Carmakers face electric reality as combustion engine outlook dims

[Dumbastheycome]

7 hours ago, Kevbo said:

Actually I do give a _uck about clean air my vehicle isn't diesel and returns very good mpg. I will say it again for all you out there that are hard of listening ..... I like concept of electric vehicles but only when the infrastructure is in place, as enjoyed by our Californian friend who posted earlier

I  can  well  understand  that  you  do   give  a.... whatever. The  reality  is  that  electric  vehicles  are   not  going  to  be  an instantaneous   infliction.  The  infrastructure  will  grow  will  the   market as   did  the  petrochem  services. In  fact  it   will  have  to  be   very competative  in the  face  of  alternative domestic  resources.  The  petrochem industry  has had  a  monoply  on energy  sales  hence  its   profit and  power. A  good  percentage  of  the   consumer  public  has   access  to  a  simple  cable. Before  they did  not  have  a personal oil well or  a  refinery.

Long  haul transportation   will  continue  to  depend  on   petrochem.

What  happens  in  terms  of  supply   for  either  energy   market  is  obviously  open to  debate.

 

[Kevbo]

9 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

I  can  well  understand  that  you  do   give  a.... whatever. The  reality  is  that  electric  vehicles  are   not  going  to  be  an instantaneous   infliction.  The  infrastructure  will  grow  will  the   market as   did  the  petrochem  services. In  fact  it   will  have  to  be   very competative  in the  face  of  alternative domestic  resources.  The  petrochem industry  has had  a  monoply  on energy  sales  hence  its   profit and  power. A  good  percentage  of  the   consumer  public  has   access  to  a  simple  cable. Before  they did  not  have  a personal oil well or  a  refinery.

Long  haul transportation   will  continue  to  depend  on   petrochem.

What  happens  in  terms  of  supply   for  either  energy   market  is  obviously  open to  debate.

 

What is a good percentage ? I have never felt the need to own a personal oil well, I simply go to a local service station and fill up, all the dirty work has been done for me, very convenient.

I don't fancy being stranded in the middle of nowhere while waiting for the infrastructure to grow...

[sirineou]

On 9/12/2017 at 9:49 AM, canuckamuck said:

Not to mention the resources required and the waste produced by all those batteries and the production of the electricity. Not green at all. So just another round of cognitive dissonance from the climate apocalypse bogeyman.

IMO it is Green on several fronts.

internal combustion exhaust pollution is concentrated at urban locations where people live and drive and is difficult to contain   spreading throughout the planet with the associated problems.Also fossil fuels are not a renewable energy source. where electricity can be produced from renewable sources.

Electric car battery production  will be accomplished outside urban centers, removing the pollution from where people live and play. furthermore such pollution is more easily managed and contained.   

 

 

[janclaes47]

4 minutes ago, sirineou said:

internal combustion exhaust pollution is concentrated at urban locations where people live and drive and is difficult to contain   spreading throughout the planet

 

4 minutes ago, sirineou said:

Electric car battery production  will be accomplished outside urban centers, removing the pollution from where people live

And of course that pollution doesn't spread throughout the planet.

 

And what they gonna do with the massive poisonous waste from the batteries that have to be replaced every so many years?

Edited September 15, 2017 by janclaes47

[sirineou]

1 minute ago, janclaes47 said:

 

And of course that pollution doesn't spread throughout the planet

 As far as I know, not to the extent of combustion engine exhaust. 

 

CO2 is removed by the trees. 

Trees die and are buried and so is the CO2 

   Trees turn into fossil fuels, most of which is released into the atmosphere in large part by cars, and mostly in cities.

We can all agree atmospheric pollution is difficult to contain , Right?

  Even though I agree that there is pollution associated with the production of batteries,  we can all agree that it does not happen in urban centers, where people live. IMO a good thing.

  Such pollution is less atmospheric and easier to contain , further more it requires the use of less fossil  fuels    leaving the sequestered CO2 where it belongs underground.

All good things IMO, of course I could be wrong  and would love to hear how.

 

 

 

[sirineou]

22 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

And what they gonna do with the massive poisonous waste from the batteries that have to be replaced every so many years?

Sorry you added that part later and i did not see it in my reply.

poisonous waste would be removed from urban centers IMO a good thing, and should be easier to contain than poisonous waste pumped into the air we breath.

That's an engineering problem , easier solved than atmospheric pollution.pollution .

Battery replacement pollution can be controlled through recycling where spend fossil fuel is difficult to recycle.  . 

, 

 

[Dumbastheycome]

21 hours ago, Kevbo said:

What is a good percentage ? I have never felt the need to own a personal oil well, I simply go to a local service station and fill up, all the dirty work has been done for me, very convenient.

I don't fancy being stranded in the middle of nowhere while waiting for the infrastructure to grow...

The  answer   for  your  situation is   very  simple.  Don't  buy  one.

[Kevbo]

1 hour ago, Dumbastheycome said:

The  answer   for  your  situation is   very  simple.  Don't  buy  one.

Last word freak ....

[VocalNeal]

Mercedes F1 engine hits new 50% thermal efficiency benchmark on dyno

Mercedes' Formula 1 engine has hit a landmark achievement on the dyno at its Brixworth factory after breaking the 50 percent thermal efficiency barrier for the first time.

The achievement is evidence of the huge strides that have been taken by the German car manufacturer in making improvements to its power unit, which is the most efficient racing engine in history.

Thermal efficiency has become a key target for modern engine builders, and is calculated on the amount of useful energy that can be produced from a given amount of heat input.

In modern F1 it has become particularly important because there is a strict fuel flow limit rate of 100kg per hour.

The 50 percent efficiency of the Mercedes F1 engine makes it one of the best internal combustions in the world too.

It is now approaching levels of thermal efficiency reached by diesel engines used in large container ships – although gas turbines can deliver more than 60 percent efficiency.

The 50 percent mark, which has not yet been reached on track, is much higher than the 30 percent efficiency that old normally aspirated engines produced.

When F1's new turbo hybrid formula arrived in 2014, Mercedes engines had a conversion rate of 44% - and it has delivered gains since then too.

In a column on Mercedes' official F1 website, the team said: "The old-fashioned, naturally aspirated engines peaked at 29 percent thermal efficiency during the V8 era - while the last time we saw these levels of power in Formula 1 was back in 2005, with a V10 that guzzled fuel at a whopping 194kg/hr. To halve the fuel flow rate for the same amount of power is quite something."

"Three and a half years after making its debut, the Mercedes-AMG F1 power unit has now achieved a conversion efficiency of more than 50 percent during dyno testing in Brixworth.

"In other words, it now produces more power than waste energy - a remarkable milestone for any hybrid, and especially a flat-out racing engine. Compared to 2014, the power output is 109 horsepower greater using the same amount of fuel."

Mercedes has used a version of its F1 engine in its new Project ONE road car, which has a thermal efficiency of 40 percent.

 

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-f1-engine-hits-new-benchmark-on-dyno-952330/

 

"Electric cars are seen as green and the solution to all carbon emissions, but they are absolutely not," Lowe told ESPN. "It all depends where you get the electricity from and in a typical country with a regular profile of electricity generation, a Formula One car is massively more efficient than any electric car being charged from a power plant which is burning hydrocarbons. It is incredible that we've done that, but nobody is really talking about it that much."

 

 

[cooked]

3 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Mercedes .....

 

"Electric cars are seen as green and the solution to all carbon emissions, but they are absolutely not," Lowe told ESPN. "It all depends where you get the electricity from and in a typical country with a regular profile of electricity generation, a Formula One car is massively more efficient than any electric car being charged from a power plant which is burning hydrocarbons. It is incredible that we've done that, but nobody is really talking about it that much."

 

 

Agreed. What also isn't discussed is the problem of recycling, including that of solar panels which is going to be a major problem (because not cost efficient, at present... MILLIONS of tons on their way to the tip in 30 years time.

Maybe we can get third world countries to look after that for us...

Cloud cuckoo land (at present).

[Ace of Pop]

I still aint appy with Diesel Engines in Cars. Trucks n Tug Boat  is where they belong.

[Dumbastheycome]

23 hours ago, Kevbo said:

Last word freak ....

lol. 

[Mattd]

The issue with countries like UK stating that they will go 'electric' by 2040 is going to be infrastructure.

On a recent trip back to the UK I hired a car via Thrifty and was given a BMW 330e, which was OK as a vehicle, my own personal thoughts were that I did not particularly like Hybrid cars, none of the driving modes allow you to totally turn the electric drive side off, which I found annoying and when in town, dangerous.

The only way of charging the 330e, with the supplied charging lead, is via a 13A household UK style plug socket, they do not supply a lead that can be used at the charging points on motorway service areas etc. (you can purchase one apparently).

This all sounds fine and I suppose it would be if you have access to a 13A socket, I did not as I was staying at hotels for the duration.

The car does not charge the batteries from the energy, it does put some charge in through braking (KERS type system), by the end of the 10 day hire the car was screaming out to be properly charged and the batteries were critically low.

I drove it in the 'save battery' mode for 99.99% of the time, to try and conserve the battery life.

This got me thinking about the change to electric / hybrid vehicles by 2040 and the shear logistical nightmare of achieving this.

For example, the first hotel I stayed at had car parking for around 150 cars and was pretty full for the 4 nights I stayed there, every car parking space is going to have to have a charging point, so that guests can charge their cars, plus some sort of metering system, so they can pay for the electricity.

Terrace houses, how do they charge their vehicles, strew wires across the pavement? This will also encourage kids to play pranks and unplug the cars, or folks stealing the electricity, oh and a tripping hazard .

Flats etc. again, how to provide charging points for each vehicle in these situations.

There have been studies carried out on the effect on the National grid of millions of cars being plugged in, right now it could not cope.

 

The question also comes, are these vehicles really and truly more environmentally friendly, current battery technology means fairly short journeys between charges and something has to produce the electricity needed to power these vehicles, be it produced by hydrocarbons, wind, nuclear or hydro, of those choices only hydro is sort of friendly, the wind turbines look horrible.........!!

not to mention the Lithium mines, which are a horrendous eyesore that can never be disguised.

 

I drove the 330e for about 1,100 miles, a lot of those on Motorways and it returned 38.8mpg, so not exactly frugal! (My car here does around about 17km per litre)

 

[BEVUP]

On 9/13/2017 at 1:32 PM, johng said:

There is enough coal,gas and oil + bio fuel to last a long time yet
modern internal combustion engines are still improving cleanliness and efficiency.
They should wait until a breakthrough battery technology or best hydrogen fuel cells which can directly convert water to power + oxygen.

Yes what ever happened to the Hydrogen developments, that would be the best way to go 

[VocalNeal]

^ But don't we have to use huge amounts of fossil fuel generated electricity to produce hydrogen?

[johng]

^ But don't we have to use huge amounts of fossil fuel generated electricity to produce hydrogen?

No you could use thermal,hydro,solar,wind,wave,bio gas to mass produce hydrogen then maybe have an onboard top-up generator using energy from breaking as they already do to recharge batteries.
Instead of petrol pumps you would have hydrogen pumps..safety would have to be very stringently enforced
remember the Hindenburg ?

[BEVUP]

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

^ But don't we have to use huge amounts of fossil fuel generated electricity to produce hydrogen?

No apparently they were a in built unit in the vehicle & you just top up with water

[sirineou]

On 9/17/2017 at 12:22 AM, cooked said:

Agreed. What also isn't discussed is the problem of recycling, including that of solar panels which is going to be a major problem (because not cost efficient, at present... MILLIONS of tons on their way to the tip in 30 years time.

Maybe we can get third world countries to look after that for us...

Cloud cuckoo land (at present).

what is the problem with recycling solar panels?

[cooked]

 I read  a report from China saying that recycling solar panels would cost more than the value of the materials recuperated and in thirty years or so will present a huge problem with millions of tons of the things coming to the end of their life. 

  However googling "recycle solar panels" gives a different result. At first.

  I don't really trust Google. I did find this though, which gives a different slant on it: http://business.financialpost.com/commodities/energy/solar-panel-makers-grapple-with-hazardous-waste-problem