U.S. VP Pence leaves NFL game after players kneel during anthem

[LannaGuy]

1 minute ago, mikebike said:

You called it the "Rulebook" until more informed posters pointed out it was the "Operations Manual". 

 

This section of the Operations manual was drafted circa 2008-2009 as a result of PAID sponsorship from the DoD to the NFL. Prior to this teams stayed in the dressing room until AFTER the national anthem was played.

 

Who pointed it out?  it's part of the RULES  have some HONOUR when posting please.  No one pointed it out after that rant by the uninformed. I pointed it out. Two documents for RULES one for the game, one for conduct.

 

I accept the NFL have chosen to ignore their own document for political reasons but they are busily destroying half their fan base. 

 

http://www.newsweek.com/sport-donald-trump-nfl-680665

Edited October 10, 2017 by LannaGuy

[Thakkar]

 

Time marks 2:53 to 6:22 pertains to this topic, which is about Pence’s choreographed political publicity stunt, after which he went to a fund raiser.

[mikebike]

22 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Who pointed it out?  it's part of the RULES  have some HONOUR when posting please.  No one pointed it out after that rant by the uninformed. I pointed it out.

 

3 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

 

 Pages A62-63 of the NFL League Rulebook

 

 

1 hour ago, attrayant said:

Analysis: The NFL rulebook makes no mention of the national anthem. But the game operations manual does.

Nothing to do with honour, just facts.

[binjalin]

8 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

 

 

You can beg my pardon as much as you like, as of yet it is not given. You are a liar and now you continue to squirm on the hook.

 

You said:

 

From your quote:

Pages A62-63 of the NFL League Rulebook

 

Your quoted text was on Face Book. it IS A LIE

There is no such quote in the NFL Rulebook I have given you your own copy. Read and educate yourself if that is not too much to ask. Again:

http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2017-nfl-rulebook/ 

 

You make your case much worse by continuing to be disingenuous. You could have said "Sorry I made a mistake", but that is not in the Trump supporters vocabulary. You lied, I did not, you posted a cheap fake story from Face Book, I did not. Shame on you.

 

And to be clear:

 

You are only saying now that the quote is from the 'Games Operations Handbook' now because you have read that elsewhere. The truth is you never read the first quote in the 'Rule Book' as you said and you still have not read it in the 'games operations manual', go ahead now, defend some of your credibility that has evaporated and quote us the rule from the operations manual and lets see what page it is on and what link to the manual you can give.

 

Liars defend lies with more lies, people of character stand up and say 'sorry I got it wrong'.

 

 

 

You are making yourself look very foolish sir. There are two parts to the NFL rules and this quote was part of them and it is obvious, to everyone but the blind, that you did not know that yet you continue to abuse posters. I have looked at the Newsweek article link have you?  It is clearly there as posted.

 

Do you have any character?  I think not.

[Andaman Al]

Anyway who needs us to argue the point of what VP Pence did when there are far more competent people to do it.

 

 

Hey shouldn't somebody sack this journalist photographer? No damn respect for the veterans or the military.

 

 

 

 

 

[Andaman Al]

3 minutes ago, binjalin said:

 

You are making yourself look very foolish sir. There are two parts to the NFL rules and this quote was part of them and it is obvious, to everyone but the blind, that you did not know that yet you continue to abuse posters. I have looked at the Newsweek article link have you?  It is clearly there as posted.

 

Do you have any character?  I think not.

Plenty of character for both of us thank you. Not looking foolish at all, apart to the foolish. The quote was a cheap fake news story on face book. The rule is NOT in the NFL Rulebook. Simple. If the poster had taken the time to check his fake story before posting it he would have found out, I even posted the NFL Rulebook.

 

Also the quote says the words "may'. there is no rule to say anyone must. A point made quite clear by the NFL statement . So no, I am not abusing posters I am telling it as it is, what he said was untrue, fake, a lie. Or do you class this as an 'alternative fact', already weaving the story now so that the statement belongs in two rulebooks the players should follow. The players follow the NFL Rulebook, clubs and owners follow the "Games Operations Handbook'. It's a bit like saying the statement 'Jesus is the son of God' is in the Quaran. It is in the Bible, both books followed by believers in invisible people but quite different groups, quite different books, all about the same single subject, the same one God,  containing very different information. Next.......

[LannaGuy]

42 minutes ago, mikebike said:

 

 

Nothing to do with honour, just facts.

An owner referring to the NFL rules. I have tried to download the rules but the NFL website has shut it down. No need to reply it is a FACT.

 

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboys/2017/10/09/cowboys-coach-jason-garrett-says-players-raised-fists-national-anthem-face-discipline

[mike324]

2 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

An owner referring to the NFL rules. I have tried to download the rules but the NFL website has shut it down. No need to reply it is a FACT.

 

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/dallas-cowboys/cowboys/2017/10/09/cowboys-coach-jason-garrett-says-players-raised-fists-national-anthem-face-discipline

 

No that is false, its an owner making his own rules for players to follow. Not following NFL rules, again and again you try to spread misinformation. There is no hard rule in the NFL that players "must" stand.

 

If Cowboy owner decides to come up with his own rule, then its within his power to fire the players. It should not be apply to players of other teams where owners have different opinion. Get the Facts straight.

[LannaGuy]

4 minutes ago, mike324 said:

 

No that is false, its an owner making his own rules for players to follow. Not following NFL rules, again and again you try to spread misinformation. There is no hard rule in the NFL that players "must" stand.

 

If Cowboy owner decides to come up with his own rule, then its within his power to fire the players. It should not be apply to players of other teams where owners have different opinion. Get the Facts straight.

Operations manual was drawn up for all teams. Just don't play the anthem is the answer. I don't know what's happened to America these days you have all been gripped by some 'PC Bug' and it's tearing your country apart.

[mike324]

Just now, LannaGuy said:

Operations manual was drawn up for all teams. Just don't play the anthem is the answer. I don't know what's happened to America these days you have all been gripped by some 'PC Bug' and it's tearing your country apart.

You still don't get it do you? Manual never made it a hard rule that one must stand for the anthem. It only says players "should" if not they can face penalties. But its up to the NFL's discretion. I've been repeating this 3-4 times already.

 

Can't defend the FACTS and now calling folks bitten by PC Bug.  Those tearing the country apart are folks like Trump whom even before his presidency has been tweeting lies and false stories. Even after admitting his lies, his supporters find no fault that he is a habitual liar.

[Ron19]

A post contravening forum rules and an answer to it have been removed.

[LannaGuy]

2 minutes ago, mike324 said:

You still don't get it do you? Manual never made it a hard rule that one must stand for the anthem. It only says players "should" if not they can face penalties. But its up to the NFL's discretion. I've been repeating this 3-4 times already.

 

Can't defend the FACTS and now calling folks bitten by PC Bug.  Those tearing the country apart are folks like Trump whom even before his presidency has been tweeting lies and false stories. Even after admitting his lies, his supporters find no fault that he is a habitual liar.

 

2 minutes ago, mike324 said:

You still don't get it do you? Manual never made it a hard rule that one must stand for the anthem. It only says players "should" if not they can face penalties. But its up to the NFL's discretion. I've been repeating this 3-4 times already.

 

Can't defend the FACTS and now calling folks bitten by PC Bug.  Those tearing the country apart are folks like Trump whom even before his presidency has been tweeting lies and false stories. Even after admitting his lies, his supporters find no fault that he is a habitual liar.

should

SHo͝od,SHəd/

verb

 

1. 1.

   used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions.

   "he should have been careful"

    

    

   BTW I am NOT a Trump supporter, far from it, I am pro-choice, pro-marijuana and a British Labour Party supporter BUT I consider politics, everywhere, should be kept out of sports, actors acceptance speeches etc.  Don't tar everyone who is against this 'kneeling' BS as 'Trump supporters'. 

Edited October 10, 2017 by LannaGuy

[Andaman Al]

6 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

 

should

SHo͝od,SHəd/

verb

 

1. 1.

   used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions.

   "he should have been careful"

    

    

   BTW I am NOT a Trump supporter, far from it, I am pro-choice, pro-marijuana and a British Labour Party supporter BUT I consider politics, everywhere, should be kept out of sports, actors acceptance speeches etc.  Don't tar everyone who is against this 'kneeling' BS as 'Trump supporters'. 

"He  'Should' have checked a story before cutting and pasting from face book".

[mike324]

1 minute ago, LannaGuy said:

 

should

SHo͝od,SHəd/

verb

 

1. 1.

   used to indicate obligation, duty, or correctness, typically when criticizing someone's actions.

   "he should have been careful"

 

Yes, they should stand to show respect. But they didn't and the NFL did not want to fine them and supports their action. If team owner decides otherwise now, its in their power to reprimand their own players and can have their own rules as well. End of story.

 

Your point is? You want to be the team owner? go ahead so you can push your opinion and rules on your own player, otherwise it is what it is your own opinion - no need to shove it down peoples throat like what Trump is doing. Stick to the FACTS like you said.

 

[binjalin]

39 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

Plenty of character for both of us thank you. Not looking foolish at all, apart to the foolish. The quote was a cheap fake news story on face book. The rule is NOT in the NFL Rulebook. Simple. If the poster had taken the time to check his fake story before posting it he would have found out, I even posted the NFL Rulebook.

 

Also the quote says the words "may'. there is no rule to say anyone must. A point made quite clear by the NFL statement . So no, I am not abusing posters I am telling it as it is, what he said was untrue, fake, a lie. Or do you class this as an 'alternative fact', already weaving the story now so that the statement belongs in two rulebooks the players should follow. The players follow the NFL Rulebook, clubs and owners follow the "Games Operations Handbook'. It's a bit like saying the statement 'Jesus is the son of God' is in the Quaran. It is in the Bible, both books followed by believers in invisible people but quite different groups, quite different books, all about the same single subject, the same one God,  containing very different information. Next.......

I'm sorry to say your argument is spurious, arrogant and illogical. Why have an SOP if it is not followed?  I am of the view that employees should obey instructions and I further surmise owners are weak and worried about alienating some of their fan base (= $$$). I am amazed that a few very vocal posters seem to support such insurrection just because they hate Trump. I dislike Trump too but I see no connection, other than coincidence, and I am equally against other 'celebrities' using their position to espouse political beliefs. No point in ping-pong either you 'get it' or you do not. Have a nice evening. 

[Thakkar]

9 minutes ago, binjalin said:

I'm sorry to say your argument is spurious, arrogant and illogical. Why have an SOP if it is not followed?  I am of the view that employees should obey instructions and I further surmise owners are weak and worried about alienating some of their fan base (= $$$). I am amazed that a few very vocal posters seem to support such insurrection just because they hate Trump. I dislike Trump too but I see no connection, other than coincidence, and I am equally against other 'celebrities' using their position to espouse political beliefs. No point in ping-pong either you 'get it' or you do not. Have a nice evening. 

 

The protest began long before the Trump Presidency. It really isn’t about Trump at all. I guess that’s what bothered him. So he interjected, by making the protest about something that it isn’t: Respect for symbols.

 

The protest was about justice and equality. Not what Trump’s tweet of the day says it it. Trump has succeeded in making it about him, because now the players and owners are locking arms to say that Trump can’t tell them what to do.

 

Trump is like the dog that pisses all over to mark its territory. Hmm.. maybe he does have a pee pee fetish!

[binjalin]

16 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

 

The protest began long before the Trump Presidency. It really isn’t about Trump at all. I guess that’s what bothered him. So he interjected, by making the protest about something that it isn’t: Respect for symbols.

 

The protest was about justice and equality. Not what Trump’s tweet of the day says it it. Trump has succeeded in making it about him, because now the players and owners are locking arms to say that Trump can’t tell them what to do.

 

Trump is like the dog that pisses all over to mark its territory. Hmm.. maybe he does have a pee pee fetish!

 

I have to agree it was very, very unwise but he's a megalomaniac so everything is about HIM! I still would prefer entertainers (which includes all sports) stick to what they are being paid to do. In their own time I fully support any activity they might seek to highlight and that includes, of course, using their fame but spare us during performances. Don't have the anthem is the obvious solution.

[mikebike]

14 minutes ago, binjalin said:

 

I have to agree it was very, very unwise but he's a megalomaniac so everything is about HIM! I still would prefer entertainers (which includes all sports) stick to what they are being paid to do. In their own time I fully support any activity they might seek to highlight and that includes, of course, using their fame but spare us during performances. Don't have the anthem is the obvious solution.

One more time for those who are unaware:

 

Prior to 2008-09 the players came on the field AFTER the playing of the national anthem. The Department of Defense PAID the NFL to change their Operations Manual to require the players to be on the field to boost their sign-up-to-fight efforts. The whole political controversy is a construct of DoD propaganda and a total misunderstanding of why Kaepernick started taking a knee (hint: it is NOT disrespect to the troops, the flag or the US in general).

[riclag]

15 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

IMHO, kneeling silently during the national anthem is neither disrespecting the flag or the anthem. And the players themselves have specifically said that is not their purpose or intention.

 

But it is and has clearly been stated by the participating players as a public protest over police abuses in the minority communities, and the government's failure, especially during the Trump administration, to do even the slightest thing to address those issues.

 

Instead, the Justice Department under Trump has been reversing Obama Administration policies and efforts aimed at beginning to address those issues, which have been occurring for many years.

 

If you want to talk about misguided, it's the current Administration's abject failure to ensure equal civil rights for ALL Americans that should be making Americans angry, not false flag issues over the flag and a song. The former are real issues of life and death for Americans. The latter is a false and misguided sense of patriotism that ignores what true patriotism is about.

 

And other Admin's have done a better job on civil right's?

[Thakkar]

28 minutes ago, binjalin said:

 

I have to agree it was very, very unwise but he's a megalomaniac so everything is about HIM! I still would prefer entertainers (which includes all sports) stick to what they are being paid to do. In their own time I fully support any activity they might seek to highlight and that includes, of course, using their fame but spare us during performances. Don't have the anthem is the obvious solution.

 

I agree that national anthems do not belong at public events, at least not in America where the Constitution is the law of the land, and everything else is subordinate.

 

As to celebrities speaking out on issues, that is their right; they can do so in a way and at a time and place of their choosing as long as it is within the law. True Americans can criticize their method and content, but not their right to do it.

 

In a country where a celebrity TV host is president, it is a bit rich to tell celebrities to stay out of politics.

[mikebike]

9 minutes ago, riclag said:

And other Admin's have done a better job on civil right's?

Yes. Demonstrably.

[Thakkar]

 

[binjalin]

3 hours ago, mikebike said:

One more time for those who are unaware:

 

Prior to 2008-09 the players came on the field AFTER the playing of the national anthem. The Department of Defense PAID the NFL to change their Operations Manual to require the players to be on the field to boost their sign-up-to-fight efforts. The whole political controversy is a construct of DoD propaganda and a total misunderstanding of why Kaepernick started taking a knee (hint: it is NOT disrespect to the troops, the flag or the US in general).

Understood so let's change it back.

[binjalin]

3 hours ago, Thakkar said:

 

I agree that national anthems do not belong at public events, at least not in America where the Constitution is the law of the land, and everything else is subordinate.

 

As to celebrities speaking out on issues, that is their right; they can do so in a way and at a time and place of their choosing as long as it is within the law. True Americans can criticize their method and content, but not their right to do it.

 

In a country where a celebrity TV host is president, it is a bit rich to tell celebrities to stay out of politics.

The big difference, that you missed, was that he was elected they are not. 

[attrayant]

20 minutes ago, binjalin said:

The big difference, that you missed, was that he was elected they are not. 

 

You needn't be an elected public servant to voice your opinion about politics.  One of our problems today is that enough people don't voice their opinions about what our public servants are doing (or not doing, as in the case of our current oval office occupant).  Nobody, celebrity or otherwise, should "stay out of politics".

[Thakkar]

21 minutes ago, binjalin said:

The big difference, that you missed, was that he was elected they are not. 

So because they are not elected, they have fewer free speech rights? If you’re not a politician, you must stay out of public political pontification? Are you and I committing a faux pas?

[Skywalker69]

TOP REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST JUST HIT MIKE PENCE WITH A KNOCKOUT PUNCH FOR THE AGES – TRUMP IS FURIOUS

 

The moment Mike Pence decided to make himself the President’s hand-puppet and leave that NFL game after players decided to kneel, solely because he was “instructed to,” was the last straw for many Republicans that were still holding on by a thread.

 

Steve Schmidt, a very popular Republican strategist and analyst, called the Vice President’s departure from the game, “Utterly appalling, wasteful, profligate, disgusting behavior from the vice president.”

 

He went on to elaborate on his point by stating, “So he took Air Force Two, full package of Secret Service from Las Vegas to Indianapolis for a stunt, inconvenienced tens of thousands of Colts fans to, again, use the flag and the anthem as a prop.”

 

https://stevenews.net/top-republican-strategist-just-hit-mike-pence-knockout-punch-ages-trump-furious/

[FritsSikkink]

19 hours ago, LannaGuy said:

Deflection and baiting. The rules are CLEAR

 

"respect for the flag and our country"

 

The NFL lacks any leadership on the issue and are afraid of liberal PC willy wagging. STOP POLITICS IN SPORT.

There is a bit more to it:

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/labor-union-files-complaint-against-jerry-jones-over-anthem-threat/ar-AAthm3I?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp 

[Kim1950]

17 hours ago, Thakkar said:

So because they are not elected, they have fewer free speech rights? 

At least, we have elections. Go take a knee for the cause at a Thai soccer Game righteous crusader.

[Thakkar]

42 minutes ago, Kim1950 said:

At least, we have elections. Go take a knee for the cause at a Thai soccer Game righteous crusader.

 

And what pray tell are you crusading for—to muffle the speech of people you disagree with, or to make Thai soccer even more boring by encouraging my involvement?