wrote? Democrat MPs have been at the protest. Democrats MPs support the rubber farmers.

With evidence jonnie means: proof that the democrats use the rubber farmers to overthrow the government using violent tactics, as you stated in your earlier post. (I believe).

So clearly no evidence in your reply.

And, yet again, what you believe is wrong as you haven't read what i posted. I stated that the DP party is in alliance with the rubber farmers. Which it is.

I have stated that the rubber farmers have used violent tactics. Which they have - just watch the video clips.

There is no evidence that the DP has organized the whole thing, so far. But there is quite clear evidence that the DP is attempting to politicize the protest.

But there is quite clear evidence that the DP is attempting to politicize the protest.

How dare they politicize the protest .. Aren't you happy that somebody is helping the rubber farmers who are clearly suffering?

A simple question: Why didn't the government dare to lower the buying price of rice to THB 12,000?

This whole thing is a fight for survival for the radical parts of the DP. They have made a major strategical mistake with the hardline approach in 2010. While the Red Shirts may have lost the battle on the ground, they have won on all other battle fields, both inside Thailand, and internationally. The international perception over the DP has massively changed after 2010, and especially after the PT won the 2011 elections. Both Pueah Thai and Red Shirts have now beaten the DP at their own game - the creation of a positive international perception, while the DP is increasingly struggling in that aspect, especially by the constant defense against the indefinable - the refusal to acknowledge that soldiers killed unarmed protesters.

What we see right now, as expressed in this article, is a sign of utter desperation of the present powers of the DP.

Come on please stop with this propaganda. You are clearly looking desperate. Nobody in the international community has ever said something bad about the DP and Abhisit EVEN after the crackdown. For every article you can show me that the international perception about the DP has changed after 2010, I give you 2 articles about what the international press thinks about Thaksin and the Red shirts after 2010.

As you know most foreigners on this forum support DP and Abhisit.

I will tell you a secret, if this corrupt, self serving government keeps on mismanaging this beautiful country, they will bring themselves down. This could happen sooner than you think. Don't underestimate the mess this country is in at the moment. So far PT has done a lot of damage the last 2 years. Any PM with some dignity would have resigned by now. She is clearly not qualified.

Or do you think yingluck is doing a good job?

Of course i am aware that most on this forum here support DP and Abhisit.

There is a slight irony though that i may be the only person posting here who has talked with Abhisit and many other DP MP's on many occasions.

As to your claims on a positive international perception in the media after 2010 - is that why CNN and BBC and many other foreign publications were serial attacked by the DP, their supporters, and by many here on the forum as well. Don't you remember?

Have you read the recent Fuller article? The preceding Op-ed in the NY Times "Can Egypt learn from Thailand?" ?

On another level of foreign perception i would suggest to have a look at the level of diplomacy, look that straight after the 2011 elections countries that have barred Thaksin from entering have lifted that ban (such as Germany), look at the number of visits by foreign delegations before the 2011 elections, and after, especially the rank of members of these delegations. There are certain subtleties in diplomacy which probably might escape you.

So far Yingluck has managed to keep Thailand relatively peaceful, has somewhat smoothed over the strained relationship between PT and the military, so in those aspects she has done a good job. In the rice pledge conflict the government has not exactly done very well. But in the end - it is not up to me but entirely up to the Thai voters to decide if she has done a good or bad job.

You are aware that most on this forum here support DP and Abhisit. Aren't we (also) representing the international community?

If Abhisit was so bad, why did Kofi Anan meet him early 2012 and support him. Who in the international community has ever said that Abhisit should face the court in The Hague because of what happened in 2010? (besides Robert Amsterdam, Thaksin and the Red shirts). There are many more articles written by the BBC and CNN (or anybody else in the world) that talk bad about the actions of Thaksin and his Red shirts. You don't remember?

And last but not least, it's not up to you to Judge Yingluck but you judge Abhisit on a daily basis. Strange. Just like you claim to have met everybody, seen it all, but have no images of the MIB.

Now I know that it doesn't make sense to debate Thai politics with you because you only support the reds.

http://kofiannanfoundation.org/newsroom/press/2012/02/statement-kofi-annan-and-martti-ahtisaari-their-visit-to-bangkok

While, as expressed by Khunying Kalaya and the present powers of the Democrat Party - their ultimate goal is to bring down the Thaksin regime, inside and outside of the parliament (including in alliance with groups that have used clearly violent tactics - such as the Lumpini park group, or the rubber protesters in Nakhorn Sri Thammarat)

Unsurprising to hear echoing of red shirt leader/Deputy Agriculture Minister Nathawut uncorroborated and unproven assertion that the rubber farmers protests are a Democrat party plot to discredit the government.

This completely discounts their very valid and real concerns over price as well as completing ignoring the geographic spread of the rubber farmer protests, which now includes the red shirt heartland of Issan in Udon Thani and Korat.

Rather than properly respond to a valid issue in a responsible governmental manner, he attempts to flippantly dismiss it as portraying it as something else, without a shred of evidence.

No shred of evidence? Ridiculous.

Just read the papers and watch the news please - Democrat MP's were reported to have been at the protests, many Democrat MP's have openly declared their support, Blue Sky TV and T-News - both modeled by the Democrat Party and supporters on ASTV and Asia Update as propaganda spokes-pieces for the DP - are deeply involved, and openly take sides with the protesters (just watch their coverage - i spent several hours watching it yesterday night).

Do you know what you wrote? Democrat MPs have been at the protest. Democrats MPs support the rubber farmers.

With evidence jonnie means: proof that the democrats use the rubber farmers to overthrow the government using violent tactics, as you stated in your earlier post. (I believe).

So clearly no evidence in your reply.

^ His difficulty in being re-nominated can be for his lack of fresh appeal as much as his his 'moderate' views, can it not? Its not as f he did such a great job as governor and people were enthused by him running again.You are certainly right about Korn having greater ambitions, but in my memory his name was mentioned as a possible candidate, and I don't remember him turning it down, but Suthep (among others) insisting that Sukhumband be renominated.

If Abhisit is such an 'hard core ultra royalist conservative why is he hated by the PAD? Why did the PAD effectively work against the democrats in the last election if the democrats are as you say?

I think this ultra-royalist label is dished out too readily, anyone who says anything other than "amart they bad, oh so bad" is labelled an 'ultra-royalist'. Its almost cute the way its used.

In another era or country it would something akin to calling your political opponent a 'nigger-lover' or 'communist'.

I don't particularly like the democrats the way they are now, but I think their internal politics goes well beyond what you described. However you would know more than me, so I continue to read what you say with interest.

There is so much hate and negativity on both sides.

I don't think that Abhisit personally is an ultra-royalist. I think he is liberal-conservative. But he is deeply entrenched in the ultra-royalist factions, and at least on the stage, he increasingly uses their lingo. This becomes immediately obvious if you attend the Blue Sky rallies (more than 60 stages since their start in June 2012), and listen to the speeches.

Of course not all MP's in that group are ultra-royalists. I have spoken with many younger MP's - foreign educated, polished, intelligent, but with very little exposure to the life and culture of the common Thai citizen. But - they go along with this course, which i find very destructive, both to the DP itself, and the stability of the country.

The PAD - DP alliance is a on-off situation. In 2008 Abhisit personally, with Khunying Kalaya and others, walked from parliament to Government House, where they have helped stalling an ongoing dispersal action by the police, giving the PAD time to regroup, charge the police, and send the officers off the streets (and before anyone accuses me again of spreading Red propaganda - i was there and photographed it).

In 2011 the PAD has protested against Abihist. But already soon after the elections the different yellow shirt factions and subgroups have already organized events together (Siam Sammakhi, Pitak Siam, the rallies at parliament in May/June 2012 - where i photographed Suthep and other DP luminaries walking through the PAD, and being applauded by PAD protesters).

If you look at the DP/Blue Sky stages, and the different Yellow subgroup stages, you may notice for example that on many levels not just the same people attend, but that also many of the guards are shared. The relationship between the PAD, the different yellow subgroups and the DP is complex, and based more on a common hatred than any shared future vision over Thailand. Sort of - the enemy of my enemy is my friend. That is why the easiest common denominators are expressing what they hate, and the rallying call of protecting the monarchy.

This whole thing is a fight for survival for the radical parts of the DP. They have made a major strategical mistake with the hardline approach in 2010. While the Red Shirts may have lost the battle on the ground, they have won on all other battle fields, both inside Thailand, and internationally. The international perception over the DP has massively changed after 2010, and especially after the PT won the 2011 elections. Both Pueah Thai and Red Shirts have now beaten the DP at their own game - the creation of a positive international perception, while the DP is increasingly struggling in that aspect, especially by the constant defense against the indefinable - the refusal to acknowledge that soldiers killed unarmed protesters.

What we see right now, as expressed in this article, is a sign of utter desperation of the present powers of the DP.

There are many in the DP who did not agree with the hardline approach in 2010, and who would prefer to start over without Abhisit, and especially without Suthep.

As to Sukhumband and the position as Bangkok governor - nobody can do a stellar job in that position, as it is a job with almost no real power over anything. While he may not be "sexy" on the stage, no abilities to rouse the masses, i personally appreciate his intelligence, his fine sense of humor, his very moderate views - all points that do not suit the present course of the DP.

This whole thing is a fight for survival for the radical parts of the DP. They have made a major strategical mistake with the hardline approach in 2010. While the Red Shirts may have lost the battle on the ground, they have won on all other battle fields, both inside Thailand, and internationally. The international perception over the DP has massively changed after 2010, and especially after the PT won the 2011 elections. Both Pueah Thai and Red Shirts have now beaten the DP at their own game - the creation of a positive international perception, while the DP is increasingly struggling in that aspect, especially by the constant defense against the indefinable - the refusal to acknowledge that soldiers killed unarmed protesters.

What we see right now, as expressed in this article, is a sign of utter desperation of the present powers of the DP.

Come on please stop with this propaganda. You are clearly looking desperate. Nobody in the international community has ever said something bad about the DP and Abhisit EVEN after the crackdown. For every article you can show me that the international perception about the DP has changed after 2010, I give you 2 articles about what the international press thinks about Thaksin and the Red shirts after 2010.

As you know most foreigners on this forum support DP and Abhisit.

I will tell you a secret, if this corrupt, self serving government keeps on mismanaging this beautiful country, they will bring themselves down. This could happen sooner than you think. Don't underestimate the mess this country is in at the moment. So far PT has done a lot of damage the last 2 years. Any PM with some dignity would have resigned by now. This one is clearly not qualified.

Or do you think Yingluck is doing a good job?

While, as expressed by Khunying Kalaya and the present powers of the Democrat Party - their ultimate goal is to bring down the Thaksin regime, inside and outside of the parliament (including in alliance with groups that have used clearly violent tactics - such as the Lumpini park group, or the rubber protesters in Nakhorn Sri Thammarat)

Unsurprising to hear echoing of red shirt leader/Deputy Agriculture Minister Nathawut uncorroborated and unproven assertion that the rubber farmers protests are a Democrat party plot to discredit the government.

This completely discounts their very valid and real concerns over price as well as completing ignoring the geographic spread of the rubber farmer protests, which now includes the red shirt heartland of Issan in Udon Thani and Korat.

Rather than properly respond to a valid issue in a responsible governmental manner, he attempts to flippantly dismiss it as portraying it as something else, without a shred of evidence.

Bravo!

Nick has full understanding of tactics used by his fellow red shirts to get attention but rubber farmers , who have been begging to be heard for more than a year know, are labeled as a group that wants to overthrow the government with violent tactics.

The rubber farmers only need help. They don't care who is the government.

This is where the democrats need to rethink their position. Why appose electing all senators and changing the lese majeste laws? It would seem in many instances their name of democrats does not represent their views.

How about this? Since PT has a majority vote in the house they should change the laws in such a way that they will be allowed to elect judges.

That would be very democratic right?

Talk is easy

Funny how MPs from the north/northeast are allowed to support rice farmers when they demonstrate, but MPs from the south cannot support the farmers from the south :-)

Anyway, the problem is exactly the same as that for the rice farmers, so why should the rubber farmers settle for anything less than the rice farmers?

The rice farmers get appx. 40% above market price, so obviously the rubber farmers should get 40% above market price too.

Even worse. Look at what this criminal has to say about the rice buying.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-09-24/thai-rice-policy-should-stay-several-more-years-thaksin-says.html

Complaining to TCP can be done concurrent to waiting.

I'm amused a bit that you are so tolerant . It seems you given up on photos too. But my inner feeling tells me you will get back your phone repaired before or on the day they have promised and your photos will be safe. However, do inform them that there is a content and if possible they won't perform a system reinitialization that would remove those dear photos from your trip.

Don't get me wrong, I am not tolerant at all just a bit restricted in my actions since I have to rely on others to chase for me since I am not Thai and the people at HTC always play dumb when I try to talk to them in English.

My office staff just called the call center and told them that they have to give back the phone next week (as earlier promised). They said that because there was a long waiting cue, they could not promise that.... We asked their address to file complaints (send a letter) and they told us they were not allowed to say where their office is. If we wanted to complain we had to do it by e-mail.

After a long argument, the lady promised to give us an update later today.

If they call back and give us a later date than next week, we will not accept the phone anymore. We are going to make that very clear.

Will keep you posted.

Just as wrong as what the reds were doing, I am pro democrat and anti red but there is no reason to act like this. I do feel however there are 2 standards they don't seem to go after red shirts doing the same and even say that democrats should not protests because they cant protect them.

Still both parties need to grow up but this country thugs rule and they have seen it before and are copying it.

Agree. But the Red shirts (dressed in red) could have easily avoided passing by the Anti Thaksin protest site.

FM Surapong suggests 'photo visa' to stop criminals entering Thailand

What's wrong with the current method? Are you a criminal? Are you trying to create a civil war? OK here is your visa/passport. Welcome to Thailand!

It's about time for the Democrats to do something, they can't just sit by and let Thaksin take over this country.

Ahh, like perhaps winning an election?

Once Abhisit masters the concept of winning an election he can bring his platform to the people.

Another good old GK comment. Don't you see that this country is being mismanaged? Complete industries are being destroyed.

I think the photo in the OP says everything that needs to be said about the red shirts.

As usual......they are the victims.

well at least they didnt use guns and grenades like their own "brothers" did, its great to see that they are getting some of their own butlike all cowards they are now crying because they were hurt, poor things.

They are crying because they know the (Thaksin) police is on their side. Wouldn't surprise me if Tharit from the DSI is going to look into this. (seriously).

However, Khon Kaen Senator Prasert Prakoonsuksapan, who attended the forum, called on the government to make rampant corruption its first priority.

"Only I and another member raised this in the forum, and the PM just responded by saying 'I will ensure transparency'. This is far too vague. I want to know exactly how the PM can combat corruption," he said.

Another typical Yingluck comment.

Why doesn't Yinguck have some dignity and resign for the good of the country. She is clearly unqualified. She has been mismanaging this country for 2 years now. Let's hope this is the price Thailand has to pay before the majority understands that the Shins CANNOT improve the lifes of Thais. She has destroyed complete sectors and just keeps on spending and smiling. Very dangerous lady.

Things are escalating at the roadblock at Cha Uat now. According to latest reports an ambulance arrived and the men dressed as orderlies asked to be let through. They were allowed, but when they passed they out and were waving guns. From the other side two more vans showed up with armed men. They started shooting in the air with M16 rifles. Protesters scattered. Some people were shot including an 8 year old kid. Then the armed men grabbed 10 protesters and took them with them in the vans.

Wow? This is crazy if true.

Crazy indeed. Sounds like the police state is slowly taking shape.

I have to admit that I wasn't here in Thailand in the 70s. Vocational students from the 70s would now be well into their 60s and it is a false argument - as usual - to imply that modern day vocational students are 'Red Guars' or any other historical label.

AS usual, Nick Nostitz & his arrogant think-alike try to make anything the anti-Thaksin people do seem undemocratic with the ''they are as violent as the reds' BS thrown in.

I doubt that either of the above really know what percentage of current vocational students are violent and what percentage are not. But, no matter, the oracles have spoken and their opinions outweigh hard evidence.

Personally, just about anything is justified in bringing down the Shin clan - as distinct from the PTP which was a real political party - under a different name - before it became a cult. Old Chavalit was a doddery fool but, under him, there was a semblance of consensus & collective decision making.

It's a sort of a 'man bites dog' tale to hear of red shirts being attacked - if they really were.

There more than sufficient hard evidence that on many occasions also members of the different yellow shirt groups have initiated violence, and have killed people. So yes, both sides are as violent (or peaceful) as the other.

The mechanics under vocational school student violence has not changed in decades. The label does not matter - what matters is that they have been actively drawn in by the groups in Lumpini Park (to which the Democrat Party has openly allied itself). The vocational school students joined under the exact same motto they have joined in the mid 70's the Kranting Daeng: to protect the monarchy. I have yesterday photographed a group swearing to exactly that at the statue at Lumpini Park, and asked them as well why they joined. Their answer was that they are not particularly interested in politics, but want to protect the monarchy.

As to the age gaps - you should know that in Thai society in the formation of peer groups there is a lifelong bond between "Lun Pi" (the elder generation), and "Lun Nong" (younger generation), in which respect has to be given to ones elders who in turn are responsible to look out for the young (there is a particular term in Thai defining this particular relationship which presently escapes me). This is custom is very strong under vocational school students.

Given that one of the main points raised on Democrat Party stages, especially by the in the article mentioned Nipit Intarasombat (i would suggest to listen to his speeches, if you can understand Thai), is the protection of the monarchy and the accusation that the government and the Red Shirts are disloyal - certain parallels to the 1970's are rather obvious, and should not be dismissed.

This conflict goes far deeper than "the Shin clan" - it is a continuation of decades of social conflicts within Thai society. This would be quite clear if you listen to the speeches of both sides' stages, and even more obvious if you would read up on the background of Thailand's past conflicts (in which many leaders and ordinary protesters in both Red and Yellow have participated).

There more than sufficient hard evidence that on many occasions also members of the different yellow shirt groups have initiated violence, and have killed people. So yes, both sides are as violent (or peaceful) as the other.

Come on Nick, as violent? The yellow shirts have been as violent as the Reds have in 2010? When? The yellow shirts have been violent but how can they be as violent as the Red shirts?

Who would ever take you serious with such biased comments Nick? (or is credibility not your aim?)

Or are you saying that they are as violent BUT the Red shirts have destroyed much more property and killed more people?

Writing a serious letter will cost you and so it's the second step. The first step is to simply threaten them will legal action, see if it will work.

>I am going to ask for a new phone or money back. Which is the only fair and correct option in my >opinion.

I think you underdemand. You have to demand immediate issuance of a new HTC ONE because your phone stopped working just within two weeks and their repair service is seriously under-facilitated. AND let the technicians to open the broken one and to transfer you the photos. I see no reason why you should lose the photos, since its the display that stopped working and not the memory.

At the same time, maybe to read / post at some technical forum (wonder if there is a forum dedicated to HTC ONE) and to post the question of how to gain access via Bluetooth/USB to the HTC ONE in your situation.

On the broader view, initiating a legal action is a good idea, as it will not only benefit yourself, but will teach HTC a lesson that will result in their more responsible approach to customers particularly in Thailand. Probably to get a compensation for the ordeal and lose of photos.

As you have posted, on Thai forums there are many HTC ONE customers that experience the same situation, if the interested ones would join into one group and hire a lawyer..

(And you may also complain to

Complaint Unit, TCP

The Telecommunication Consumer Protection , TCP at their e-mail:

[email protected]

I'm not sure if they are dealing with providers or the manufacturers as well. Once I complained regarding AIS that refused to refund me money for some issue and the result was that AIS refunded me even more than I was asking. I think though legal action is the best way, as it will most probably benefit yourself and other people.)

Thanks for the advise. Last time we have been told by HTC that the phone would be ready on Wednesday September 4. Exactly 4 weeks from the date I brought it to them. I will have someone call them tomorrow and tell them if my tel is not fixed by that date I want to have a new one or money back. Will also tell them that I will not accept the phone at a later date and will start with informing the TCP or any other body that could put pressure on them.

Why are they not calling it a Amnesty-For-Thaksin forum?