What constitutes a bank?

[saakura]

3 minutes ago, Aditi Sharma said:

I thought sinbin justifiably was looking for some leeway...

 

 

If officers get demoted for this reason then we are misinterpreting their behaviour here.

Agree, see my post above.

[Aditi Sharma]

Arent there foreign banks in Thailand like RBS, Citibank ---dont they come under the Thai regulations for OP's purposes? Anybody?

[saakura]

3 minutes ago, Aditi Sharma said:

Is there such a thing as BOT banking regulations. Does it require the word name in the names of banks? 

Every country in this world has a 'central bank' or 'reserve bank' or whatever you may call it (BOT in this instance) which regulates all the banks and is generally an indepedant body not under the control of the government.

[topt]

6 hours ago, sinbin said:

'BURIRAM TEACHERS SAVING'S COOPERATIVE'. Interest rate currently 4.25%.

I can understand the OP being miffed but I was amazed to see this - where else do you get that sort of interest on a savings deposit?

 

Also does this organisation fall under the BOT guarantee on deposits otherwise I would be a little concerned............

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The Immigration regulation on this subject says BANK in Thailand.

 

The entity the OP was dealing with was the 'BURIRAM TEACHERS SAVING'S COOPERATIVE -- not the Buriram Teachers Savings Bank.

 

That ought to kind of answer the question.

 

Another kind of important indicator: the OP's savings cooperative entity is NOT covered by the Thai government's Deposit Protection Agency (DPA), which is supposed to protect bank depositors' funds in the event a bank becomes insolvent/fails.  None of the various Thai savings cooperatives have that deposit insurance protection, and quite a few lately seem to have fallen victim to various financial shenanigans.

 

See below for the list as of 2016 of commercial banks in Thailand covered by DPA. The first part of the list is the regular traditional Thai banks. The latter part of the list are foreign banks with branch presence in Thailand, and not all of them engage in retail/consumer banking.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[sanemax]

5 hours ago, mfd101 said:

You may be right, but that's not how I read the OP's comments. What seems to a 'Westerner' a perfectly reasonable response in an awkward situation is not always accepted that way by Thais, particularly by those in authority. FACE before logic.

This whole "losing face" issue really isnt as prevalent in Thailand as most Westerners believe that it is , and it gets quite tedious people going on about it all the time .

  Basically, you just dont get angry, be rude or raise your voice or belittle other people and most issues pass quite smoothly .

  Its about acting civilly.

[Just Weird]

5 hours ago, sinbin said:

 Definition - A bank is a financial institution that accepts deposits from the public and creates credit.

 

I never told them how much I intended to deposit.

 "A bank is a financial institution that accepts deposits from the public and creates credit."

That doesn't mean, though, that every financial institution that takes deposits is a bank.

 

You told the co-op that there was an Immigration connection and that they'd need to supply documentation to to confirm your deposit so they'd have a pretty good idea that it wasn't going to be 10 bob.

[Just Weird]

4 hours ago, sinbin said:

I'd imagine a cooperative would have to be registered and licenced to undertake the business it does?

Being registered as a co-operative doesn't make the co-op a bank which is where the money has to be.

[BritTim]

A list of all institutions, of the various types, that operate under rules defined by the Bank of Thailand is available at https://www.bot.or.th/English/FinancialInstitutions/WebsiteFI/Pages/InstList.aspx?pie1=11. Select the Institution Type to see just those institutions of the kind you are interested in.

[Just Weird]

1 hour ago, sinbin said:

As I see it Thailand deliberately leave all their laws/rules to allow for interpretation by whoever sees fit. It's a way of keeping people down.

There was no misinterpretation by Immigration when you went to get your latest extension, your funds needed to be in a bank but they weren't.

[Just Weird]

1 hour ago, saakura said:

Absolutely and utterly disgusting behaviour of the immigration officer. A cooperative is far more likely to give out loans to farmers and small local businesses, which fulfills the primary aim of the rule requiring you to keep a deposit which helps the country's economy. 

The thing is, Immigration does not demand that funds for extensions are deposited with an institution "that is far more likely to give out loans to farmers and small local businesses", it demands that they are in a bank. 

 

The primary aim of the rule that needs to be fulfilled is to have deposits in banks.  It is not an IO's job to decide whether an applicants deposit is helping the economy.

[Just Weird]

1 hour ago, saakura said:

... i am just saying that a cooperative bank  is a bank which comes under the BOT banking regulations is a better bank to help local economy.

...but, even though you incorrectly call the co-op a bank, the teachers co-operative is not a bank, that's the point.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Just Weird

[gk10002000]

5 hours ago, saakura said:

Absolutely and utterly disgusting behaviour of the immigration officer. A cooperative is far more likely to give out loans to farmers and small local businesses, which fulfills the primary aim of the rule requiring you to keep a deposit which helps the country's economy. 

Yeah, but a cooperative that is basically un regulated, un-insured, has no oversight, etc.  is in my mind quite different from a Bank where one's cash deposits are supposedly pretty available and can be counted on to be there.  I wonder if the OP would be able to make withdrawals from the cooperative to pay living expenses before the money had to be seasoned again.

[sinbin]

3 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

I wonder if the OP would be able to make withdrawals from the cooperative to pay living expenses before the money had to be seasoned again.

No problem. As I've said previously they provide the same services as banks. Ask your wives. These Coop's are everywhere. The police have them, nurses have them, teachers have them, farmers have them. Most major provincial towns/cities will have one or more.

 

4 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

a cooperative that is basically un regulated, un-insured, has no oversight, etc. 

And you got that information from where? 

[sinbin]

8 hours ago, Just Weird said:

You told the co-op that there was an Immigration connection and that they'd need to supply documentation to to confirm your deposit so they'd have a pretty good idea that it wasn't going to be 10 bob

In fact when I went to withdraw my funds my wife mentioned the refusal by immigration to accept their letter they said they had other farangs that they issued letters to each year. May be I'm just the first?

[sinbin]

8 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

OP's savings cooperative entity is NOT covered by the Thai government's Deposit Protection Agency

So??? If the Cooperative isn't a bank and not covered then it is more likely to be a 'Credit Union'. Irrespective Why should immigration control my choice of where I deposit my monies. It's in Thailand and it's accountable. If the Coop crashes that is then my problem. Old saying, only invest what you can afford to lose.

 

Quote

Credit Union movement in Thailand was legally accepted by the government and registered under the Cooperatives Law and supervised by the Cooperative Promotion Department, the Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives.

http://www.fao.org/docrep/006/ad491e/ad491e04.htm

Edited October 6, 2017 by sinbin

[sinbin]

For all those that think Cooperatives are not protected.   http://ilo.ch/dyn/natlex/docs/SERIAL/61877/55153/F1409260389/THA61877.pdf

[catman20]

i have a similar question i have money in a sterling account held with Bangkok bank in Thailand can i use that money there as my security for my retirement visa ?

[sinbin]

3 minutes ago, catman20 said:

i have a similar question i have money in a sterling account held with Bangkok bank in Thailand can i use that money there as my security for my retirement visa ?

For piece of mind why don't you take it and change it into Baht and then bank it? Thereby covering your ass in a situation similar to mine.

[catman20]

1 minute ago, sinbin said:

For piece of mind why don't you take it and change it into Baht and then bank it? Thereby covering your ass in a situation similar to mine.

because i dont i ike the idea of 43 bahts to the pound, id rather wait until i can get a bit more of a decent rate, but thx anyway.

[ubonjoe]

14 minutes ago, catman20 said:

i have a similar question i have money in a sterling account held with Bangkok bank in Thailand can i use that money there as my security for my retirement visa ?

Most immigration offices will accept the funds being in a foreign currency account. 

[sinbin]

5 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Most immigration offices

Always prepare for the exception. Buriram , Kap Choeng and Korat being 3 that seem to interpret the rules/laws differently every year.

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, sinbin said:

If the Coop crashes that is then my problem. Old saying, only invest what you can afford to lose.

The 800k they want to see in a bank account are meant as a backup. Now imagine somebody has just the 800k in a coop account and is in Thailand and the cooperative becomes insolvent. Now this person is in Thailand without money and then it's somehow also Thailand's problem and not only his own. This is the reason they require you to have the money in the bank where it's protected.

[elgenon]

But the money won't have been seasoned. More problems ahead?

[Aditi Sharma]

11 hours ago, Just Weird said:

The thing is, Immigration does not demand that funds for extensions are deposited with an institution "that is far more likely to give out loans to farmers and small local businesses", it demands that they are in a bank. 

 

The primary aim of the rule that needs to be fulfilled is to have deposits in banks.  It is not an IO's job to decide whether an applicants deposit is helping the economy.

I think Saakura was stating a personal opinion which had nothing to do with the rules under which they operated.  I would like to know what was the problem with having your funds in a co-operative rather than a bank proper for immigration purposes.  Surely it cannot be that because co-operatives were far more likely to give out loans to farmers and small local businesses your funds deposited with them were sub-prime, if you see what I mean. There's got to be another reason, I suspect. What constitutes a co-operative? for starters. Have the immigration firmly ruled before that  co-operatives were not banks? In the OP's case they have thereby setting a precedent.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Aditi Sharma
edit

[Shiver]

17 hours ago, sinbin said:

 Definition - A bank is a financial institution that accepts deposits from the public and creates credit.

 

While a bank can accept deposits, a non bank could do the same.  Putting together other posters points it seems more important that fast access has to be possible (current account), which may not be possible with a Savings institution, even if it is a bank.  So notionally the Officer was doing the correct thing, except....

 

What would undermines the Officials point, is that you managed to access the savings and move them to a bank at short notice.

 

[stevenl]

4 hours ago, sinbin said:

Always prepare for the exception. Buriram , Kap Choeng and Korat being 3 that seem to interpret the rules/laws differently every year.

Was your money with the cooperative accessible without any financial penalty or waiting period?

[Aditi Sharma]

Wont any local agencies manned or womaned by Thais take care of this for a fee? Expats have work to do.

[Just Weird]

4 hours ago, Aditi Sharma said:

I think Saakura was stating a personal opinion which had nothing to do with the rules under which they operated.  I would like to know what was the problem with having your funds in a co-operative rather than a bank proper for immigration purposes.  Surely it cannot be that because co-operatives were far more likely to give out loans to farmers and small local businesses your funds deposited with them were sub-prime, if you see what I mean. There's got to be another reason, I suspect. What constitutes a co-operative? for starters. Have the immigration firmly ruled before that  co-operatives were not banks? In the OP's case they have thereby setting a precedent.

Immigration does not make the rules about which institutions are banks, the Bank Of Thailand does that, and saving co-operatives are not banks. 

 

Immigration makes the rules about which institutions are acceptable places for visa funds to be held and those places are banks,  the reason for it is irrelevant.

 

One IO overlooking the official requirement in the past is not setting a precedent for future applications.

[BritTim]

4 hours ago, Aditi Sharma said:

I think Saakura was stating a personal opinion which had nothing to do with the rules under which they operated.  I would like to know what was the problem with having your funds in a co-operative rather than a bank proper for immigration purposes.  Surely it cannot be that because co-operatives were far more likely to give out loans to farmers and small local businesses your funds deposited with them were sub-prime, if you see what I mean. There's got to be another reason, I suspect. What constitutes a co-operative? for starters. Have the immigration firmly ruled before that  co-operatives were not banks? In the OP's case they have thereby setting a precedent.

The officials' reason is very simple. Their own opinion is that a cooperative is not a bank. They are probably even correct. There is a set of regulations for banks (under the Bank of Thailand) and a set of rules for cooperatives (under the Board of National Cooperative Development). Some officials will probably make a different determination, but IMHO a cooperative in Thailand is not a bank, and it is not the job of the immigration officials to decide it should be treated as such. If the law is intended to allow accounts in financial institutions other than banks, it should say so.