It's 'farang' Not 'falang'!

[jing jing]

In Isaan where they speak Khmer dialect it's not farang... it's barang.

[gburns57au]

Oh I can't resist. China and Thailand do not share a border.

Of course they dont now.....heavens to betsy...did you think that Chinese influences in Thailand only started 50 -100 years ago....perhaps I should lend you some books about the origins of Thailand...perhaps then you would understand...

[gburns57au]

There are not too many pommies that I have heard say "farung" properly.

Is there anything that pommies say properly?

"my shout"

Shouldnt that be "your round"

Farung.....this from someone who pronounces six as sex.......

Or the gormless race that pronounces six as sex....

I meant them too.....or was it six as sux....damnation to you...you confused me earlier and I got roasted....was thinking about your post and not mine and f***ed it up big time....

Mongrel....in the nicest sense of course

[goldenmile]

falang or farang

the abreviation is still

ATM

[chuchok]

There are not too many pommies that I have heard say "farung" properly.

Is there anything that pommies say properly?

"my shout"

Shouldnt that be "your round"

Farung.....this from someone who pronounces six as sex.......

Or the gormless race that pronounces six as sex....

I meant them too.....or was it six as sux....damnation to you...you confused me earlier and I got roasted....was thinking about your post and not mine and f***ed it up big time....

Mongrel....in the nicest sense of course

I've been called that a few times..

[Boon Mee]

do not[/i] have any /r/ sound in their dialect. I recommend Smalley's 'Linguistic Diversity and National Unity' for the most complete description of dialects and minority languages in Thailand. It really is worth the money and would clear up any misunderstandings.

As for the debate about pronunciation of ก ค ข I do not think we will not get anywhere trying to represent them according to how we perceive them unless we try a different approach.

So for anyone who is interested in phonetics - in a Thai context, all these three letters are pronounced exactly the same when they occur at the end of a word - and this pronunciation is written as 'g' in some transcription systems (Haas for example) and as 'k' in others (AUA i.e. Marwin Brown's for example). Transcription systems primarily for English speakers can have either (the worst ones use both!).

The actual sound of these three letters when in syllable final position is neither a /g/ (because unlike /g/ it has no vocal chord vibration) not a 'k' (because it has no puff of air after it). What happens is, your tongue stops where you would start to make either a /g/ or a /k/ - there is no real equivalent of this in English. Listen to the last (almost inaudible sound) a Thai makes when pronouncing 'frog' and 'frock' in English. If they have not had a lot of exposure to foreigners these words will sound exactly the same, an the final "g" / "ck" will be an 'absence of a sound' - because the tongue stops dead at the palate.

In initial position, ค and ข are pronounced the same in Central Thai. There are two letters for the same sound because this is necessary for correctly representing the tones when using Thai letters. ค is a so called 'low consonant' and ข is a so called 'high consonant'. The sound of them is similar enough to an initial /k/ that it makes some sense to write it like that - the major difference from a /k/ is that in Thai, the puff of air at the end of the sound is more pronounced.

As for ก, the first letter of the Thai alphabet, it has the same sound as a /k/ in for example the word 'sky', but NOT the same as in 'karma' (when karma is pronounced in English). The difference is the absence of a puff of air.

ก is close to initial /g/ as in 'guy', but not entirely the same. The difference is that 'g' in 'guy' is softer, less pressure is applied than with ก in Thai ไก่ .

The IPA based systems write ก as k and ค ข as kh. The 'h' here is to remind of the puff of air, and 'k' is used instead of 'g' to make sure there is no vocal chord tone.

Systems designed for primarily for speakers of English usually choose 'k' for ค ข and 'g' for ก so people will not have to rethink their letter-to-sound correspondence, which can be confusing if you have not learned a foreign sound system before.

Listen up you guys (& gals), the post above is the final objective answer to any questions re 'falang/farang'.

Meadish ain't no slouch in the linguitics department.

[chanchao]

One thing to add on pronouncing Thai words with r-ruea by Westerners:

If you're going to be using a central Thai r-ruea then make it a proper one; if you can't pronounce a proper one and make it an English/American/German/French etc 'r' then for chrissakes use 'L' because you'll sound more correct and be better understood, which is after all the purpose of language.

The silliest thing EVER is some relative newbie speaker of Thai loudly boasting about using R and belittling Western speakers using L, only to use some drawling American rrrr sound... Gives me cramp in my toes I tell ya.

[kayo]

In Isaan where they speak Khmer dialect it's not farang... it's barang.

This is a very good point!

In Khmer the word used to describe what we know as (falang/farang) is indeed Barang.

and somtimes BaLang

Oh BTW:

Wikipedia Farang and you get this

(search for FaLAng and you get redirected to this same page

:

Farang (in Thai: ฝรั่ง), sometimes pronounced falang, is the generic Thai word for a white foreigner. While generally farang is a neutral word, it can be used in a mocking manner or even as an insult depending on context. For instance, the expression "farang ta nam khao" (in Thai: ฝรั่งตาน้ำข้าว, which literally means farang with rice-milk-colored iris) would be considered an insult. Blacks will be occasionally referred to as farang dam (black farang, in Thai: ฝรั่งดำ).

One theory of the word's origin derives it from farangset, the Thai pronunciation of français, the French word for 'French' or 'Frenchman'. France was one of the first European nations to establish cultural ties with Thailand in the 17th century, so to Thais at that time, 'white man' and 'Frenchman' were synonymous.

Others say that in the Ayutthaya period, land was given to the Portuguese merchants to conduct their business at "Baan Farang" (Guava Village).

Another explanation, having to do with the French but in a far more indirect way than the above, derives the word from the Persian word farangi which refers to foreigners. It comes from the word "frank", meaning Franks or French. The reason for this is the fact that the French were the first European nation that helped the Ghajar Kings modernize the Iranian government, in particular with the establishment of customs, in Persian: gomrok.

Long before English, and until around the 1960s, French was the foreign language of choice for educated Iranians. The abundance of French words in the Persian language attests to this fact.

By another account the word comes through Arabic ("Afrandj"), and there are quite a few articles about it. One of the most detailed treatments of the subject is by Rashid al-din Fazl Allâh[1].

Farang is closely related to the Khmer word Barang.

In Tamil, the word that refers to Europeans (most specifically to the British) is parangiar, presumably because Tamil does not have the "F" sound. Many South Asian and Southeast Asian languages, including Malay, also use this word to denote foreigners.

Wiki the Khmer word Barang:

Barang (បារាំង) is a Khmer word meaning French. It is often mispronounced like ba-réng. The correct pronunciation is bâ-râng, but pâ-râng is also acceptable. It is thought to be corruption of the word France but this may be a misconception. The term is obviously related to the Thai term Farang which has a similar meaning. In the Malay language, barang means "thing".

The origin of this word is arguable as there are several possibilities. One is that it came from Arabic (faranj) via Malay traders. Another is that it came straight from the French. Since Khmer does not have a letter that represents the Latin F, it is pronounced with a B sound. As with many Khmer words of foreign origin, n's often change to an ng sound. Such as Aleurmâng (អាឡឺម៉ង់) (German) which comes from the French word Allemand.

In the Khmer language, the term barang has also come to mean a foreigner, particularly one of European ancestry. It is not a demeaning word, but some Khmer speakers might use it in a bad context. The term is becoming more popular now among travelers. It is even used by some expats living in Cambodia themselves.

Khmer is the official language of Cambodia which was once a French protectorate called Cambodge in French. The French had many influences on the Khmer language, such as the pronunciation of Mercedes. Many technical terms used today in Khmer are of French origin. Barang is also used as a suffix in some Khmer words such as môn barang (មាន់បារាំង) which is transliterally French chicken, but refers to a turkey. Another word is kh'teum barang (ខ្ទឹមបារាំង) which is transliterally French allium and means an onion.

"Barangsaes" (បារាំងសែស) is another Khmer term that shows its relation with the word Français, but it is rarely used.

[chuchok]

One thing to add on pronouncing Thai words with r-ruea by Westerners:

If you're going to be using a central Thai r-ruea then make it a proper one; if you can't pronounce a proper one and make it an English/American/German/French etc 'r' then for chrissakes use 'L' because you'll sound more correct and be better understood, which is after all the purpose of language.

The silliest thing EVER is some relative newbie speaker of Thai loudly boasting about using R and belittling Western speakers using L, only to use some drawling American rrrr sound... Gives me cramp in my toes I tell ya.

Wise words indeed.

[SanukJoe]

Lao is spoken in Laos (but with many dialects) and Lao is spoken in Isaan by 19 million people, nearly a third of Thai population. Lao in Isaan is different from Lao in Laos.

Where did you get this information? I disagree.

Is Eessarn a dialect of Laotian or Thai?

You always seem to disagree when I write something, I don't mind. I give you the url where you can find it all: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/lao/LaoLanguage...language_fp.htm

Cheers

Joe

Eessarn as you write it is NOT a dialect, nor from Lao or from Thai, Lao is the language used by 19 million people in Isaan. Some in Isaan use other languages like Suay or Khmer, but the majority speaks Lao, which is different from Lao spoken in the country Laos.

Isaan is not a language, Isaan is the North Eastern province of Thailand, Isaan people live there and they speak Lao.

My kids learn Lao, thai and english, in that order.

Joe

[kiakaha]

I have yet to see an "official standard" for the transliteration of thai consonants and vowels into romanized characters.

[kenk3z]

I think Simon makes a very good point. A Thai person would hope to learn American English in an "educated" dialect.

What would you think of a Thai that walks up to you and says " Yo man, I wants to ax ya'll a question ". Would you think that person has been hanging out with educated people? It is the stereotype associated with the dialect. Very much the same thing happens on Thai TV when they want to make fun of Issarn people - they play a little riff of Khaen music.

Simon wants to learn Thai in an "educated" dialect. I would too.

kenk3z

Edited January 10, 2007 by kenk3z

[phibunmike]

Eessarn as you write it is NOT a dialect, nor from Lao or from Thai, Lao is the language used by 19 million people in Isaan. Some in Isaan use other languages like Suay or Khmer, but the majority speaks Lao, which is different from Lao spoken in the country Laos.

Isaan is not a language, Isaan is the North Eastern province of Thailand, Isaan people live there and they speak Lao.

My kids learn Lao, thai and english, in that order.

Joe

Joe, I have to disagree with you here - unless in your area it is different to mine.

Isaan is what I would call a dialect of Lao (meadish will/has clarified) but Isaan is not Lao. If I use certain Lao words from my Lao dictionary, I am not understood, and my wife then explains "no, that is a Lao word" ("Lao ching" or "Laos Lao", she says). A couple of examples that spring to mind are motorbike and bread, which are completely different (I can't remember the Lao words, but bread sounds more like kao jai or something similar, and really confused my wife when we were ordering breakfast in Pakse).

My wife says she speaks Isaan, and eats Isaan food. She does not say she speaks Lao, and I have to say I agree with her.

Or do we really agree and just phrase it differently ?

Cheers,

Mike

[phibunmike]

Wikipedia...

Oh, and by the way, friends, please do not use Wikipedia as a reference: it is not an authorative source, it is written by you and me

[Chang_paarp]

I think Simon makes a very good point. A Thai person would hope to learn American English in an "educated" dialect.

What would you think of a Thai that walks up to you and says " Yo man, I wants to ax ya'll a question ". Would you think that person has been hanging out with educated people? It is the stereotype associated with the dialect. Very much the same thing happens on Thai TV when they want to make fun of Issarn people - they play a little riff of Khaen music.

Simon wants to learn Thai in an "educated" dialect. I would too.

kenk3z

The language is English, unfortunately the Thais and many other nationalities think the residents of the USA speak English. They speak a series local dialects, not unlike the the Thais with their language. Unfortunately the US residents like to mess with the spelling as well as the pronunciation.

The point above about "educated English" is a good one. Someone learning this has a better chance of being understood in most places that speak English. I have to assume the same is true of most languages that have regional variations.

As an interesting aside, my grandparents were travelling through northern Scotland not long after their marriage. My Scottish grandfather was very put out when my Danish grandmother could communicate with the locals and he could not. It would seem the local dialect in that part of northern Scotland was closer to Danish than English.

[Donz]

falang or farang

the abreviation is still

ATM

No the ATM is another word for Weak Farang/falang

[In the Rai!]

One thing to add on pronouncing Thai words with r-ruea by Westerners:

If you're going to be using a central Thai r-ruea then make it a proper one; if you can't pronounce a proper one and make it an English/American/German/French etc 'r' then for chrissakes use 'L' because you'll sound more correct and be better understood, which is after all the purpose of language.

The silliest thing EVER is some relative newbie speaker of Thai loudly boasting about using R and belittling Western speakers using L, only to use some drawling American rrrr sound... Gives me cramp in my toes I tell ya.

Good point!

At the end of the day, the R ร or l ล in ฝรั่ง farang/falang is the least of most peoples worries. If you can speak Thai well enough to have conversations then Thais will be impressed that you can speak what you can. (they are not going to think that you are uneducated because you did not roll your "r") If you cant have conversations in Thai and you didnt roll your "r" than thats ok because they know that you can't speak Thai.

For those that mentioned that not rolling the "r" ร is highlighting a lack of education is lidiculous (hehehe) A majority of Thais do not roll the "r"ร unless in formal circles. Normal everyday usage it is generally not rolled be it correct or not correct, it is how they speak.(certain areas excluded)

Now for all of those "r" ร rollers continue rolling away...

and for all of those "l" ล users continue slipping in the l ล

[chanchao]

Also, in the north, farang is "bakuay", which nicely side-steps the L issue, but presents other opportunities for mis-pronounciation.

[Neeranam]

I have yet to see an "official standard" for the transliteration of thai consonants and vowels into romanized characters.

http://www.royin.go.th/roman-translate01.html

Useless for foreigner, especially tourists, in my opinion.

Why do travel guides use it?

You get them on the sky train saying "charoen krung road" and nobody understands. If it was written "jarern groong" everyone would know.

Why on earth use "K" for "ก"?

It makes it very difficult for foreigners who don't know it to say place names for example. Kalasin should be "Galaseen".

Try sayin Krunthep(Bangkok), as it is written, I guarantee the Thai will not understand.

I have had a few tourists come to me and say,"do you know where Chatu chak market is?". Thais don't understand. That is because it is "Jatujak".

"จ" should be "J" in all circumstances, as an initial consanant.

Of course it is different as a final.

Another one is "ต" which IMHO, should be "DT".

With names, the most common problem I see for foriegners is the final "ล" which I think should be a "N", not an "L".

In saying all that, it is probably best if you stick to the official one.

Shinawat=Shinawatra

It is stupid though to use Shinawatra, as he is an international figure, when the final consonant is silent in Thai, just leave it out. Shiniwat is better. man I never thought I would ever write Shiniwat is better

ก k k กา = ka

นก = nok

ข ฃ ค ฅ ฆ kh๑ k ขอ = kho

สุข = suk

โค = kho

ยุค = yuk

ฆ้อง = khong

เมฆ = mek

ง ng ng งาม = ngam

สงฆ์ = song

จ ฉ ช ฌ ch๒ t จีน = chin

อำนาจ = amnat

ฉิ่ง = ching

ชิน = chin

คช = khot

เฌอ = choe

ซ ทร (เสียง ซ) ศ ษ ส s t ซา = sa

ก๊าซ = kat

ทราย = sai

ศาล = san

ทศ = thot

รักษา = raksa

กฤษณ์ = krit

สี = si

รส = rot

ญ y n ญาติ = yat

ชาญ = chan

ฎ ฑ (เสียง ด) ด d t ฎีกา = dika

กฎ = kot

บัณฑิต = bandit

ษัฑ = sat

ด้าย = dai

เป็ด = pet

ฏ ต t t ปฏิมา = patima

ปรากฏ = prakot

ตา = ta

จิต = chit

ฐ ฑ ฒ ถ ท ธ th๑ t ฐาน = than

รัฐ = rat

มณฑล = monthon

เฒ่า = thao

วัฒน์ = wat

ถ่าน = than

นาถ = nat

ทอง = thong

บท = bot

ธง = thong

อาวุธ = awut

ณ น n n ประณีต = pranit

ปราณ = pran

น้อย = noi

จน = chon

บ b p ใบ = bai

กาบ = kap

ป p p ไป = pai

บาป = bap

ผ พ ภ ph๑ p ผา = pha

พงศ์ = phong

ลัพธ์ = lap

สำเภา = samphao

ลาภ = lap

ฝ ฟ f p ฝั่ง = fang

ฟ้า = fa

เสิร์ฟ = soep

ม m m ม้าม = mam

ย y ? ยาย = yai

ร r n ร้อน = ron

พร = phon

ล ฬ l n ลาน = lan

ศาล = san

กีฬา = kila

กาฬ = kan

ว w ? วาย = wai

ห ฮ h ? หา = ha

ฮา = ha

[Neeranam]

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/thai/language/

the prevoius link seems not to be working.

[Neeranam]

Eessarn as you write it is NOT a dialect, nor from Lao or from Thai, Lao is the language used by 19 million people in Isaan. Some in Isaan use other languages like Suay or Khmer, but the majority speaks Lao, which is different from Lao spoken in the country Laos.

Isaan is not a language, Isaan is the North Eastern province of Thailand, Isaan people live there and they speak Lao.

My kids learn Lao, thai and english, in that order.

Isarn has about 19 million people - are you saying they all speak Laotian?

Isarnese is a language.

[chanchao]

> You get them on the sky train saying "charoen krung road" and nobody understands.

> If it was written "jarern groong" everyone would know.

"everyone" who speaks English, preferably British English. That's the only niche for which the dreaded extra 'ghost r' trick to lengthen vowel sounds works. ("jareRn")

See?

> ... IMHO, should be ...

It's funny because it really seems there are as many transliteration schemes as there are foreigners writing Thai in whatever their local character set is. Germans and Scandinavians have a field day also as they get to use ü, æ, ø and all those. Knock yourselves out.

Edited January 11, 2007 by chanchao

[Furbie]

Of course the people in Isaan say they speak "Isaan". Would you really expect them to say they speak Lao? Tell someone from Isaan they are ethnically Lao, or they are speaking Lao, and they may well get upset with you. Better yet, tell them large portions of the Thailand belonged to Lao or Cambodia at some point and see the reaction. Face it, Lao are looked down upon, so to speak Lao would be a bad thing - hence, they speak Isaan, though the people of Cambodian heritage will say they speak Khmer, more often than not I have noticed.

I remember taking an Isaan girl up to Lao when I was first in Thailand. Uni educated, bright enough in most ways, good English; she was amazed that the people in Lao speak Isaan and could understand her. Obviously, not a Thammasat graduate.

I have to think that if Standard or Central Thai (which is what I hear Thai's refer to it as) is the official language, taught in schools and on TV, maybe that is the one we should defer to. Granted, if I lived off in a village somewhere I would likely want to speak the local dialect as well so people would understand me. On a trip to Surin a couple of years ago I had nothing but trouble speaking with older Thais who could not speak Central Thai - some spoke "Isaan" and some Khmer - maddening.

Also, I have to agree with an earlier poster - do you really want to speak Thai like a back woods hick, or low class person? Learn to speak the language properly.

I love to hear Westerners using terms like goo and mung in everyday conversation. While I am sure there are some Westerners that have so mastered the language(s) they can do this at the appropriate time, I dare to say the numbers are few. You are advertising that you learned the language in a bar. If that is who you are, fine; but don't encourage others to do the same.

[chuchok]

Also, I have to agree with an earlier poster - do you really want to speak Thai like a back woods hick, or low class person? Learn to speak the language properly.

Who are you calling a back woods hick?The many millions of people of Thailand that don't speak "central Thai"? Or the people that just want to fit in and be easily understood.

To me, it's a bit like insisting that a Chinese student in the USA must speak "General American" and God forbid if they speak with any type of noticeable regional influences.....

[Furbie]

I think Simon makes a very good point. A Thai person would hope to learn American English in an "educated" dialect.

What would you think of a Thai that walks up to you and says " Yo man, I wants to ax ya'll a question ". Would you think that person has been hanging out with educated people? It is the stereotype associated with the dialect. Very much the same thing happens on Thai TV when they want to make fun of Issarn people - they play a little riff of Khaen music.

Simon wants to learn Thai in an "educated" dialect. I would too.

kenk3z

The language is English, unfortunately the Thais and many other nationalities think the residents of the USA speak English. They speak a series local dialects, not unlike the the Thais with their language. Unfortunately the US residents like to mess with the spelling as well as the pronunciation.

The point above about "educated English" is a good one. Someone learning this has a better chance of being understood in most places that speak English. I have to assume the same is true of most languages that have regional variations.

As an interesting aside, my grandparents were travelling through northern Scotland not long after their marriage. My Scottish grandfather was very put out when my Danish grandmother could communicate with the locals and he could not. It would seem the local dialect in that part of northern Scotland was closer to Danish than English.

Ahhh, my favorite argument to rebut: From word origins, A (very) brief history of the English language: "American English is closer to the English of Shakespeare than modern British English is" To you Brits I say, quite screwing with the mother tounge.

American English

Also significant beginning around 1600 AD was the English colonization of North America and the subsequent creation of a distinct American dialect. Some pronunciations and usages "froze" when they reached the American shore. In certain respects, American English is closer to the English of Shakespeare than modern British English is. Some "Americanisms" that the British decry are actually originally British expressions that were preserved in the colonies while lost at home (e.g., fall as a synonym for autumn, trash for rubbish, frame-up which was reintroduced to Britain through Hollywood gangster movies, and loan as a verb instead of lend).

[Neeranam]

I love to hear Westerners using terms like goo and mung in everyday conversation.

Where exactly do you hear them? You're speaking <deleted>.

[Furbie]

Also, I have to agree with an earlier poster - do you really want to speak Thai like a back woods hick, or low class person? Learn to speak the language properly.

Who are you calling a back woods hick?The many millions of people of Thailand that don't speak "central Thai"? Or the people that just want to fit in and be easily understood.

To me, it's a bit like insisting that a Chinese student in the USA must speak "General American" and God forbid if they speak with any type of noticeable regional influences.....

Yes, I am referring to the baan nook people as hicks. Forgive me for stating the obvious. It does not make them bad people, but it does make them hicks. Have some fun, ask people in Thai if they are baan nook. If they are not from Bangkok, they are hicks and looked down upon. Thais are sensitive to where they came from in the country.

If you do not want to be looked down upon when speaking Thai (outside the village), don't speak like a hick. I have no problem with being understood and learing the local dialects - just don't try to pass it off as the language Westerners should learn when moving to Thailand.

If I Chinese person traveled around the US speaking like a Southerner, people would look at them very strangely - but that is more about an accent, not a whole other dialect.

[chuchok]

Also, I have to agree with an earlier poster - do you really want to speak Thai like a back woods hick, or low class person? Learn to speak the language properly.

Who are you calling a back woods hick?The many millions of people of Thailand that don't speak "central Thai"? Or the people that just want to fit in and be easily understood.

To me, it's a bit like insisting that a Chinese student in the USA must speak "General American" and God forbid if they speak with any type of noticeable regional influences.....

Yes, I am referring to the baan nook people as hicks. Forgive me for stating the obvious. It does not make them bad people, but it does make them hicks. Have some fun, ask people in Thai if they are baan nook. If they are not from Bangkok, they are hicks and looked down upon. Thais are sensitive to where they came from in the country.

If you do not want to be looked down upon when speaking Thai (outside the village), don't speak like a hick. I have no problem with being understood and learing the local dialects - just don't try to pass it off as the language Westerners should learn when moving to Thailand.

If I Chinese person traveled around the US speaking like a Southerner, people would look at them very strangely - but that is more about an accent, not a whole other dialect.

I met a chinese person with a southern accent.Raised in Charston.Amazing world we live in eh.

In my experience, many Northern Thais look down on the rest of the country.Just goes to show.....

[Furbie]

I love to hear Westerners using terms like goo and mung in everyday conversation.

Where exactly do you hear them? You're speaking <deleted>.

Why, because you have never heard a Westerner say it? Granted, we are not talking about business settings here. I can think of two recent occassions right now: One, some ass speaking with his wife/GF whatever on a line at Dreamworld, every other word out of his mouth was goo and mung. Two, last week at Irish X-change, table next to me, some guy sitting with two, shall we say working ladies or a very reasonable copy of two working ladies, all three of them. The Dreamworld one drew a good deal of stares from the Thais on the line.

[Neeranam]

I actually use 'goo' when I'm talking about 'self' in a negative way.