What constitutes a bank?

[sinbin]

For the last few years I've had my 800,000 in a fixed term account  with the 'BURIRAM TEACHERS SAVING'S COOPERATIVE'. Interest rate currently 4.25%. When I first took out the account I was assured by them that immigration accepted a letter from them confirming my deposited money. I then confirmed with immigration that they will accept their letter.

 

For the last couple of years immigration have been issuing me a retirement extension, never a problem. I went today to renew my extension. The officer went through all my documents etc before submitting it to the senior officer for signature. The senior officer said 'no' because he claims my money wasn't in a 'BANK' as per immigration laws. I asked why I'd been given extensions in the past. I was told 'a mistake had been made and we won't talk about it'. I said 'yes we will because I'm now in deep trouble'. I said 'what about the mistakes before.' He wouldn't reply.

 

I said 'okay yous made a mistake which misled me. So can you give me my extension this time and I will change to a 'BANK(?)' for next time? Answer was 'no, but if you change to a 'BANK(?) before 24th we will give you your  extension.

I've now sorted the monies out and will go back next week to get the extension. What I'd like to know is there a definition as to what ones money has to be deposited in to get an extension? It seems that the common run of the mill desk jockies don't know and their supervisors as well. Has/does anyone know of any immigration offices that accept deposits in Cooperatives?

Edited October 5, 2017 by sinbin

[elviajero]

17 minutes ago, sinbin said:

What I'd like to know is there a definition as to what ones money has to be deposited in to get an extension?

There's nothing published in the public domain that I know of other than the term "bank". There could be internal definitions issued to the offices, but at the end of the day senior officers running each office have a certain amount of autonomy, and what they say goes.

[mfd101]

If you had adopted the attitude and appearance of believing that it was all YOUR own fault and not theirs, you might have received a better result.

 

Save THEIR face and YOU can release a tirade in the car on the way home.

[BritTim]

1 minute ago, mfd101 said:

If you had adopted the attitude and appearance of believing that it was all YOUR own fault and not theirs, you might have received a better result.

 

Save THEIR face and YOU can release a tirade in the car on the way home.

Actually, it seems a face saving solution was found. There is no evidence that the OP showed lack of respect, or raised his voice. He pointed out, quite reasonably, that he could scarcely be expected to be aware that he had been given incorrect advice, BY OTHER OFFICIALS,  in past years. The senior official seems eventually have agreed with him, and the compromise was not to insist on seasoning of funds in the bank account.

[mfd101]

2 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Actually, it seems a face saving solution was found. There is no evidence that the OP showed lack of respect, or raised his voice. He pointed out, quite reasonably, that he could scarcely be expected to be aware that he had been given incorrect advice, BY OTHER OFFICIALS,  in past years. The senior official seems eventually have agreed with him, and the compromise was not to insist on seasoning of funds in the bank account.

You may be right, but that's not how I read the OP's comments. What seems to a 'Westerner' a perfectly reasonable response in an awkward situation is not always accepted that way by Thais, particularly by those in authority. FACE before logic.

[Aditi Sharma]

This poser by the OP needs answering I guess: Has/does anyone know of any immigration offices that accept deposits in Cooperatives? But how would the information help him in the present case I dont know. 

 

[Just Weird]

The answer is that Immigration requirements are that the funds are deposited in a bank.  A teacher's savings co-operative obviously isn't a bank.

 

To expect the co-op to give you any answer other than "yes, it'll be fine" when there's the prospect of 800k heading their way is a little naive. 

 

You've just been lucky having it accepted (maybe not noticed?) in the past.  Maybe it would have helped the situation if you'd shown them the letter from Immigration confirming that a co-op deposit was acceptable to them.

[BritTim]

28 minutes ago, Aditi Sharma said:

This poser by the OP needs answering I guess: Has/does anyone know of any immigration offices that accept deposits in Cooperatives? But how would the information help him in the present case I dont know. 

That information would be of intellectual interest, but not useful to people applying for extensions. If there is any scope for interpretation, individual offices can, and will, set their own local rules. As the official in charge changes, so may the local rules.

 

It is probably wise to check each year on the current rules at your local office, raising, in particular, any items that are not clear cut. Outside of that, be polite when dealing with officials if surprises occur, but also prepared to ask for help in finding solutions to problems that are really not your fault.

[observer90210]

Subjectively, there is are the Thai laws in the books,  decrees etc.

 

 Objectively, on a daily basis, it is the law of the individual IO officer or office that applies, under which one is totally dependant of his/her/their mercy ...

 

And always remember, when money issues are required for display to any Thai government official....for many it can be more then what they make in a year or a lifetime...for the honest ones at least !!....thus extra humility, a modest but well pressed shirt, pant and smiles are mandatory !!

Edited October 5, 2017 by observer90210

[sinbin]

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

There's nothing published in the public domain that I know of other than the term "bank". There could be internal definitions issued to the offices

 Definition - A bank is a financial institution that accepts deposits from the public and creates credit.

 

1 hour ago, mfd101 said:

If you had adopted the attitude and appearance of believing that it was all YOUR own fault and not theirs,

They admitted they'd, or someone, had in the past.

 

51 minutes ago, Aditi Sharma said:

This poser by the OP needs answering I guess: Has/does anyone know of any immigration offices that accept deposits in Cooperatives? But how would the information help him in the present case I dont know. 

 

I told the officer that on my return I would find out if any offices accept deposits in a Cooperative.

 

41 minutes ago, Just Weird said:

To expect the co-op to give you any answer other than "yes, it'll be fine" when there's the prospect of 800k

I never told them how much I intended to deposit.

 

18 minutes ago, BritTim said:

individual offices can, and will, set their own local rules.

In this case they got the Law book out and each of the 4 officers kept reading the section that covered the rule over and over again. They wouldn't let my wife see it.

[Lincsman]

Last week I was verbally told by the London Embassy that the funds needed to be in a deposit/savings account.

This week I was verbally told by the London Embassy that it needs to be in a current account to allow easy access to the funds.

Although I'm applying for the O/A Visa I think the requirements are mostly the same.

In spambots post it shows a letter which states a current account only, see link

 

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, sinbin said:

In this case they got the Law book out and each of the 4 officers kept reading the section that covered the rule over and over again. They wouldn't let my wife see it.

In the English translation of the police orders for extensions it says bank. You could have your wife look at clause 2.22 (5) here. Police Order 327/2557 Thai text

[sinbin]

23 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

2.22 (5) here. Police Order 327/2557 Thai text

My wife says 2.20 is there but the next one is 2.23. The one you indicated isn't there. She has been known to be  wrong. Most times.

Edited October 5, 2017 by sinbin

[BritTim]

31 minutes ago, sinbin said:

58 minutes ago, BritTim said:

individual offices can, and will, set their own local rules.

In this case they got the Law book out and each of the 4 officers kept reading the section that covered the rule over and over again. They wouldn't let my wife see it.

I believe the most common interpretation of 'ธนาคาร' will be the Thai commercial and retail banks (list available at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banks_in_Thailand). Some will probably include the State banks. Foreign banks with Thai branches and cooperatives (in my view) will probably mostly not be allowed. However, different officials will have different interpretations. We see the same with financial proof at consulates outside Thailand. What they accept is all over the map.

[sinbin]

I found the English translation. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwNib_gx9zYEYkFjMUNHV1pXdWs/view I think?

Edited October 5, 2017 by sinbin

[BritTim]

32 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

In the English translation of the police orders for extensions it says bank. You could have your wife look at clause 2.22 (5) here. Police Order 327/2557 Thai text

I do note that a different clause in the police order refers to "bank which is registered in Thailand and has Thai nationals holding more 50 percent". I assume that "registered" would mean registered as a bank, not another kind of financial institution. However, I still say it is academic, as an official is free to interpret this in any way he sees fit.

[sinbin]

I'd imagine a cooperative would have to be registered and licenced to undertake the business it does?

[ubonjoe]

18 minutes ago, sinbin said:

I found the English translation. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwNib_gx9zYEYkFjMUNHV1pXdWs/view I think?

It and police order 138/2757 that lists the documents required can also be found in this pinned topic.

 

[Aditi Sharma]

The senior immigration official is the sole interpreter of the rules, isn't he? What is the best way to please him to avoid a run-around? 

[sinbin]

So why did the senior officers in the past allow my extension? On top of that none of the desk jockies pulled it up also. This time the senior officer can bend the rules to overlook the seasoning my 800,000 in a bank. As my missus says he could have overlooked this as others have before him. Side thing. This is why my missus doesn't like going into immigration with me, she sits outside, because every year it's always something else they miss-interpret. She gets more peed off with them than I do.

[Aditi Sharma]

6 minutes ago, sinbin said:

So why did the senior officers in the past allow my extension? On top of that none of the desk jockies pulled it up also. This time the senior officer can bend the rules to overlook the seasoning my 800,000 in a bank. As my missus says he could have overlooked this as others have before him. Side thing. This is why my missus doesn't like going into immigration with me, she sits outside, because every year it's always something else they miss-interpret. She gets more peed off with them than I do.

What if he is pulled up for overlooking when others so far got away with it? Is there no scope for standardizing the rules? What seems to be the problem in standardizing the rules; after all they speak the same language throughout the Kingdom, dont they? 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Aditi Sharma
edit

[sinbin]

4 minutes ago, Aditi Sharma said:

What if he is pulled up for overlooking when others so far got away with it? Is there no scope for standardizing the rules? What seems to be the problem in standardizing the rules; after all they speak the same language throughout the Kingdom, dont they? 

As I see it Thailand deliberately leave all their laws/rules to allow for interpretation by whoever sees fit. It's a way of keeping people down.

Edited October 5, 2017 by sinbin

[saakura]

Absolutely and utterly disgusting behaviour of the immigration officer. A cooperative is far more likely to give out loans to farmers and small local businesses, which fulfills the primary aim of the rule requiring you to keep a deposit which helps the country's economy. 

Edited October 5, 2017 by saakura

[Aditi Sharma]

2 minutes ago, sinbin said:

As I see it Thailand deliberately leave all their laws/rules to allow for interpretation by whoever sees fit.

More like allows arbitrary interpretation. Surely one would have been happier if one could use it to one's advantage.

[Aditi Sharma]

1 minute ago, saakura said:

Absolutely and utterly disgusting behaviour of the immigration officer. A cooperative is far more likely to give out loans to farmers and small local businesses, which fulfills the primary aim of the rule requiring you to keep a deposit which helps the country's economy. 

Yes and the tyranny of it, ugh. But expecting 'em to bend the rules under the circumstances is overly optimistic as well. But there is a school of thought that the senior officer could have been pleased and persuaded to consider OP's position too. I have seen that in such a situation a woman does it better than a man. 

[saakura]

34 minutes ago, Aditi Sharma said:

Yes and the tyranny of it, ugh. But expecting 'em to bend the rules under the circumstances is overly optimistic as well. But there is a school of thought that the senior officer could have been pleased and persuaded to consider OP's position too. I have seen that in such a situation a woman does it better than a man. 

Who is talking about bending any rules, i am just saying that a cooperative bank  is a bank which comes under the BOT banking regulations is a better bank to help local economy. And why should anyone grovel and prostrate himself in front of any authority? Shameless immigration officer should be demoted.

Edited October 5, 2017 by saakura

[sinbin]

15 minutes ago, saakura said:

i am just saying that a cooperative bank which is a bank

That is open to interpretation being as 'bank' doesn't appear in it's name even though it does the same as a bank except transfer money. To transfer money it uses Krungthai bank for that.

 

After closing my Coop account I had to go to a Krungthai bank to transfer my 800,000 into my Bangkok bank account. To electronically transfer from Krungthai to my Bangkok bank they wanted 1,000 baht. I took cash. No charge.

Edited October 5, 2017 by sinbin

[Aditi Sharma]

15 minutes ago, saakura said:

Who is talking about bending any rules, i am just saying that 

I thought sinbin justifiably was looking for some leeway...

 

55 minutes ago, sinbin said:

So why did the senior officers in the past allow my extension? On top of that none of the desk jockies pulled it up also. This time the senior officer can bend the rules to overlook the seasoning my 800,000 in a bank. As my missus says he could have overlooked this as others have before him. Side thing. This is why my missus doesn't like going into immigration with me, she sits outside, because every year it's always something else they miss-interpret. She gets more peed off with them than I do.

 

If officers get demoted for this reason then we are misinterpreting their behaviour here.

[saakura]

7 minutes ago, sinbin said:

That is open to interpretation being as 'bank' doesn't appear in it's name even though it does the same as a bank except transfer money. To transfer money it uses Krungthai bank for that.

 

After closing my Coop account I had to go to a Krungthai bank to transfer my 800,000 into my Bangkok bank account.

Then i take back my words. It is a bank only if it comes under the BOT Banking regulations. You cant give your 800k to any Somchai.

[Aditi Sharma]

Is there such a thing as BOT banking regulations. Does it require the word bank in the names of banks? 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Aditi Sharma
word blindness