Retirement dreams on Chiang Mai "Hi-So Hill" shattered as foreigner pensioners conned into buying forestry land

[StevieAus]

10 hours ago, CNXBKKMAN said:

Yes they were defrauded but the there were a few steps they had to take before they could be defrauded. First warning flag, foreigners are not permitted to own land or houses and pretty much everyone knows this. If you still want to go ahead with a property purchase fine but proceed with caution! You are using money that you may never see again and happy with that risk? Yes. Still proceed with caution. Thailand is well known for scams and corruption which again shouts proceed with caution! Its well known and common that rural land on hills and mountains doesnt have full ownership papers, you might be buying nothing in the eyes of the law! There is a big risk proceed with caution. Before you hand over the cash it might be worth getting the opinion of lawyer who is independent of the people selling you the property. Your thai partner may not be trustworthy? Its happened before. Proceed with caution. Etc etc.

        

Whilst I agree with much of what you say, by utilizing the " user fruc " provision you have usage and control of the land during your lifetime and that of course ceases when you die which in in a practical sense is not different than what occurs in most western countries

I accept that you have to have a Thai persons name on the title but again I don't see that as being much different than in other western countries where most married couples jointly own the land/ property

Thailand isn't the only country where people have lost their savings to crooks there have been many examples in Australia and from what I have read the UK

Regarding untrustworthy wives maybe I have been fortunate but I have had many expats complain of " being taken to the cleaners" when they divorce and that was in Australia, my own brother lost everything when he divorced his English wife in the UK

I said in an earlier post that I feel sorry for the people in Chiang Mai  who lost their savings but if they had perhaps followed the steps that you have suggested which basically is common sense they wouldnt be in this position

 

[StevieAus]

11 hours ago, heybuz said:

marital status does,home is exempt if only home.if married you lose 200dollars a fortnight,but your principle residence is exempt.

I don't receive the Australian aged pension as I fail the assets test but when I made enquiries about 4 years ago I was advised by Centerlink that if you live overseas unlike if you live in Australia the value of your residence is taken into account for assessing your eligibility for the pension.

[holy cow cm]

Hahahahahaha. Naïve.

[Grumpy Duck]

I feel bad for the fellow retirees losing their nest eggs. Personally, I would never depend on someone on the internet to be honest, especially someone selling real estate or cars. I would have definitely had an attorney I can trust check out such a deal. 

 

I think investigation is warrented into how the builders could encroach onto government property. Again I am sorry for the retirees. 

[ExpatOilWorker]

20 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

23 hours ago, tomwct said:

Renting and leasing is the only way to Go in Amazing Thailand. Also I would never consider buying a Condo!.I've been
here 15 years and very happy!

You could have bought it by now reaching the magic 15 years

That is a bit of false logic.

Yes, you could have bought a condo 15 years ago, doubled your money and lived rent free. However if you had thrown your money at the Thai stock market in 1994, you would still be under water now 23 years later. 

Asking prices in excess of 300,000 baht/m2 seem very high and could have a similar future as the SET had in 1994.

[meatboy]

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 10:27 AM, impulse said:

It's cases like this that make me believe that Thailand's laws against foreigners buying land are actually humane.

 

Better to have 100 foreigners griping that they can't buy land than 50 foreigners griping that they have lost their retirement savings to land swindles, greedy wives, corrupt officials  and shifty lawyers.

 

One's irritating, with renting as a solution.  The other is devastating- and with no recourse.

 

and how LONG did it take to build these house's ?yet not ONE official saw what was going on.

[MaeJoMTB]

51 minutes ago, StevieAus said:

Regarding untrustworthy wives maybe I have been fortunate but I have had many expats complain of " being taken to the cleaners" when they divorce and that was in Australia, my own brother lost everything when he divorced his English wife in the UK

I said in an earlier post that I feel sorry for the people in Chiang Mai  who lost their savings but if they had perhaps followed the steps that you have suggested which basically is common sense they wouldnt be in this position

 

Common sense goes out the window for most men, when the woman they are sleeping with is involved.

As for "user fruc" just makes your 'sudden death' more likely IMHO.

[Destiny1990]

1 hour ago, CNXBKKMAN said:

We all know the work arounds, sorry i will rephrase that most of us know the work arounds and ways to protect your investment. The law that foreigners cant own land/properties should be the first red flag that prompts you to proceed with caution. If the victims had used more caution (due diligence) would they they be in this position today? Maybe the individual stories will come out , the article does mention the guys want other foreigners to know about this scam. 

Should the elderly foreigners go to jail for being naive? Or should the scammers be rounded up? The ownership structure plays no role in this so stop whining about it!

Edited September 26, 2017 by Destiny1990

[bazza73]

1 hour ago, StevieAus said:

I don't receive the Australian aged pension as I fail the assets test but when I made enquiries about 4 years ago I was advised by Centerlink that if you live overseas unlike if you live in Australia the value of your residence is taken into account for assessing your eligibility for the pension.

No no no. Even if you are resident in Australia, the value of your home IS taken into account with a part pension. It's only the full pension which is not affected.

http://www.yourpension.com.au/APCalc/

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 10:31 AM, trogers said:

Foxes got conned?

 

They know they cannot own land in Thailand but tried ways to go around that hurdle. So, who have the last laugh?

I'm not sure from the article that they thought they were buying the land. It says they wanted to buy houses, though later a Thai says they wanted to buy land, so it's confused. More likely they thought they were buying the houses on land owned by a Thai company.

However, they must have had a few clues to amass large amounts of money back home, but apparently lost their brains over the chance to live on "nob hill".

Did it never occur to them to check if the land was a forest reserve before handing over the goodies?

 

I love stories like this, as I get to say "I told you so".

Once again, renting is good, buying is not, in LOS.

[thaibeachlovers]

23 minutes ago, meatboy said:

and how LONG did it take to build these house's ?yet not ONE official saw what was going on.

You live in Thailand, but seem surprised at that 555555555555555555555.

[LannaGuy]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I'm not sure from the article that they thought they were buying the land. It says they wanted to buy houses, though later a Thai says they wanted to buy land, so it's confused. More likely they thought they were buying the houses on land owned by a Thai company.

However, they must have had a few clues to amass large amounts of money back home, but apparently lost their brains over the chance to live on "nob hill".

Did it never occur to them to check if the land was a forest reserve before handing over the goodies?

 

I love stories like this, as I get to say "I told you so".

Once again, renting is good, buying is not, in LOS.

 

Nothing wrong buying in LOS and never had a problem.  Own 2 houses and 2 condos can't generalize like that. Used to have a lot more but cashed in for other reasons unrelated to 'buying is bad'.

[meatboy]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You live in Thailand, but seem surprised at that 555555555555555555555.

I think I was being sarcastic TB.555555555555555555555555555555

[trogers]

19 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Should the elderly foreigners go to jail for being naive? Or should the scammers be rounded up? The ownership structure plays no role in this so stop whining about it!

Ownership structure plays a key role. You cannot lose that you did not own in the first place. So you did not lose a house.

 

What you have lost is money paid for a promise what was unfulfilled.

[meatboy]

I wonder if any of them have the single,by THE DREAMING,  EMTPY PROMISES.

[scubascuba3]

That is a bit of false logic.
Yes, you could have bought a condo 15 years ago, doubled your money and lived rent free. However if you had thrown your money at the Thai stock market in 1994, you would still be under water now 23 years later. 
Asking prices in excess of 300,000 baht/m2 seem very high and could have a similar future as the SET had in 1994.

Wrong logic. 15 years of rent is ballpark the price of the condo so after 15 years its free rent approximately

[Lemonltr]

I must have read at least a dozen times on this thread that Foreigners cannot own land/houses in Thailand which bemuses me as although I know that we cannot own land I always believed we could own the house and lease the land for 30 years - leasehold not freehold.

As for being naive. I have met and read of so many who have been conned. Myself I never buckled under under intense pressure from my EX GF! Those who arrive in Pattaya have the disadvantage of meeting smart GF operators but the advantage of meeting expats to warn them. But as I have witnessed, those meeting on line and arriving directly up country are easier bait.

[Naam]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

However, they must have had a few clues to amass large amounts of money back home, but apparently lost their brains over the chance to live on "nob hill".

4 people were cheated out of 38 million Baht, i.e. 9.5 million each which is the equivalent of € 245,000 or the price of a very modest 120m² rowhouse in a remote German area. both gentlemen in the picture seem to be in their 60s, an age when it's normal having "amassed" that kind of "large amount" or in many cases a multiple of it.

 

of course mileages vary and i am well aware that my comment does not apply to those Farangs in Thailand who drink their beer sitting on the steps of a 7/11.

[impulse]

2 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

Nothing wrong buying in LOS and never had a problem.  Own 2 houses and 2 condos can't generalize like that. Used to have a lot more but cashed in for other reasons unrelated to 'buying is bad'.

 

I'm sure it works out for some, but the probability of things going tits up can't be calculated on one guy's experiences, or 10 guys'.  But it should certainly be factored into any financial decision.  If only the required numbers were published anywhere.  Between poor reporting, Thailand's defamation laws and many victims not wanting to admit they were swindled, it's anyone's guess.

 

I can't see myself ever buying real estate in Thailand- except maybe a condo to live in, but I can certainly understand the guys who do- for many reasons.  But without knowing the p(S) (that's shorthand for the probability of being (S)crewed), I don't get the ones that do it for financial reasons.  One good screwing can more than negate a dozen nice transactions.

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by impulse

[Totster]

8 hours ago, futsukayoi said:

Actually it is the lawyers responsibility to due diligence.  Of course this being Thailand they are usually the worst crooks of all and don't.  There was a similar situation in Koh Samui and there was no way to hold the lawyers accountable.

Ok, so what would the conclusion of your due diligence be, based on your post above?

 

totster :)

[dcnx]

On 9/25/2017 at 10:31 AM, trogers said:

Foxes got conned?

 

They know they cannot own land in Thailand but tried ways to go around that hurdle. So, who have the last laugh?

That's not true at all. A lot of noobs coming here are fooled by bogus lawyers and agents telling them otherwise. Their only real fault was not doing enough due diligence.

 

Scams can run very deep here and can happen to even the slickest know-it-all expat. Risks are higher if he's married to a local. Endless stories of them waiting 6, 7, 8+ years before screwing them over. 

[InMyShadow]

Snap out of of guys. There are a thousand ways for fools and their money to be parted across the globe starting from the total imbeciles who inheritatad everything and gave it to a Nigerian and it moves up from there one brain cell at a time

Thailand is at the lower end.. Bernie madoff fools near the top

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

Snap out of of guys. There are a thousand ways for fools and their money to be parted across the globe starting from the total imbeciles who inheritatad everything and gave it to a Nigerian and it moves up from there one brain cell at a time

Thailand is at the lower end.. Bernie madoff fools near the top

I think Bernie is busy sweeping the floor in his cell, he ain't fooling anybody anymore.

Edited September 26, 2017 by ExpatOilWorker

[trogers]

21 minutes ago, dcnx said:

That's not true at all. A lot of noobs coming here are fooled by bogus lawyers and agents telling them otherwise. Their only real fault was not doing enough due diligence.

 

Scams can run very deep here and can happen to even the slickest know-it-all expat. Risks are higher if he's married to a local. Endless stories of them waiting 6, 7, 8+ years before screwing them over. 

May be true before and during the infancy of the Internet.

 

Not possible in the past decade when knowledge is accessible through a few mouse clicks or sliding fingers. Unless the victims are too mentally retarded or lazy to look.

[InMyShadow]

I think Bernie is busy sweeping the floor in his cell, he ain't fooling anybody anymore.

Yes his partner ended up slitting his wrists with box cutters into a garbage bag whilst sitting in his plush office overlooking New York.
I think he won.

[marqus12]

The stupidest thing a retired man can do ... Move to the other end of the world to become a slave to real estate. Even apart from all the legal problems it is just dumb.

[Destiny1990]

10 hours ago, trogers said:

Ownership structure plays a key role. You cannot lose that you did not own in the first place. So you did not lose a house.

 

What you have lost is money paid for a promise what was unfulfilled.

Leasehold 30 years, company formation, usefruct it doesnt matter in all cases they would have lost their money so why does it matter then the ownership structure? It doesnt!

[giddyup]

19 minutes ago, marqus12 said:

The stupidest thing a retired man can do ... Move to the other end of the world to become a slave to real estate. Even apart from all the legal problems it is just dumb.

A slave? I bought a house here 8 years ago, I live in it with my partner, I enjoy the fact I can do anything I want in terms of decoration, garden, improvements etc, with no landlord dictating. Don't see myself as a slave. Certainly better than living in a box in a condo block.

[Ruffian Dick]

No property title search in Thailand?

[trogers]

2 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Leasehold 30 years, company formation, usefruct it doesnt matter in all cases they would have lost their money so why does it matter then the ownership structure? It doesnt!

Different kind of bait which they may not have bitten.