Diseased chickens

[jak2002003]

25 minutes ago, Mr Kie said:

This is obvious ..no one will report as bird flu. it's now become the local disease not only in winter but it's spreading all year round. better know where your birds from and know if they are vaccinated good enough that's only way to get your birds being healthy. 

Agree.

 

The one surviving bird I had was the only one which had been vaccinated by previous owner.  I had my bird for many years.  I would advise anyone farming chickens to get them vaccinated.

 

I believe my birds got sick from wild birds (we get big flacks of sparrows).  My flock was free range so it was easy for them to get the disease.  The chickens then spread it to the pigeons.

 

 

[Speedo1968]

2 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Don't know where you are located, but I am in Chiang Mai, San Sai area. 

 

We lost all our chickens and many pigeons to a disease a week ago.  The disease spread all over the surrounding villages and then to most of the area north of the city, and people lost a lot of chickens and quail. Friend lost 200 guinea fowl, and a local farmer I know lost all his quail in a few days.

 

It was so serious the village loud speaker announcements talked about it and told people to repost cases to the local authority.

 

Now most of the village chickens are gone...  its very quiet in the mornings!  

 

The disease caused birds to die in usually less than 24 hours.  

 

The official report was it was not bird flu, but most locals, farmers, and the chicken supply places that I have talked to don't believe the official verdict.   The guy I get my 'pet' bantam chickens from told me not to get any more birds until the end of the year.  Said his customers have all lost birds.  

 

The symptoms were sudden, from being perfectly healthy to getting lethargic, stopping eating and drinking, and then death.  

 

 

Hello jak2002003

My sympathies to you and others who have lost so much recently.

Even without knowing the symptoms you have seen, for a disease to wipe out a whole range of different species ( quail, chickens, guinea fowl, ducks? ) within such a short time it is most likely to be bird flu.

Not sure if quail losses are in cages ?

There are one or two other diseases that can cause sudden loss of many birds but ......

 

China reported H5N8 earlier this year, Vietnam H5H1 / 5 / 6 earlier this year etc etc.

The winter wind where I live ( Banphai 50km south of Khon Kaen ) has blown in from China over the last few days and with it a risk of infection.    The rice season in Thailand is still underway with late rains in October,again a risk from migratory birds.

 

The government Tannoy ( loud speakers ) asking for those infected to "report", not sure they will get many takers they will get.

 

It's now up to the individual farms to take responsible action to protect themselves and others.   

Burn and bury and quicklime the dead carcasses, depopulate the farm i.e neck remaining birds of all species ( some may look 'ok' but can be carriers ), if time take photos of dead, dying birds and feaces etc, clean the farm properly, do not visit other peoples farm or allow visitors to yours, check your own health and that of your family and staff.

 

Consider 'If' you will restock again and if so ensure proper vaccinations, if available, are given properly and regularly.

Good luck.

[khwaibah]

1 hour ago, Speedo1968 said:

Hello jak2002003

My sympathies to you and others who have lost so much recently.

Even without knowing the symptoms you have seen, for a disease to wipe out a whole range of different species ( quail, chickens, guinea fowl, ducks? ) within such a short time it is most likely to be bird flu.

Not sure if quail losses are in cages ?

There are one or two other diseases that can cause sudden loss of many birds but ......

 

China reported H5N8 earlier this year, Vietnam H5H1 / 5 / 6 earlier this year etc etc.

The winter wind where I live ( Banphai 50km south of Khon Kaen ) has blown in from China over the last few days and with it a risk of infection.    The rice season in Thailand is still underway with late rains in October,again a risk from migratory birds.

 

The government Tannoy ( loud speakers ) asking for those infected to "report", not sure they will get many takers they will get.

 

It's now up to the individual farms to take responsible action to protect themselves and others.   

Burn and bury and quicklime the dead carcasses, depopulate the farm i.e neck remaining birds of all species ( some may look 'ok' but can be carriers ), if time take photos of dead, dying birds and feaces etc, clean the farm properly, do not visit other peoples farm or allow visitors to yours, check your own health and that of your family and staff.

 

Consider 'If' you will restock again and if so ensure proper vaccinations, if available, are given properly and regularly.

Good luck.

 

Sorry to here of the above. Still have not seen or heard of any out break  in Buriram, Surin or Si Saket of any so called "bird flu", that doesn't mean it has not happened. We just returned with 50 NEW baby chicks that are now in their on clean, disinfected, fresh water with vitamins and feed in closer. Shortly they will be vaccinated.  As I have said the boss has about 150 chickens and another 50 ducks all properly cared for. She is getting about 100 eggs a week that go into a commercial incubator.

[cooked]

18 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

Don't know where you are located, but I am in Chiang Mai, San Sai area. 

 

We lost all our chickens and many pigeons to a disease a week ago.  The disease spread all over the surrounding villages and then to most of the area north of the city, and people lost a lot of chickens and quail. Friend lost 200 guinea fowl, and a local farmer I know lost all his quail in a few days.

 

It was so serious the village loud speaker announcements talked about it and told people to repost cases to the local authority.

 

Now most of the village chickens are gone...  its very quiet in the mornings!  

 

The disease caused birds to die in usually less than 24 hours.  

 

The official report was it was not bird flu, but most locals, farmers, and the chicken supply places that I have talked to don't believe the official verdict.   The guy I get my 'pet' bantam chickens from told me not to get any more birds until the end of the year.  Said his customers have all lost birds.  

 

The symptoms were sudden, from being perfectly healthy to getting lethargic, stopping eating and drinking, and then death.  

 

 

A lady I know that lives near Chang Mai  had her dead birds examined (necropsy?) Result was Fowl cholera. But TIT, you're on your own....

[cooked]

On 9/24/2017 at 7:52 PM, pigeonjake said:

Glad we are getting somewhere, I don't claim to be an expert just been round farm animals all my life Thailand included 

Well we would welcome your feedback mate, no offence was intended.

[Speedo1968]

2 hours ago, cooked said:

A lady I know that lives near Chang Mai  had her dead birds examined (necropsy?) Result was Fowl cholera. But TIT, you're on your own....

Hello cooked.

Well done that lady if she had the birds examined through a 'friendly' vet.

 

What types of birds did the lady have on her farm ?    Ages ?   Any idea of symptoms other than sudden death ?

 

FC usually affects birds older than 6 weeks.

Feces for FC in chicken / duck is greenish / yellowish.    For ducks may be of similar colour.

Feces for DP in duck is also greenish / yellowish.

 

Main cause of FC is poor hygiene and other conditions at the farm.   These may attract wild birds and vermin.   Rodents are a main carrier of the infection as are wild birds.   Fertilizer often contains chicken / duck droppings.   Of course failing to vaccinate or bring in birds already vaccinated will increase the risk of FC.

 

Fowl Cholera is a possibility at the ladies farm as like Bird Flu ( AI ) it can affect multiple species in very similar ways.    The acute form of FC can cause sudden death as does bird flu..   The recognition of this pathological condition is of ever increasing importance for differential diagnosis with avian influenza ( Bird Flu ).    As far back as 2004 in Thailand links were expected between FC and AI, when more than a million birds were slaughtered, many from Thailand's major exporter. 

 

What I don't understand is when government or local vets do not declare what the findings show, whether it be AI or FC ?   Of course either would lead to major quarantine areas having to be established as well as international repercussions,   Yes, both can lead to very high losses but, at least the farmer will know what they experiencing on their farm and, with correct advice can try and reduce the risks to themselves and others.   Of course admitting to it being AI and not FC is a "No No".    To some vets admitting to either is also a "No No".

 

Once a farm has become infected it will remain so therefore if birds are placed again they should be vaccinated.    Remaining birds, if any from the previous flocks will be carriers and thus pose a heightened threat to new stock.

[jak2002003]

9 hours ago, cooked said:

A lady I know that lives near Chang Mai  had her dead birds examined (necropsy?) Result was Fowl cholera. But TIT, you're on your own....

Yes. I have been told  that is the official verdict. 

 

However, fowl cholera is spread during COLD wet weather... and usually in wetlands with waterfowl.  The virus is also very easily destroyed by disinfectants and sunlight.... so it seems strange that such a large number of birds, over such a large area, all became infected and almost 100 percent mortality rate too.  Also it's more common in ducks and turkeys than chickens... and when affecting chickens it's more common when the birds are kept in high densities.  Many of the birds that died in my area where kept in very LOW densities and mostly free range.  

 

The locals I have talked to think it is bird flu, and I am inclined to think the same, particularly at fowl cholera is not supposed seriously infect  pigeons... of which I lost many too.  

 

 

[cooked]

On 9/25/2017 at 11:52 AM, Speedo1968 said:

Hello 'cooked' going back to your first posting asking about a step by step guide for what may be wrong with your birds.

Still in the process of getting something drawn up.   Will try to do it in subject by subject form sending a page at a time. You can then keep or delete or comment as you wish.

Although I am sure you have learnt a lot from your experiences to date, I thought it might be worth taking a step back and taking a lighthearted look at the overall situation as if starting anew. 

Have attached as a file, for anyone to open ( if that can be done ) and comment.  If you feel this may be unsafe let me know and I will either send as message or post as normal.

ARE MY DUCKS - Page 1 - 25.09.17.docx

Have you given up yet? I was once involved in editing a key for plant identification (ca 2000 flowering plants and 1000 grasses) and my task was to pick out all instances of 'are similar to...' and replace it with, 'the following characteristics are similar to those in...'. . One hell of a job.

So let's hope your efforts don't drive you to the demon drink. 

I must say that I didn't realise that examining the feces was important, it has come to mind that one of the geese (that recovered) had green feces. Any key needs fotos, and when involved in plant IDs I really appreciated the quality of the fotos that we had already. 

At  present our survivors are happily swimming around in the flooded part of their pound, mating and brooding. Vaccinations are planned, I can do that. 

Good luck with the key, that really would help at least to narrow things down. 

[Speedo1968]

On 10/4/2017 at 8:34 AM, cooked said:

Have you given up yet? I was once involved in editing a key for plant identification (ca 2000 flowering plants and 1000 grasses) and my task was to pick out all instances of 'are similar to...' and replace it with, 'the following characteristics are similar to those in...'. . One hell of a job.

So let's hope your efforts don't drive you to the demon drink. 

I must say that I didn't realise that examining the feces was important, it has come to mind that one of the geese (that recovered) had green feces. Any key needs fotos, and when involved in plant IDs I really appreciated the quality of the fotos that we had already. 

At  present our survivors are happily swimming around in the flooded part of their pound, mating and brooding. Vaccinations are planned, I can do that. 

Good luck with the key, that really would help at least to narrow things down. 

No, not given up yet, actually enjoying the challenge.

Sometimes when I have been to a farm I know what is wrong before I even walk through the gate, without having any information from the farmer, other times it may take many long days and nights to finally decide what the cause is.

My advantage was that I worked freelance and so was not looking for an excuse to sell something i.e. medicines or a new feeding system.

Sometimes you can still never be sure if it is a 'one off', something new or 'what came first'; this is where looking outside the box and photos come in to their own

 

Glad your survivors are out at play.

Yes, please vaccinate if it is available.

Remember to follow the recommended time after medication relating to the consumption of eggs and meat and, birds being brooded.

 

Where did you do all the plant identifications, was it for a book ?

 

For me behaviour is the most important sign that something may be wrong.    Feathering is easily noticeable.   Feces are a good indicator as long as it has not been trodden into the ground.

 

As an example of behavior I got to the gate of a farm in Malaysia and should have heard 20 week + ducks chatting loudly to each other.

There was total silence !     When I got to the breeder duck houses the females were agitated, running about, pecking at the males.   The females was so upset they weren't even quacking.   The males were all hiding in or sitting on top of the nest boxes really really scared.      The farmer had not reared the ducks properly to ensure the males at mating time knew what to do.     Thousands of imported breeding stock lost, the owner thought he would try to rear a different way, but as usual nature is in control.    If only he had tried a few birds with his different method.

 

Feather condition can tell you a lot but is rarely specific in telling you what is wrong, except perhaps with moulting.

In combination with bird behaviour, colour of feces, gait etc. it may be possible to narrow it down.

If there are what appear to be sudden deaths, yes it could be a something such as AI or FC.   There may have been no real warning signs or, it could be an illness that took it's toll of the birds and they succumbed at the same time.

 

Feces can be confusing, example green feces can be due to what the bird has been eating, a toxin, dehydration but also a highly virulent disease.    Blood in feces could mean cocci or prolapse or worms etc.

 

I will try my best to find good clear pictures for the most common causes of ill health.    I will exclude post-mortem pictures as such findings are for the vet to ascertain.

 

Try to provide clean water for drinking if possible, off the ground and in a dry area.

If the ducks / geese are only swimming in dirty water it affects the preening glands and, if they cannot preen properly this will put them at risk of poor condition.

Ducks also need to clear their nostrils and, to wash their eyes to activate their immune system, totally different to the requirements of chickens.

[cooked]

I played a minor role in the French version of 'Flora Helvetica', http://www.flora-helvetica.ch/fr/buch.html which has since been modified several times and since digitisation has become a completely different work. For the life of me I can't remember the name of the guy I collaborated with, since died.

[Speedo1968]

On 10/5/2017 at 2:04 PM, cooked said:

I played a minor role in the French version of 'Flora Helvetica', http://www.flora-helvetica.ch/fr/buch.html which has since been modified several times and since digitisation has become a completely different work. For the life of me I can't remember the name of the guy I collaborated with, since died.

Here again, have been busy.

Attached is file of pictures gleaned from those online, ( too difficult to scan and copy from my own books ), of feces colour and what it may mean.   It by no means covers all the differences you may see.

As you will realise in most cases diagnosing a disease or condition just from feces is difficult.   

Generally if the bird looks "under the weather" something is wrong with its gut.   Blood in feces is a key one to look for.  The bird could have been suffering for some time and feces are often the first to show something is wrong.    Death can then follow quickly.

The hot weather is now past so dehydration should not be a problem.     Chilling can be, especially with young birds.

Will get a table drawn up this week indicating feces colour and possible causes.

 

 

FECES MANY PICTURES modified - 10.10.17.docx

[cooked]

Well this is opening up a whole yucky world for me I must admit, but I'm happy to learn.

Good work indeed, I'm now wondering how you will be fitting it all together as I'm sure there are more features to come.

I also hope you might be able to make money from this! 

[Speedo1968]

9 hours ago, cooked said:

Well this is opening up a whole yucky world for me I must admit, but I'm happy to learn.

Good work indeed, I'm now wondering how you will be fitting it all together as I'm sure there are more features to come.

I also hope you might be able to make money from this! 

Yucky, yes a bit, but little difference between what us humans would feel / produce when we are sick.

Next will be a table showing disease or health problems and the normally associated feces colour.

After that will be body posture e.g. twisted neck, wing walking etc.

Eventually, or when requested, I can give a paragraph about a particular disease.

 

My main interest with livestock has always been behaviour / genetics ( natural selection ).

As a prime example a duck is NOT a chicken.

I have been lucky in that my work has taken me to very varying climate zones from -20 to +60^oC.    Small and very large farms.  Sometimes quick fix alternative systems using local materials e.g. Kuwait after the Gulf War or farms with their own de-sal plant and power station.   The key is to literally be bum on the ground ( sitting on the floor ) with the farmer and their stock, especially here in Thailand.

 

Two things that are useful when livestock have upset gut or general malaise is yogurt and a tonic such as Gatorade; Epsom salts can also help.   Have used yogurt back in the 1980's in Saudi with houses of 25,000 birds, worked a treat.

The key very often is simple - to provide "drinkable" water.

Making money, have done in the past but contracts can be very restrictive.   I retired some years ago and now enjoy helping, I hope, with some useful tips.

[Speedo1968]

On 10/15/2017 at 6:09 AM, cooked said:

Well this is opening up a whole yucky world for me I must admit, but I'm happy to learn.

Good work indeed, I'm now wondering how you will be fitting it all together as I'm sure there are more features to come.

I also hope you might be able to make money from this! 

Back again.

This time a list of some important diseases and associated fecal colours.    A followup to the pictures I sent.

The list should be used in context alongside other existing factors. 

Please adjust the file as you wish.

My apologies for any errors etc.

 

 

 

FECES COLOUR & ASSOCIATED DISEASE - Final Draft - 01.11.17.docx

[cooked]

On 11/1/2017 at 4:35 PM, Speedo1968 said:

Back again.

This time a list of some important diseases and associated fecal colours.    A followup to the pictures I sent.

The list should be used in context alongside other existing factors. 

Please adjust the file as you wish.

My apologies for any errors etc.

 

 

 

FECES COLOUR & ASSOCIATED DISEASE - Final Draft - 01.11.17.docx

I certainly won't be the one to adjust or edit the file, this is very comprehensive and I like that you included turkeys and ducks in the chart.

According to it and other remarks made in this thread  I have decided that our chickens did in fact have avian flu.

I am guessing that this is all we need (apart from laboratory analysis) for diagnosing illnesses? To be honest I thought we might get a description of typical behaviour before manifesting other symptoms and during the illness, but I did mention that I hadn't realised that examination of the faeces was important. 

How about putting this up on the backyard chickens website for further criticism?

 

Anyway, hearty thanks from me and I hope your efforts are rewarded or recognised in some way

[Speedo1968]

3 hours ago, cooked said:

I certainly won't be the one to adjust or edit the file, this is very comprehensive and I like that you included turkeys and ducks in the chart.

According to it and other remarks made in this thread  I have decided that our chickens did in fact have avian flu.

I am guessing that this is all we need (apart from laboratory analysis) for diagnosing illnesses? To be honest I thought we might get a description of typical behaviour before manifesting other symptoms and during the illness, but I did mention that I hadn't realised that examination of the faeces was important. 

How about putting this up on the backyard chickens website for further criticism?

 

Anyway, hearty thanks from me and I hope your efforts are rewarded or recognised in some way

Thanks for taking time to read.

Typical behaviour, even perhaps atypical behaviour tends to be easier to read, at least I think it to be the case, with chickens et al rather than with ducks, especially when it relate to flock or individual symptoms.

 

When you mention 'typical behaviour' perhaps you mean physical signs such as torticollis i.e. wry neck.    This can be caused by disease such as Newcastle and / or poor management practices.    It can also occur with Fowl Cholera and Avian Influenza with both duck and chicken, less so with the latter.    With FC it may occur with the neck arched over the back rather than twisted to the side.    Pictures available if requested.

 

If a bird looks depressed then something is wrong, either disease or any aspects of management and care i.e. clean water, dry comfortable housing etc.

 

Getting back to whether what occurred on your farm was FC or AI.   The symptoms are almost identical apart from swelling of the combs and wattles; if you saw this in chickens, ducks, turkeys then it was most likely AI.    Even this may not occur with AI if it is of highly pathogenic and virulent form, all you will suddenly see is large numbers of dead birds.     Turkeys may be affected more and faster than other birds.

 

The commonly recognised symptoms for AI and FC are large numbers or sudden death of birds, depression, anorexia ( lack of appetite ), mucoid discharge from nasal cavity and mouth ( maybe blood tinged with AI ), nervous signs ( more with AI than FC ), increased respiratory rate due mucoid discharge, possibly sneezing and coughing, diarrhea, FC tends to affect adult and older birds.

 

So, YES, you need laboratory analysis to confirm.   For both it should mean total depletion of birds and let the farm rest before bringing in new stock etc.    Vaccination policy should be in place.

 

I have started a list and some pictures for physical signs of disease, twisted neck, depression etc.   Should be available in a week or so.     As for behaviour of birds, the best way I found to do this was to sit on the ground with them, used to do this in large commercial houses.     Use your senses to sense what is going on but try not to see them as pets.