'Not appropriate,' envoy tells Britain's Boris over Kipling poem in Myanmar

[chickenslegs]

Here is the incident.

IMHO, not really as bad as it's been made out to be.

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

18 hours ago, jayboy said:

I don't buy the simple minded clown explanation of Boris Johnson.It's interesting to see over the last few months the sustained campaign in the UK media against Johnson.It gets me thinking that something about the man alarms the leftish commentariat, probably that he is an astonishingly successful retail politician - even though his star power is waning fast.

 

There will always be a chippiness among some that he received a privileged education - as though going to the world's leading school and leading university was a disqualification of some sort.He is clearly a highly intelligent man and a genuinely amusing one too.

 

Yet he hasn't much of a chance - too slaspdash, a philanderer,not enough friends in the House of Commons, too self centred etc.But I think it's a pity there are so few characters in politics.

 

Turning to the Kipling poem, I can't think of any other politician who would know how to quote it.

 

And I can't make head or tail of the geography in:

 

"An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer China 'crost the Bay!"

 

maybe so,  not much to offer in his current position, and likewise if he became PM I'd assume, he is at odds with the cabinet he is supposed to be loyal to, he is at odds with the PM, he is at odds with a long string of countries around

 

 

[dunroaming]

8 hours ago, champers said:

The poem was of its time.

David Davis is looking a more viable contender for Tory leader. Working class upbringing and a very succesful businessman. He can relate to ordinary people and their daily struggles more than priveleged ex public schoolboys.

Really?  The way Davis is screwing up the Brexit negotiations I would have said he was bottom of the list.  As for the working class upbringing..... we are talking about the Conservative party aren't we?  Relating to ordinary people and their daily struggles have never been of any concern to them.   I think Davis has reached past his best with the position he holds but clearly the direction from now will be down the slope.

 

May will not survive but it is more about how long she can hang on by her fingertips.  Johnson would be a disaster, as would JRM.  They are all pretty much a shower of "also rans".

[oldhippy]

Boris is in the European newspapers with his embarrassing poetry in Myanmar..... quite an achievement!

 

[melvinmelvin]

24 minutes ago, dunroaming said:

Really?  The way Davis is screwing up the Brexit negotiations I would have said he was bottom of the list.  As for the working class upbringing..... we are talking about the Conservative party aren't we?  Relating to ordinary people and their daily struggles have never been of any concern to them.   I think Davis has reached past his best with the position he holds but clearly the direction from now will be down the slope.

 

May will not survive but it is more about how long she can hang on by her fingertips.  Johnson would be a disaster, as would JRM.  They are all pretty much a shower of "also rans".

 

running short of PM candidates on foggy island are you?

 

guess Corbyn would have a go if invited

 

would also guess Blair could be persuaded

 

messy situation UK has managed to bring herself into

 

[chickenslegs]

36 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Boris is in the European newspapers with his embarrassing poetry in Myanmar..... quite an achievement!

 

 

I think it was P T Barnum that said "All publicity is good publicity".

 

And Oscar Wilde said "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about".

 

I'm not sure whether BJ is a clever guy who acts the fool, or just a fool - surely he can't be as thick as he seems.

 

As my Granny might have said "If he fell into a barrel of shit he would come out smelling of roses". He does seem to come out of these regular "gaffes" relatively unharmed.

[boomerangutang]

I was recently 17 days in Burma.  In an average year, I'm there about 34 days.  I like it better than Thailand for several reasons.

[dunroaming]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

running short of PM candidates on foggy island are you?

 

guess Corbyn would have a go if invited

 

would also guess Blair could be persuaded

 

messy situation UK has managed to bring herself into

 

Afraid so.  If there was another election tomorrow Corbyn would definitely be a serious contender.  Maybe not to take it outright, but certainly within a coalition.  Up the brown creek without a paddle doesn't come close!

[tryasimight]

What's the big deal with Kipling?

There is a Kipling cafe in Mandalay directly opposite the Palace. Serve up some decent chips too, not bad when washed down with a Dagon,

Edited October 1, 2017 by tryasimight

[dundee48]

21 hours ago, Kadilo said:

What a clown that bloke is. Worryingly likely to be the new Tory leader and Prime Minister. 

So this "incident" happened 9 months ago.Is this really all the leftie press have to try to discredit a leading Brexiteer?

[Kadilo]

3 hours ago, dundee48 said:

So this "incident" happened 9 months ago.Is this really all the leftie press have to try to discredit a leading Brexiteer?

9 months or 9 years, he's still a clown. Yeah leftie Reuters must be starved of news. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Kadilo

[JAG]

4 hours ago, dundee48 said:

So this "incident" happened 9 months ago.Is this really all the leftie press have to try to discredit a leading Brexiteer?

To be frank I hadn't paid much notice to the OP, seeing it as just the trigger for another round of "Boris Bashing". But having read your post I went back and had another look.

 

It appears that , having rung the temple bell he muttered a few lines of the poem, hardly the same as deliberately declaiming it in an attempt to irritate his hosts now was it?

 

A storm in a teacup - one full of very cold tea....

[jayboy]

 

Fraser Nelson in The Spectator writes

 

"I’m an admirer of Brian Cox so I was struck by a tweet of his yesterday, where he seemed to have encountered a scientific formula for the Antichrist. ‘If you removed all that is good in Britain, leaving only blimpish sludge, and emptied the residue into one man.’ It turns out that he was referring to the Foreign Secretary. The story in question was one where the Guardian claimed that Boris Johnson had ‘recited part of a colonial-era Rudyard Kipling poem’ in a Buddhist temple. The story was written to mislead the reader into thinking that Boris had read a poem in public in Burma, causing upset to guests. In fact, he’d been reminded of the Road to Mandalay, a poem that has inspired musicians (from Sinatra to Robbie Williams) for generations.

He had been asked to ring a temple bell in Burma. Not many will have heard the sound of those bells, but those who have heard of them will likely have done so via the Road to Mandalay. As a poem, it’s not at all well-known, but as a Sinatra number it’s certainly familiar to people of Boris’s generation. Here are the opening lines:-

BY THE old Moulmein Pagoda, lookin’ lazy at the sea,
There’s a Burma girl a-settin’, and I know she thinks o’ me;
For the wind is in the palm-trees, and the temple-bells they say:
“Come you back, you British soldier; come you back to Mandalay!”

Sinatra was one of dozens of artists to put these mesmerising words to song (above). Charles Dance read the poem on VJ Day, chosen as it is a paean to the world ‘East of Suez’. Its appeal is simple: it’s about wanting to be somewhere else, dreaming about someone, and what might be waiting. A place, in Kipling’s words, where ‘the wind is in the palm trees’, and the ‘temple bells are calling’: a few lines that conjure a vivid mental picture. And there Boris was, in Burma, doubtless having heard the wind in the trees and actually been given the great honour of ringing one of those temple bells. And, who knows, perhaps having witnessed some of that Burmese beauty that so bewitched the 24-year-old Kipling in the first place.

So it’s easy to see why he thought of those Mandalay. And it was understandable why the ambassador might worry that his recollection might develop into a recital not entirely appropriate for a temple (Sinatra’s version refers to a ‘Burmese broad’ and Kipling’s original has a unreverential reference to Buddha.) But I doubt even Boris was going to go there. He’s not one of these deracinated, safety-first politicians: he thinks about poems, language, culture. It makes him more of a real person. That’s why he has a lot more fans (and detractors) than most Cabinet members.

But what’s striking is the extent that his detractors can so easily persuade themselves that a non-event like this is a diplomatic humiliation for Britain. Rushanara Ali even told the Guardian that Boris remembering Mandalay shows why he should not be Prime Minister. So much fuss, based on so little: what Boris might call an inverted pyramid of piffle.

This shrill, almost hysterical reaction to everyday Boris action is, I suspect, going to be a theme of the next few weeks. He seems to drive certain people quite mad. So I suspect we’ll see quite a few more of these non-scandals in the days ahead."

[VocalNeal]

So a guy learns classic literature  poem in school which for him evokes ideas of the mystic east. Maybe even  evokes a sense of desire and fondest for the distant country eluded to in the poem. Then on a visit to the mystic east he is reminded of the poem and starts to recite it as he would have done at school.

 

I don't see much wrong with that. I would think that residents of Myanmar would be flattered that he remembered a poem about their country. 

 

Agreed there are some dodgy religious lines like:

 

An' a-wastin' Christian kisses on an 'eathen idol's foot:
Bloomin' idol made o' mud 
Wot they called the Great Gawd Budd

 

but he didn't recite those. Nor probably would he. 

 

As for the poem it sound like my thoughts of , at least, Thailand and Indonesia having not been to Myanmar and most of the reason I like it here.

 

An' the sunshine an' the palm-trees an' the tinkly temple-bells; ...  Where there aren't no Ten Commandments an' a man can raise a thirst;

 

 

 

  

Edited October 2, 2017 by VocalNeal

[jayboy]

 

[billd766]

On 10/1/2017 at 7:47 AM, nausea said:

 

Indeed, Kipling had "Asian Fever" himself:

 

"I love the Burman with the blind favouritism born of first impression. When I die I will be a Burman … and I will always walk about with a pretty almond-coloured girl ... ."

 

And apart from its obvious  colonial connotations there's also this:

 

"n' a-wastin' Christian kisses on an 'eathen idol's foot:
Bloomin' idol made o'mud --
Wot they called the Great Gawd Budd --"

 

I'm sure that would go down well in Buddhist Myanmar.

 

The poem was written 127 years ago long before all this pc crap came about. You mustn't say things like that nowadays.

 

Too many people are trying to rewrite history from todays perspective and it doesn't work.

 

Can anybody truly say that the people of Burma, sorry pc strikes again, Myanmar are any better of nowadays than the were when Britain ruled Burma?

 

Back then there was one rule of law and order for ALL Burmans, nobody really starved, there was the beginnings of an education system as there was in the UK at that time

On 10/1/2017 at 8:29 AM, jayboy said:

I don't buy the simple minded clown explanation of Boris Johnson.It's interesting to see over the last few months the sustained campaign in the UK media against Johnson.It gets me thinking that something about the man alarms the leftish commentariat, probably that he is an astonishingly successful retail politician - even though his star power is waning fast.

 

There will always be a chippiness among some that he received a privileged education - as though going to the world's leading school and leading university was a disqualification of some sort.He is clearly a highly intelligent man and a genuinely amusing one too.

 

Yet he hasn't much of a chance - too slaspdash, a philanderer,not enough friends in the House of Commons, too self centred etc.But I think it's a pity there are so few characters in politics.

 

Turning to the Kipling poem, I can't think of any other politician who would know how to quote it.

 

And I can't make head or tail of the geography in:

 

"An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer China 'crost the Bay!"

 

 

"An' the dawn comes up like thunder outer China 'crost the Bay!"

 

http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/rg_mandalay1.htm

 

On the road to Mandalay ...

As Kipling later observed:
 

Had I opened the chorus of the song with `Oh' instead of 'On the road,' etc., it might have shown that the song was a sort of general mix-up of the singer's Far-Eastern memories against a background of the Bay of Bengal as seen at dawn from-a troop-ship taking him there. But ` On ' in this case was more singable than `Oh.' That simple explanation may stand as a warning. [Something of Myself, p. 222.)

That one should not take poetry too literally [Ed.]

 

 

[JAG]

^^^^

Bravo.

[JAG]

16 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

 

I think it was P T Barnum that said "All publicity is good publicity".

 

And Oscar Wilde said "The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about".

 

I'm not sure whether BJ is a clever guy who acts the fool, or just a fool - surely he can't be as thick as he seems.

 

As my Granny might have said "If he fell into a barrel of shit he would come out smelling of roses". He does seem to come out of these regular "gaffes" relatively unharmed.

4

I've read several of his books, and quite a lot of his journalism.

 

He is not a fool.

 

He is intensley disliked in a number of circles. The left loathes him, because he persuaded the people of London to elect him Mayor - twice. I suspect the thought that he could do the same thing nationally rather worries them.

 

Much of the media and "commentariat" loathe him - because he pays no attention to what they think or say, and is a proven better journalist and author than many of them.

 

A lot of the Conservative Party loathe him because he is a much more capable, clever and popular politician than most of them.

 

I don't think he will make it to Downing Street. If he does it will be quite a ride...

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, JAG said:

.

 

Much of the media and "commentariat" loathe him - because he pays no attention to what they think or say, and is a proven better journalist and author than many of them.

 

 

Better journalist? Better fabulist, maybe. Wasn't he fired from the Times for lying?

"He began his career in journalism at The Times but was sacked for falsifying a quotation."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Johnson

[Slip]

13 hours ago, dundee48 said:

So this "incident" happened 9 months ago.Is this really all the leftie press have to try to discredit a leading Brexiteer?

 

10 hours ago, Kadilo said:

9 months or 9 years, he's still a clown. Yeah leftie Reuters must be starved of news. 

 

I think the reason it is news now is that the documentary it is part of has just, or is imminently, being shown on BBC World.  I'm sure I've seen them flogging it on adverts.  

[rott]

22 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Boris is in the European newspapers with his embarrassing poetry in Myanmar..... quite an achievement!

 

Quite right. Why did he never do the decent thing like Jeremy and share political platforms with Adams and McGuinness.

[Nigel Garvie]

On 10/1/2017 at 10:46 AM, jayboy said:

Lets examine this a little.Rees Mogg has made it clear he's not in the running for the leadership despite the silly season gossip.He is a Roman Catholic who takes his religion seriously.He does not expect others to be bound by his beliefs which would not in fact have been unusual in the relatively recent past.He is certainly on the right wing of his party but since when was that a crime? He is scrupulously polite to his opponents (as is Jeremy Corbyn) and has made friends with many MPs on all sides.He is said to be a wonderful constituency MP working as hard for those who opposed him as those who supported him.He refuses to engage in deception and what you see is what you get.I wouldn't vote for him but I certainly think he is a very useful member of the Commons.

 

As I have often noted what provokes the chippy lower middle class more than anything else is the sight of a toff.They simply can't stand an old fashioned gent hence the use of insults like Jacob Sleaze-Toff etc.

I just noticed your post after some time away. It is considered, fairly well written, and deserves a reply.

 

The fact that JRM shows unquestioning faith in a church racked by a long history of child abuse (However rational or IMHO irrational their actual beliefs) does him no credit. Incidentally Corbyn’s  unquestioning faith in the relevance of glorious 1970s Socialist beliefs to every problem of the 21c does him no credit either. JRM’s undoubted politeness fails to disguise his underlying elitism, and lack of consideration for those less fortunate than he is, clearly shown during a recent radio 4  “Any Questions".

 

It is hard to find any other way to read your final paragraph, than to take it as indicating that you take me to be “chippy lower middle class”, either per se or by association. I could see this as being rude, pompous, and patronising, but I don’t consider that anyone should be ashamed of being a member of any particular social grouping. As it happens my family background is professional middle class, although I am a craftsman myself. Due to circumstances beyond my control I spent most of my teenage years being brought up among the “Toffs”. Familiarity certainly did (With a few notable exceptions) breed very well informed contempt. 

 

However, as corrupt as I consider many MPs - Tory in particular - to be,  I will grant you that the use of the word sleaze was likely to be unjustified in this case, JRM doesn't need the money for sure - it rhymed to easily. 

[jayboy]

2 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I just noticed your post after some time away. It is considered, fairly well written, and deserves a reply.

 

The fact that JRM shows unquestioning faith in a church racked by a long history of child abuse (However rational or IMHO irrational their actual beliefs) does him no credit. Incidentally Corbyn’s  unquestioning faith in the relevance of glorious 1970s Socialist beliefs to every problem of the 21c does him no credit either. JRM’s undoubted politeness fails to disguise his underlying elitism, and lack of consideration for those less fortunate than he is, clearly shown during a recent radio 4  “Any Questions".

 

It is hard to find any other way to read your final paragraph, than to take it as indicating that you take me to be “chippy lower middle class”, either per se or by association. I could see this as being rude, pompous, and patronising, but I don’t consider that anyone should be ashamed of being a member of any particular social grouping. As it happens my family background is professional middle class, although I am a craftsman myself. Due to circumstances beyond my control I spent most of my teenage years being brought up among the “Toffs”. Familiarity certainly did (With a few notable exceptions) breed very well informed contempt. 

 

However, as corrupt as I consider many MPs - Tory in particular - to be,  I will grant you that the use of the word sleaze was likely to be unjustified in this case, JRM doesn't need the money for sure - it rhymed to easily. 

JRM is a Roman Catholic and I imagine he is as appalled as you or I by child abuse within the church.If "elitist" means a preference for education, intelligence and distrust of the mob, then JRM is an elitist - as am I.

 

Nothing in your rather peculiar final paragraph in which you ramble on anxiously and somewhat unconvincingly about obscure social origins convinces me that JRM's real crime in your eyes is that he is a old fashioned toff.