Carmakers face electric reality as combustion engine outlook dims

[Jonathan Fairfield]

Carmakers face electric reality as combustion engine outlook dims

By Laurence Frost and Edward Taylor

 

 

FRANKFURT (Reuters) - European car bosses gathering for the Frankfurt auto show are beginning to address the realities of mass vehicle electrification, and its consequences for jobs and profit, their minds focused by government pledges to outlaw the combustion engine.

 

As the latest such announcement by China added momentum to a push for zero-emissions motoring, Daimler, Volkswagen and PSA Group gave details about their electric programmes that could give policymakers some pause.

 

Planned electric Mercedes models will initially be just half as profitable as conventional alternatives, Daimler warned - forcing the group to find savings by outsourcing more component manufacturing, which may in turn threaten German jobs.

 

"In-house production is almost irrelevant to the consumer," Daimler boss Dieter Zetsche told reporters on the eve of the Frankfurt auto show, in the midst of a German election campaign in which automotive jobs have loomed large.

 

The company set a target of saving 4 billion euros ($4.8 billion) by 2025 to help fund the cost of its electric cars.

 

"Daimler is the first company to state explicitly how much electric vehicles are going to hurt margins," said Bernstein analyst Max Warburton. "It was brave to go first - but of course it won't be the last."

 

Volkswagen (VW), for its part, said it was seeking new global supplier contracts to source 50 billion euros ($60 billion) of electric car content including batteries, which are not yet manufactured competitively in Europe.

 

"A company like Volkswagen must lead, not follow," Chief Executive Matthias Mueller told reporters.

 

VW diesel emissions-cheating exposed by U.S. regulators in 2015 triggered global public outrage, dozens more investigations into test-rigging by the wider industry and a push by some lawmakers to ban diesel and eventually all engines.

 

TIGHTENING NOOSE

 

Tesla Inc shares jumped nearly 6 percent on Monday after a Chinese minister said it was a question of when, not if, Beijing bans fossil-fuel cars, tightening the noose around the combustion engine. France and Britain have promised its outright abolition by 2040.

 

But PSA, the maker of Peugeots and Citroens, said it was concerned about the risks if consumers were left behind in the rush, and a new generation of battery cars does not sell.

 

"If it doesn't gain acceptance in the market, then everybody - industry, employees and politicians - has a big problem," PSA Chief Executive Carlos Tavares said in a pre-show interview with German weekly Bild am Sonntag.

 

While Tesla has carved itself a successful premium niche, electric vehicles have yet to penetrate mass markets, with the heavily subsidised exception of Norway, and still account for less than 1 percent of global car sales.

 

Automakers have sought to adapt to the changing tide - and in some cases distance themselves from "dieselgate" - by announcing multibillion-euro investments in electric cars, underpinned by plans to sell millions within a decade.

 

A year into the scandal, VW unveiled plans to develop 30 new electric cars and sell 2-3 million annually by 2025. On Monday it upped the goal to 80 models and said it would need four times the capacity of Tesla's "gigafactory" to supply their batteries.

 

JOBS FLIGHT

 

Since the battery is the single biggest-value item in an electric car, however, experts point out that mass adoption would shift business and jobs from European suppliers to China, which already dominates the automotive power-pack market.

 

According to consulting firm AlixPartners, electric drivetrains including batteries require 40 percent less manufacturing labour than mechanical ones. That would hit 112,000 jobs at European suppliers, even before any outsourcing.

 

A phase-out of combustion engines by 2030 could cost 600,000 jobs in Germany alone, the country's Ifo economic institute has warned. Chancellor Angela Merkel, on course for re-election on Sept. 24, said she was "no friend of bans", in a Berliner Zeitung interview published on Tuesday.

 

Speaking to a television audience of voters on Monday evening, Merkel said the industry would need support in its transformation. "The government still has to do more to set incentives," she said, without giving details.

 

Any deepening of the doubts surrounding mass electric car uptake could vindicate Fiat Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne - one of the few car bosses who has largely resisted the plug-in vogue.

 

"My aversion to electrification was based on pure cost issues," Marchionne told analysts recently, predicting that stubbornly high battery costs would combine with tightening combustion-engine regulation to choke off overall sales.

 

Independent analyst Richard Windsor warned that far from boosting the industry, the shift to electric cars - which are expected to last longer than combustion-engined equivalents and require less maintenance - could inflict long-term damage on it.

 

"Vehicle makers are queuing up to announce their commitment to electric vehicles but at the same time they may be cheering for their own demise," he said.

 

($1 = 0.8358 euro)

 

(Additional reporting by Andreas Cremer and Georgina Prodhan in Frankfurt and Emma Thomasson in Berlin; Writing by Laurence Frost and Mark Potter; Editing by Matthew Lewis and Louise Heavens)

 

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-09-12

[connda]

I'd love to know how the plan to generate enough electricity to covert from gas/diesel to electric.  Best of luck on that.  That requires a total restructuring of the electric grid.  Now, who talks about that?  Nobody.  Think about it.  

[kotsak]

It's a folly 

[JAS21]

44 minutes ago, connda said:

I'd love to know how the plan to generate enough electricity to covert from gas/diesel to electric.  Best of luck on that.  That requires a total restructuring of the electric grid.  Now, who talks about that?  Nobody.  Think about it.  

Quite some problems ahead ... as above plus a shortage of generating capacity ... most coal station have been shut down. Same with oil and gas. And the problem of having too much non-synchronous generation is looming ...

Edited September 12, 2017 by JAS21

[canuckamuck]

Not to mention the resources required and the waste produced by all those batteries and the production of the electricity. Not green at all. So just another round of cognitive dissonance from the climate apocalypse bogeyman.

[Slain]

I would imagine most of the electric vehicles would be charged over-night when demand is lowest.

[Dumbastheycome]

So  there  will  be  either  a  shift  in  the  base  of  existing   cartels   or  the  initiation  of   new  ones  in the   wroughting  of  the  energy   market. 

Price   wise, visible pollution  wise  it  will  initially  be  attractive.

But  I predict  that  eventually  the  individual personal  mode  of  transport  will  become a  relic.  Along  with  personal  individuality.

 

[Kevbo]

1 hour ago, connda said:

I'd love to know how the plan to generate enough electricity to covert from gas/diesel to electric.  Best of luck on that.  That requires a total restructuring of the electric grid.  Now, who talks about that?  Nobody.  Think about it.  

Not to mention the ridiculously low number of charge points

[Dumbastheycome]

2 minutes ago, Kevbo said:

Not to mention the ridiculously low number of charge points

You  have  no  electric output  in  you  garage?

Unlike liquid  fuels  and  supply  points which  have  been  cleverly   designed  for  compulsory   convenience and  profitability  there  is  an ignored  factor as  yet  about   electric  vehicles.

The  vast  majority  of  privately operated vehicles   travel  less  than   160 kms  in  any  day. The  range  of  electric  vehicles has   for a long  time  well  exceeded  that  range. Which  means  that  such  vehicles  have   also  had a  very  viable  market  for  a  very  long time. And  that recharging   at  home  has  also  been a   very  viable  option.

That  market  has  been  willingly  been  sabotaged   by  the   petro   Industry due  to the  political /financial implications of  influence.

For  that  reason  electric   vehicles  have mostly  remained  in the  "experimental "  status of  manufacturers showcasing generally  with  the  excuse   that   long   range   capacity  has been  a  limitation.

The  concession  to this  has been  the worthless  hybrid  petro/electric scams .

Also ignored  is  that   solar  panels  generating energy  into wasteful  national  grids  are  now  considered   viable  yet the  concept  of  them  being  incorporated into the  rooftops  of  the  average  vehicle is  a  non  subject?

The  impact  on  electric  energy supply  is  too  often given as  a  negative  for  electric  vehicles while deliberately ignoring  many easley  offsetting achieved factors.

3  years  ago  I  was  priviledged  to  test  ride  an  all electric production "super   bike" with a  200+ kmph top speed,  rang  of 350 kms  at  full  capacity and  1.5 hour   recharge   time. Almost silent  and  scarey!  And  priced  comparably with an  iconic noisy dinosaur ! I can  not  afford  either   but  I  know  that if I  could  where  my  money  would  go!

 

 

 

 

[Kevbo]

2 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

You  have  no  electric output  in  you  garage?

Unlike liquid  fuels  and  supply  points which  have  been  cleverly   designed  for  compulsory   convenience and  profitability  there  is  an ignored  factor as  yet  about   electric  vehicles.

The  vast  majority  of  privately operated vehicles   travel  less  than   160 kms  in  any  day. The  range  of  electric  vehicles has   for a long  time  well  exceeded  that  range. Which  means  that  such  vehicles  have   also  had a  very  viable  market  for  a  very  long time. And  that recharging   at  home  has  also  been a   very  viable  option.

That  market  has  been  willingly  been  sabotaged   by  the   petro   Industry due  to the  political /financial implications of  influence.

For  that  reason  electric   vehicles  have mostly  remained  in the  "experimental "  status of  manufacturers showcasing generally  with  the  excuse   that   long   range   capacity  has been  a  limitation.

The  concession  to this  has been  the worthless  hybrid  petro/electric scams .

Also ignored  is  that   solar  panels  generating energy  into wasteful  national  grids  are  now  considered   viable  yet the  concept  of  them  being  incorporated into the  rooftops  of  the  average  vehicle is  a  non  subject?

The  impact  on  electric  energy supply  is  too  often given as  a  negative  for  electric  vehicles while deliberately ignoring  many easley  offsetting achieved factors.

3  years  ago  I  was  priviledged  to  test  ride  an  all electric production "super   bike" with a  200+ kmph top speed,  rang  of 350 kms  at  full  capacity and  1.5 hour   recharge   time. Almost silent  and  scarey!  And  priced  comparably with an  iconic noisy dinosaur ! I can  not  afford  either   but  I  know  that if I  could  where  my  money  would  go!

 

 

 

 

How do you know I don't live in a block of flats ? I am not against the electrification of vehicles, on the contrary, it is a good idea if only for the reason that it reduces our dependence on ME oil, but the infrastructure needs to be in place before we start churning out millions of them

[Dumbastheycome]

5 minutes ago, Kevbo said:

How do you know I don't live in a block of flats ? I am not against the electrification of vehicles, on the contrary, it is a good idea if only for the reason that it reduces our dependence on ME oil, but the infrastructure needs to be in place before we start churning out millions of them

China   is  already  in the  process  of  the  churning.  And   Volvo, yes  that  iconic   brand,  is  planning  to  go  all electric   by 2020  with all production  in China. 

If   you  live  in a  block  of  flats   then   who  could  object  to a   solar   panel  set up  if  you  have  no  garaging?  

Does  everything  have  to   come in a  plastic bag filed  with  tinsel  and  glossy  bits?

[Kevbo]

3 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

China   is  already  in the  process  of  the  churning.  And   Volvo, yes  that  iconic   brand,  is  planning  to  go  all electric   by 2020  with all production  in China. 

If   you  live  in a  block  of  flats   then   who  could  object  to a   solar   panel  set up  if  you  have  no  garaging?  

Does  everything  have  to   come in a  plastic bag filed  with  tinsel  and  glossy  bits?

So where would this solar panel be erected ? And where would I plug the car in ? You haven't really thought this through which is why you don't get my point about infrastructure, as I said I agree with the concept of electric vehicles but I also enjoy the convenience of seeing a petrol station every few miles, no tinsel or glossy bits required

[Dumbastheycome]

1 minute ago, Kevbo said:

So where would this solar panel be erected ? And where would I plug the car in ? You haven't really thought this through which is why you don't get my point about infrastructure, as I said I agree with the concept of electric vehicles but I also enjoy the convenience of seeing a petrol station every few miles, no tinsel or glossy bits required

It  is  your  admission  that  you  enjoy  the   convenience that  is  the   general  crux. So  stay  with  you   gas  gobbler.

No , I do  not   know  your  circumstances   of dwelling.  So  where  you  could  potentially  place  solar panels  to  run  via   a  cable  to  your  particular car is  not a  circumstantial  issue i  can  supply  detail  to other  than  perhaps  at  last  resort  on  the car roof? Or  if  in  genuine  desperation Google  it!

Self  initiative  is  the  measure  of  capability.

 

[Enoon]

 

1 hour ago, Dumbastheycome said:

It  is  your  admission  that  you  enjoy  the   convenience that  is  the   general  crux. So  stay  with  you   gas  gobbler.

No , I do  not   know  your  circumstances   of dwelling.  So  where  you  could  potentially  place  solar panels  to  run  via   a  cable  to  your  particular car is  not a  circumstantial  issue i  can  supply  detail  to other  than  perhaps  at  last  resort  on  the car roof? Or  if  in  genuine  desperation Google  it!

Self  initiative  is  the  measure  of  capability.

 

 

You are talking to yesterdays men.

 

Not worth the effort.

 

Their world is disappearing and there is no way they can bring them themselves to imagine the world to come as viable or workable.

 

"T'was ever thus"

 

 

[Enoon]

2 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

You  have  no  electric output  in  you  garage?

Unlike liquid  fuels  and  supply  points which  have  been  cleverly   designed  for  compulsory   convenience and  profitability  there  is  an ignored  factor as  yet  about   electric  vehicles.

The  vast  majority  of  privately operated vehicles   travel  less  than   160 kms  in  any  day. The  range  of  electric  vehicles has   for a long  time  well  exceeded  that  range. Which  means  that  such  vehicles  have   also  had a  very  viable  market  for  a  very  long time. And  that recharging   at  home  has  also  been a   very  viable  option.

That  market  has  been  willingly  been  sabotaged   by  the   petro   Industry due  to the  political /financial implications of  influence.

For  that  reason  electric   vehicles  have mostly  remained  in the  "experimental "  status of  manufacturers showcasing generally  with  the  excuse   that   long   range   capacity  has been  a  limitation.

The  concession  to this  has been  the worthless  hybrid  petro/electric scams .

Also ignored  is  that   solar  panels  generating energy  into wasteful  national  grids  are  now  considered   viable  yet the  concept  of  them  being  incorporated into the  rooftops  of  the  average  vehicle is  a  non  subject?

The  impact  on  electric  energy supply  is  too  often given as  a  negative  for  electric  vehicles while deliberately ignoring  many easley  offsetting achieved factors.

3  years  ago  I  was  priviledged  to  test  ride  an  all electric production "super   bike" with a  200+ kmph top speed,  rang  of 350 kms  at  full  capacity and  1.5 hour   recharge   time. Almost silent  and  scarey!  And  priced  comparably with an  iconic noisy dinosaur ! I can  not  afford  either   but  I  know  that if I  could  where  my  money  would  go!

 

 

 

 

 

Wind power cheaper than nuclear energy for the first time ever

 

 

[Ulic]

20 minutes ago, Enoon said:

 

Wind power cheaper than nuclear energy for the first time ever

 

 

Is this out of context. The subsidies of "green energy" versus other energy.

The cost of nuclear energy quoted, is the cost of energy created by future

nuclear plants and what they have been guaranteed to be paid vs. what

nuclear power plants are currently paid. Is the carbon footprint of the wind

power fully calculated including the manufacture of their cement bases.

In considering it "green" what is the cost of bird kills both on land powered

and sea powered wind farms. Just so many agendas. I really question

every article on this subject.    

[cooked]

8 hours ago, Enoon said:

 

Wind power cheaper than nuclear energy for the first time ever

 

 

Not every country has enough wind, and statements like 'wind power cheaper than nuclear energy for the first time ever' ignore, as did the original propagandists for nuclear power, the fact that there is a recycling problem involved. At present, recycling solar panels is more expensive than the cost of a new solar panel. Millions of tons of panels are in use and on their way to oblivion somewhere. The new car batteries involved in the electric power of cars have a similar problem and will doubtless lead to 'lithium wars'; instead of oil wars as at present.

Wind power can't be used everywhere, in Switzerland I experienced months on end where the turbines, situated of course on top of scenic mountains, weren't turning at all. Last time I looked, a wind turbine needs 4000 hours running a year to be financially viable, now they want to erect them in Thailand.

 

[Mansell]

I am guessing that most members on here are in their fifties to seventies etc. so you probably don't have to worry about this new future ahead of you, because you won't be alive.....maybe in your next lifetime! This is the future people until something better arrives. So all your protestations will not change anything. Like most issues in this world around manufacturing, they will be resolved in time. As the inventor of the Tesla cars has shown with his futuristic ideas, he is ahead of the curve. You either get onboard, or get left behind. 

I have had a Prius, excellent car....and an all electric Leaf, an excellent car with a limited range. But in the years we had the Leaf only once did we need to get a charge to return home. In Santa Monica the city council got behind hybrids and electric cars, and installed free charging places around the city. Also at city hall charging points powered by solar panels on the car ports offered for parking. Free parking at parking meters around the city for both hybrids and electrics. As for the batteries, they can be recycled. Prius taxis have been driven in excess of 200,000 miles with no battery problems. And because of regenerative braking, brakes rarely have to be replaced. One time driving down the Grapevine, a very high and long mountain outside LA, in my Prius...I had on the lights, music, a/c, cruise control, and the car wasn't using any power...it basically was coasting down the mountain with everything working without using power.....as best I understood it was getting the power from the regenerative braking combined with the cruise control maintains 70mph. I was impressed as I had no idea of the flexibility of the hybrid system. Another time driving to Montana I averaged 60 miles to the gallon driving at 80mph, a/c on, and a lot of progressive hills. Most people who talk negative about hybrids and all electrics have never driven or owned one. A bit like the hot air coming out their exhaust pipes.

[taichiplanet]

at least now, i have the option to electrify my E-Type!

http://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/jaguar-e-type-zero-electric-car-revealed/ar-AArrkq1

[VocalNeal]

15 hours ago, Slain said:

I would imagine most of the electric vehicles would be charged over-night when demand is lowest.

 

Demand won't be low at night when all the cars are plugged in! 

 

17 hours ago, connda said:

I'd love to know how the plan to generate enough electricity to covert from gas/diesel to electric.

 

I read that there isn't enough electricity generated in the US for everyone to have an electric car. So yes the whole thing is not being thought through. 

 

The wind doesn't always blow and the sun doesn't always shine.

 

Edited September 13, 2017 by VocalNeal

[johng]

There is enough coal,gas and oil + bio fuel to last a long time yet
modern internal combustion engines are still improving cleanliness and efficiency.
They should wait until a breakthrough battery technology or best hydrogen fuel cells which can directly convert water to power + oxygen.

[1sickpuppy]

23 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

You  have  no  electric output  in  you  garage?

Unlike liquid  fuels  and  supply  points which  have  been  cleverly   designed  for  compulsory   convenience and  profitability  there  is  an ignored  factor as  yet  about   electric  vehicles.

The  vast  majority  of  privately operated vehicles   travel  less  than   160 kms  in  any  day. The  range  of  electric  vehicles has   for a long  time  well  exceeded  that  range. Which  means  that  such  vehicles  have   also  had a  very  viable  market  for  a  very  long time. And  that recharging   at  home  has  also  been a   very  viable  option.

That  market  has  been  willingly  been  sabotaged   by  the   petro   Industry due  to the  political /financial implications of  influence.

For  that  reason  electric   vehicles  have mostly  remained  in the  "experimental "  status of  manufacturers showcasing generally  with  the  excuse   that   long   range   capacity  has been  a  limitation.

The  concession  to this  has been  the worthless  hybrid  petro/electric scams .

Also ignored  is  that   solar  panels  generating energy  into wasteful  national  grids  are  now  considered   viable  yet the  concept  of  them  being  incorporated into the  rooftops  of  the  average  vehicle is  a  non  subject?

The  impact  on  electric  energy supply  is  too  often given as  a  negative  for  electric  vehicles while deliberately ignoring  many easley  offsetting achieved factors.

3  years  ago  I  was  priviledged  to  test  ride  an  all electric production "super   bike" with a  200+ kmph top speed,  rang  of 350 kms  at  full  capacity and  1.5 hour   recharge   time. Almost silent  and  scarey!  And  priced  comparably with an  iconic noisy dinosaur ! I can  not  afford  either   but  I  know  that if I  could  where  my  money  would  go!

 

 

 

 

You are spot on, they just want the tax $ same ciggs & alcohol, like they give a _uck about clean air

[Justgrazing]

On 12/09/2017 at 4:33 PM, Dumbastheycome said:

China   is  already  in the  process  of  the  churning.  And   Volvo, yes  that  iconic   brand,  is  planning  to  go  all electric   by 2020  with all production  in China. 

If   you  live  in a  block  of  flats   then   who  could  object  to a   solar   panel  set up  if  you  have  no  garaging?  

Does  everything  have  to   come in a  plastic bag filed  with  tinsel  and  glossy  bits?

Dude with the greatest respect you're claim that Volvo will go all electric by 2020 is a bit erroneous .. All the P R earlier this summer was they would no longer produce combustion engine only vehicles from 2020 instead offering a range of electric , hybrids and " mild " 48v hybrids .. So certainly for conventional hybrids they will continue to produce combustion engines .. 

[Dumbastheycome]

Just now, Justgrazing said:

Dude with the greatest respect you're claim that Volvo will go all electric by 2020 is a bit erroneous .. All the P R earlier this summer was they would no longer produce combustion engine only vehicles from 2020 instead offering a range of electric , hybrids and " mild " 48v hybrids .. So certainly for conventional hybrids they will continue to produce combustion engines .. 

That  is  not the  same  as the statements I  have  previously  read but I will  not   dispute  it.

In  pssing I would  say  that there  seems  to  some   paranoid perceptions  that  somehw  the   autombile  industry  is  on the  brink of  total conversion  to   all electric  vehicles.

It  would  be  obvious  that  there  is a  predicted  " move"  to  that  situation targeting   that percentage  of  the  market  for  which it  is  appropriate  and  feasible.

For  the  reminder  it  is  as  obvious  that the  internal   combustion powered  vehicle    will   be  about   for  a long  time  yet. And  that  is  despite  the  fact that the  very  best  combustion  engine has  never  achieved an energy usage higher  than the  lower  40's%.

The  focus  on CO2  pollution has  been the   marker  in ignorance  of the  fact  that there  is   no actual  green  energy alternative,  just a  shift  from  airbourne  to   a presumed   containable   landform.

The  global  demand  for  transportation in a  format  that  has been  promoted  and  adopted is  the  real  problem.

Electrification  does not  actually  solve  that. It  only  changes / redirects/ exacerbates  the source of  similar issues.

At  end  point  the  only sustainable long term solution would have  to be a   social/cultural  shift from  that  which I  have enjoyed  and  taken  for  granted. But I am  also  able  to understand that  unless  humanity  is  somehow  contained  in it's  selfish   demands it  will  suffer  badly. 

I am  saddened but  also  relieved  to  know  that eventually either way  will  be at a time  when  I am departed.

 

 

[Justgrazing]

8 minutes ago, Dumbastheycome said:

That  is  not the  same  as the statements I  have  previously  read but I will  not   dispute  it.

In  pssing I would  say  that there  seems  to  some   paranoid perceptions  that  somehw  the   autombile  industry  is  on the  brink of  total conversion  to   all electric  vehicles.

It  would  be  obvious  that  there  is a  predicted  " move"  to  that  situation targeting   that percentage  of  the  market  for  which it  is  appropriate  and  feasible.

For  the  reminder  it  is  as  obvious  that the  internal   combustion powered  vehicle    will   be  about   for  a long  time  yet. And  that  is  despite  the  fact that the  very  best  combustion  engine has  never  achieved an energy usage higher  than the  lower  40's%.

The  focus  on CO2  pollution has  been the   marker  in ignorance  of the  fact  that there  is   no actual  green  energy alternative,  just a  shift  from  airbourne  to   a presumed   containable   landform.

The  global  demand  for  transportation in a  format  that  has been  promoted  and  adopted is  the  real  problem.

Electrification  does not  actually  solve  that. It  only  changes / redirects/ exacerbates  the source of  similar issues.

At  end  point  the  only sustainable long term solution would have  to be a   social/cultural  shift from  that  which I  have enjoyed  and  taken  for  granted. But I am  also  able  to understand that  unless  humanity  is  somehow  contained  in it's  selfish   demands it  will  suffer  badly. 

I am  saddened but  also  relieved  to  know  that eventually either way  will  be at a time  when  I am departed.

 

 

Indeed Sir .. Whilst there will be a shift towards electric powered vehicles there is too much hope being pinned on battery equipped 'lectric vehicles at the moment .. Their advantage within cities and for short journeys is undeniable which is why they are exempt from city entry charges , free parking etc but the fundamental draw back with battery powered vehicles that can only be charged externally is the range and always has been .. Sure battery technology has improved but it still hasnt improved enough for you to do say a 200 mile journey at the drop of a hat without fear that you will get there without running out of juice in the same way that you can do with a combustion engine vehicle .. And even places like the UK doesn't have the charge points needed to facilitate mass use of these cars to the level of convenience that current vehicles have .. as far as I'm aware its only some Scandinavian countries have anywhere near the number of charge stations needed .. And then there's the charge time .. It cannot be overlooked also that at present pure electric is not really suitable for heavy vehicles such as long distance trucks and buses nor is it suitable for heavy machinery that at present use diesel power .. Hybrid set-up's are a compromise that try to solve the range issue but can end up burning more fuel than their petrol/diesel only counterparts in trying to charge / assist the system depending on what type of set up is used .. The Hybrid conundrum itself has been wrestled with for near 80 yrs .. Ferdinand Porsche's prototype Tiger tank ( VK 45.01) designed at the behest of Hitler incorporated an electric motor for each track that was powered by its own generator which in turn was driven by its own huge petrol engine .. The result was predictable it burned twice the fuel that a single petrol engine Tiger tank would with no appreciable advantage in speed , range or ease of use .. No suprise the Germans didnt go with the idea .. Research into improving the concept will continue and ideas such as K E R S and heat transfer tech will be refined .. But as for pure electric until the range issue and availability of charge points not to mention drastic reduction in charge time is solved it is not the solution to the future .. And driving an electric vehicle is a most soporific experience .. Give me a BMW M3 anyday .. 

[Kevbo]

On 9/12/2017 at 4:57 PM, Dumbastheycome said:

It  is  your  admission  that  you  enjoy  the   convenience that  is  the   general  crux. So  stay  with  you   gas  gobbler.

No , I do  not   know  your  circumstances   of dwelling.  So  where  you  could  potentially  place  solar panels  to  run  via   a  cable  to  your  particular car is  not a  circumstantial  issue i  can  supply  detail  to other  than  perhaps  at  last  resort  on  the car roof? Or  if  in  genuine  desperation Google  it!

Self  initiative  is  the  measure  of  capability.

 

Everyone enjoys convenience it's human nature, my car is not a gas GUZZLER, I get very good mpg, but I admit I didn't think of your brilliant idea of driving around with a solar panel strapped to my roof ! Who needs google  with a genius like you around ....

[Kevbo]

On 9/12/2017 at 6:37 PM, Enoon said:

 

 

You are talking to yesterdays men.

 

Not worth the effort.

 

Their world is disappearing and there is no way they can bring them themselves to imagine the world to come as viable or workable.

 

"T'was ever thus"

 

 

BS

[Kevbo]

On 9/13/2017 at 3:39 PM, 1sickpuppy said:

You are spot on, they just want the tax $ same ciggs & alcohol, like they give a _uck about clean air

Actually I do give a _uck about clean air my vehicle isn't diesel and returns very good mpg. I will say it again for all you out there that are hard of listening ..... I like concept of electric vehicles but only when the infrastructure is in place, as enjoyed by our Californian friend who posted earlier

[Ace of Pop]

They have yet to get the 2 Tesla's around Nurburgring without it cooking the electrics when going for a track record.!!!  Only 7 mins flat out......REALY,?.  U.S.Team Viper had a chuckle.

[Justgrazing]

5 minutes ago, Ace of Pop said:

They have yet to get the 2 Tesla's around Nurburgring without it cooking the electrics when going for a track record.!!!  Only 7 mins flat out......REALY,?.  U.S.Team Viper had a chuckle.

 Motorcycle with engine from said Viper ..