Healthcare on a Shoestring for the Elderly who have no insurance

[gamini]

On 18/10/2017 at 11:51 PM, al007 said:

You are correct I have only been here ten years, not a long time

 

I have in that time taught my wife to speak good english

 

Yes my knowledge of thai is limited but I always have my wife with me

 

 

I do not say I know more than others, just I have had unfortunately too much experience of hospitals in the last eighteen months

 

Sir tell us a little about your experience with hospitals here, so we can understand where you come from, have you spent much time in hospital here, also are you like me with no insurance

 

I am looking for friends with more hands on experience than I have, maybe you can help

 

 

 

You are maybe correct Chulalongkorn in Bangkok has some weaknesses and waiting times are sometimes slow, however I believe it is the number one Teaching Hospital here in Thailand, also it is exceedingly well priced and a fraction of the cost of say the Bumrungrad, my colorectal surgeon also operates there, he assures me the equipment at Chula is superior, the difference is cost and rather substantial

 

It is one of the very best equipped hospitals so again in my humble opinion I believe, also the number one cancer hospital in Thailand, and currently building a billion bhatt new cancer facility, with particle radiation

 

I know the Queen Mother who is not in good health is a regular patient there, so some people in high places have equal faith in it  as do I , why would she go anywhere other than the very best

 

Thank you for your kind comments, I look forward to your observations

I have been in thailand 30 years. I am 86 and need a lot of medical care. So does my wife. In and out of hospitals all the time. I have no insurance.I have limited savings. All hospitals have good and bad doctors. My medical problems started 6 years ago and i have worked hard to find the best doctors at the best prices. First i try to make friends with the doctor. I tell him frankly about my financial status. I have lots of close Thai friends who help reccomend good doctors. I used to go to Bumrungrad but they are now too expensive. I see some of their doctors at government hospitals for 1/10 the cost. I buy all my medicine wholesale rom the Chinesees pharmacy opp Sri Raj. They post it to me. If you have a Thai wife then use government hospitals epecially Sriraj, but find out from friends which doctors are best there. The best doctor I have ever experienced was at a gov. hospital.

I go to the follopwing different hospitals for the best and cheapest teatment even if it means travelling long distance

orthopaedic - army hospital

serious major medical Sri Raj. Also skin cancer

Minor medical with hospital  stay small private hospital

Heart doctor and treatment Pacharat Hospital Petchburi

Urology, and other medical problems of non serious nature government hospital

Eye problem Chula

heart operation. Fly to Chiangmai Siripat Hospital.

 

I would not pay too much attention to some of the posters advice on this forum. The big mistake they make is to judge a hospital by a single doctor. They dont bother to find the best doctor. If you go to any hospital especially private and ask to see a doctor you will probably get the worst one.

Hope this [post was of help

[al007]

12 minutes ago, gamini said:

I have been in thailand 30 years. I am 86 and need a lot of medical care. So does my wife. In and out of hospitals all the time. I have no insurance.I have limited savings. All hospitals have good and bad doctors. My medical problems started 6 years ago and i have worked hard to find the best doctors at the best prices. First i try to make friends with the doctor. I tell him frankly about my financial status. I have lots of close Thai friends who help reccomend good doctors. I used to go to Bumrungrad but they are now too expensive. I see some of their doctors at government hospitals for 1/10 the cost. I buy all my medicine wholesale rom the Chinesees pharmacy opp Sri Raj. They post it to me. If you have a Thai wife then use government hospitals epecially Sriraj, but find out from friends which doctors are best there. The best doctor I have ever experienced was at a gov. hospital.

I go to the follopwing different hospitals for the best and cheapest teatment even if it means travelling long distance

orthopaedic - army hospital

serious major medical Sri Raj. Also skin cancer

Minor medical with hospital  stay small private hospital

Heart doctor and treatment Pacharat Hospital Petchburi

Urology, and other medical problems of non serious nature government hospital

Eye problem Chula

heart operation. Fly to Chiangmai Siripat Hospital.

 

I would not pay too much attention to some of the posters advice on this forum. The big mistake they make is to judge a hospital by a single doctor. They dont bother to find the best doctor. If you go to any hospital especially private and ask to see a doctor you will probably get the worst one.

Hope this [post was of help

 

 

Nice post Sir, or maybe I should address you as Young Man !! well 86 yrs young !

 

You are doing exceedingly well, and long may it continue for both you and your wife

 

You share and give a lot of valuable information, I am too much an open book but do it so as to pass on information to others

 

The value of TVF so I believe is directly related to the quality of its members, and Sheryl is probably TVF greatest asset

 

You  Sir, Sheryl, myself and the brighter ones, say very strongly its about the quality of the specific Doctor, absolute number one priority

 

I live KhonKaen, but my colorectal surgeon is in Bangkok, like you I follow the man, many say why not KhonKaen hospital!!

 

You must have many wonderful stories to tell have you started your book yet !!

[AboutThaim]

4 hours ago, al007 said:

 

This is an exceedingly valid and good point

 

One of the greatest causes of death of the elderly in the UK is slipping and falling

 

My closest and dearest friend slipped one night and broke his leg, he spent two months in hospital before dying he was 81, his cause of death was not recorded as an accident or broken leg

 

At very much the same time my mother, 91, whilst in a top class private hospital, near London went to the bathroom, at night and slipped also breaking her leg, and died in the same hospital within the next three months, her cause of death was not put down to the broken leg or accident

 

Over the last few months there have been a few on TV who have fallen at night

 

Accident insurance even for the elderly is sensibly priced, and for those without medical insurance, at least this risk would be removed

 

It is a must have,  if of course you are not too old

 

We stayed in a small hotel recently and the bathroom floor was so dangerous, polished tiles with plenty of water and soap, do not think the hotel will have liability insurance this is Thailand and you make your own luck

 

However catch 22 yet again, I just contacted and checked all those on Sheryls list above, and most cease cover at 65 and none will give cover at my age 72, the premiums below 65 are very reasonable

 

Anyone any ideas for us oldies

 

Thanks for doing that al007.  So back to square one.  At 71 I can still find reasonably priced travel insurance but it usually has to be taken out in my home country.  There is a ripoff extra charge for extending cover while here I found earlier this year.

[Sheryl]

12 hours ago, NancyL said:

Often once someone reaches a certain age, like age 75, it can be impossible to purchase a new health insurance policy (although some companies will continue to cover current clients once they reach age 75, albeit at higher premium rates), however it is possible to purchase accident insurance up to age 100.

 

 

Actually there are a number of insurers who will issue full health insurance policies to people 75 and older.

 - Cigna Global up to age 100

- Globality Health  99 years

- AXA PPP 80 years

-AXA NOW Health 80 years

 

 

Premiums are of course higher at those ages.

 

I know much less about accident insurance than overall health insurance as it is not something I have ever researched, if you could list some accident insurance policies that will enroll older people it would be helpful.

 

 

[hellohello]

Thanks Al, for your post.  

Thai visa has be such a great resource for me.

 

Thanks to Sheryl she helped me navigate a way to my home country for a year of cancer treatments,  Luckily for me, my country picked up the tab.

 

Im happy to be in remission and am able to return to my adopted home, Thailand.  

 

And now Thanks to Al and Sheryl , in helping me find a good local oncologist to monitor me.     Good Luck Al on your surgery, and please know Im here to help answer any of your questions.  :)

 

 

[NancyL]

9 hours ago, Sheryl said:

 

Actually there are a number of insurers who will issue full health insurance policies to people 75 and older.

 - Cigna Global up to age 100

- Globality Health  99 years

- AXA PPP 80 years

-AXA NOW Health 80 years

 

 

Premiums are of course higher at those ages.

 

I know much less about accident insurance than overall health insurance as it is not something I have ever researched, if you could list some accident insurance policies that will enroll older people it would be helpful.

 

 

Bangkok Insurance offers an accident insurance policy that covers older people.  I know you're not a fan of accident insurance policies sold by the local banks because they have a low maximum payout, but they're inexpensive, easy to buy and recognized by local hospitals. 

 

Here in Chiang Mai, the Kad Suan Kaew branch of Bangkok Bank is popular with older expats and they've taken the initiative to contact Bangkok Insurance and offer a senior accident insurance policy that's better than the standard "PA Senior 1st" policy promoted on the Bangkok Bank website.  The policy sold at Bangkok Bank Kad Suan Kaew, from Bangkok Insurance, is about 7000 baht per year and has an upper payout of 200,000 baht per incident with no deductible.  I know numerous people who have used it, presenting the card upon check-in at many private hospitals here in Chiang Mai and never seeing a bill.

 

Hubby and I have comprehensive medical insurance through Health Care International, the group plan offered by CM Expats Club.  It has a USD 2000 deductible per event, so our plan is to use the Bangkok Insurance accident insurance to pay the deductible in case of an accident then the HCI will kick in if the accident is truly serious.

 

In most of the LCN cases I've seen, 200,000 baht would have gone a long way or paid the bill entirely for repair of the fractures the elderly have.  Plus, the accident insurance policy has a provision for 30 days of rehab (1500 baht/day) at a place like McKean.  That's more than enough to cover the cost of McKean.

[al007]

Travel and Accident insurance

 

I have a bank account with Lloyds Bank international Isle of Man, it is offshore but closely linked to the UK, it has a couple of benefits free international Transfers and free travel insurance upto the age of 75, the account is an International premier Account

 

My wife is joint on this account so even when I am over 75 she will still have cover

 

My registered address with them is KhonKaen, the policy is underwritten by AXA

 

Interestingly it also covers me and my wife for travel in Thailand, so long as I have pre-booked hotels which I usually do

 

It is not an easy account to get, but it might just help some of the older people around

 

[al007]

16 minutes ago, NancyL said:

Health Care International, the group plan offered by CM Expats Club. 

 

NancyL, you have stated something here rather interesting, mentioning a G R O U P  Plan, generally these are more competitive as the risk is also less for the insurer as the risk is more spread

 

It might be a way in for older people, join the C M Expat Club and become eligible for a group plan on medical, often the restrictions on Group plans are not as bad

 

Does anyone else know of any other Group plans

 

Your accident insurance with the Kad Suan Kaew branch of Bangkok Bank sounds very good deal to me, I will specifically ask my Bangkok Bank branch here in KhonKaen about this specific plan from Kad Suan Kaew branch, I also have a contact high up in BKK Bank  at head office and I will ask her about this specific product

[NancyL]

2 minutes ago, al007 said:

 

NancyL, you have stated something here rather interesting, mentioning a G R O U P  Plan, generally these are more competitive as the risk is also less for the insurer as the risk is more spread

 

It might be a way in for older people, join the C M Expat Club and become eligible for a group plan on medical, often the restrictions on Group plans are not as bad

 

Does anyone else know of any other Group plans

 

Your accident insurance with the Kad Suan Kaew branch of Bangkok Bank sounds very good deal to me, I will specifically ask my Bangkok Bank branch here in KhonKaen about this specific plan from Kad Suan Kaew branch, I also have a contact high up in BKK Bank  at head office and I will ask her about this specific product

The CEC group plan grants a 25% discount on the standard rates for Health Care International insurance, so yes, it is a substantial savings, but the policies have the same "restrictions" as regular HCI policies when it comes to things like not covering pre-existing conditions, etc.  

 

The Pattaya City Expats Club also has a similar arrangement with a local insurance agent for a well-recognized health insurance plan.

 

You may want to ask your local Bangkok Bank branch to call the Kad Suan Kaew branch to get details about the Bangkok Insurance plan.  Sadly, Bangkok Insurance doesn't have an English language website.

 

 

[mommysboy]

Good luck Al. I'm in your corner.  I'll be using Gov hospitals too when I need to.

[faraday]

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/BuildYourWealth/Bancassurance/NonLifeInsurance/Pages/NewPA1st.aspx

[NancyL]

5 minutes ago, faraday said:

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/BuildYourWealth/Bancassurance/NonLifeInsurance/Pages/NewPA1st.aspx

Nope, this isn't the plan the Bangkok Bank Kad Suan Kaew branch is offering to older customers.  They have a better plan they've sourced from Bangkok Insurance.  It's a bit more expensive, but has a much higher upper payout.  As I said in a previous post, Bangkok Insurance's website is only in Thai.

[al007]

20 minutes ago, NancyL said:

Nope, this isn't the plan the Bangkok Bank Kad Suan Kaew branch is offering to older customers.  They have a better plan they've sourced from Bangkok Insurance.  It's a bit more expensive, but has a much higher upper payout.  As I said in a previous post, Bangkok Insurance's website is only in Thai.

 

Nancy's deal sound very good, at 7000 for cover of 200,000, if the overal cover a lot lower, some of us would continue to self insure, and the 7000 bhatt very ok, 200,000 if used sensibly can go a long way, still do not let the ambulance take you to Bumrungrad, go to Chula where for the same money you can stay longer

 

I am going to buy it and I always evaluate carefully before spending, and also believe in self insuring in many cases, slipping and falling alone for us older ones has big risks attached, stairs in Thailand are all too steep and bad handrails, a mini bus in Bangkok going flat out the wrong way under and expressway nearly got me one day!!

 

Unlike some I could pay the 200,000 but this is a risk I will happily pass to others to pay

 

I like low cost insurance with potential big payout and this falls into that category

 

Interesting my travel insurance I referred ti in post 37 covers me for some accidents but not when at home or locally, I still like this at 7000, however I only buy it for myself not my wife as well she has 30bhatt scheme

Edited October 21, 2017 by al007

[gamini]

On 20/10/2017 at 4:59 PM, al007 said:

 

 

Nice post Sir, or maybe I should address you as Young Man !! well 86 yrs young !

 

You are doing exceedingly well, and long may it continue for both you and your wife

 

You share and give a lot of valuable information, I am too much an open book but do it so as to pass on information to others

 

The value of TVF so I believe is directly related to the quality of its members, and Sheryl is probably TVF greatest asset

 

You  Sir, Sheryl, myself and the brighter ones, say very strongly its about the quality of the specific Doctor, absolute number one priority

 

I live KhonKaen, but my colorectal surgeon is in Bangkok, like you I follow the man, many say why not KhonKaen hospital!!

 

You must have many wonderful stories to tell have you started your book yet !!

Yes I have written three books. Ecstasy of the Deep is now free on Google. (Quite a bit about Thailand). A charmed life in Ceylon and my last book Freeediving to fame and Fortune.

[al007]

4 minutes ago, gamini said:

Yes I have written three books. Ecstasy of the Deep is now free on Google. (Quite a bit about Thailand). A charmed life in Ceylon and my last book Freeediving to fame and Fortune.

Let me get through the next ten days, currently I am trying to stay calm,  and I will be back in Touch, I see you are from HuaHin, it has fond memories for me and is where I also met my wife

 

I have started my book but maybe while in hospital I can do more

 

I very much enjoy your observations, stay well

[simon43]

 It has a USD 2000 deductible per event, so our plan is to use the Bangkok Insurance accident insurance to pay the deductible in case of an accident 

 

I also have that plan from HCI (with the $2,000 deductible).  Do I understand your comment correctly that if you have an accident, then you propose to claim from Bangkok Insurance to cover the deductible for treatment under HCI?

 

I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure that would 'fly'. Bangkok Insurance pays for accident costs, not deductibles.  Is a deductible an accident cost?

 

I'd be grateful if you could clarify this.  I hope you're correct, because I could then also take out this policy with Bangkok Insurance.

[al007]

39 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

I also have that plan from HCI (with the $2,000 deductible).  Do I understand your comment correctly that if you have an accident, then you propose to claim from Bangkok Insurance to cover the deductible for treatment under HCI?

 

I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure that would 'fly'. Bangkok Insurance pays for accident costs, not deductibles.  Is a deductible an accident cost?

 

I'd be grateful if you could clarify this.  I hope you're correct, because I could then also take out this policy with Bangkok Insurance.

 

I have some experience of health insurance I used to sell to expats from Guildford Surrey, together with financial advice and pensions

 

My observations are that if it is an accident then the accident insurance should cut in

 

The possible problem is when there are two policies the risk gets shared so whether the accident insurance could be used to cover the $2000 excess I would need to talk to a loss adjuster

 

However at worst if only $2000 not covered then surely not a big deal, I am aware there are those here who may not be able to find that $2000 but in all honesty they are very big fools and irresponsible not to be in their own home countries

[cheeryble]

2 hours ago, simon43 said:

 

 

 

I also have that plan from HCI (with the $2,000 deductible).  Do I understand your comment correctly that if you have an accident, then you propose to claim from Bangkok Insurance to cover the deductible for treatment under HCI?

 

I'm no lawyer, but I'm not sure that would 'fly'. Bangkok Insurance pays for accident costs, not deductibles.  Is a deductible an accident cost?

 

I'd be grateful if you could clarify this.  I hope you're correct, because I could then also take out this policy with Bangkok Insurance.

Hmmm sounds like a three pipe problem

it sounds a bit like double indemnity but on reflection it’s not.....either in the case of an under $2000 total bill or an over $2000 total bill.

but suppose a fuss could be made of it.......but again does either company need to know the other ones paying?

[Sheryl]

For it to qualify as your deductible payment, (1) the company with the deductible would have to authorize it first, same as they would if they were paying; (2) you'd need a receipt showing you personally paid the cost.

 

I have looked into this deductible issue myself as when switching from one insurer to another I had a 1 year overlap. What I found was that no, cannot count costs paid by one insurer towards the deductible of another insurer.

[NancyL]

6 hours ago, Sheryl said:

For it to qualify as your deductible payment, (1) the company with the deductible would have to authorize it first, same as they would if they were paying; (2) you'd need a receipt showing you personally paid the cost.

 

I have looked into this deductible issue myself as when switching from one insurer to another I had a 1 year overlap. What I found was that no, cannot count costs paid by one insurer towards the deductible of another insurer.

Really?  I must talk with the insurance agent representing the HCI insurance plan for CEC because he encourages people to buy accident insurance to cover the deductible.  

[cheeryble]

22 hours ago, gamini said:

Yes I have written three books. Ecstasy of the Deep is now free on Google. (Quite a bit about Thailand). A charmed life in Ceylon and my last book Freeediving to fame and Fortune.

I’ve sent you a Private Message Gamini :-)

[al007]

2 hours ago, NancyL said:

Really?  I must talk with the insurance agent representing the HCI insurance plan for CEC because he encourages people to buy accident insurance to cover the deductible.  

Good conversation to have, of course cynical me says but he does earn commission on both

 

if what you think and would like to happen, it is possible you might be wasting your accident insurance

 

Nancy try and get him to put it in writing

 

Personally and only me, I have yet to find an honest insurance agent or financial adviser here in Thailand, or in Asia and still difficult to find in the UK

 

It is only 18 mths ago I was offered insurance to cover my prostate operation, I said it is preexisting and must be declared agent said just tell nobody, I am not against a little bit of fraud but not if it is guaranteed you will be found out, of course the agent gets commission regardless

 

The Uk is meant to be relatively honest , look at the three million plus complaints in UK in 6 mths, nearly 20,000 a day including saturdays and sundays

 

http://www.internationalinvestment.net/regulation/advice-issues-drop-3-32m-financial-complaints-made-just-six-months-fca/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Daily Auto - Manual subject line&utm_campaignid=2498&utm_cmdid=70131

 

So pretty little chance of honest advice in this unregulated market

Edited October 23, 2017 by al007

[JLCrab]

Well I am sorry for anyone's unfortunate current circumstances but, as long as people are writing or have written books, it would be nice for some to be able to read how not to end up elderly in Thailand without insurance and needing healthcare on a shoestring.

[tonray]

14 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Well I am sorry for anyone's unfortunate current circumstances but, as long as people are writing or have written books, it would be nice for some to be able to read how not to end up elderly in Thailand without insurance and needing healthcare on a shoestring.

I think part of the problem comes from expats originating in countries with national healthcare systems. I know many British expats in their 40s now and not one of them has any health coverage here. The reasoning is that they can fly home and receive care as needed. Fast forward 20 years and still without a policy but the dynamic has changed and more difficult to get in now. 

[JLCrab]

... and some of those describe themselves as 'self-insured' and remind you that they are way ahead of the game for not having gotten in.

[cheeryble]

6 hours ago, tonray said:

I think part of the problem comes from expats originating in countries with national healthcare systems. I know many British expats in their 40s now and not one of them has any health coverage here. The reasoning is that they can fly home and receive care as needed. Fast forward 20 years and still without a policy but the dynamic has changed and more difficult to get in now. 

You're bang on Tonray.

I remember looking at health coverage when I first moved here about 14 years ago. Part of the equation was that many or most  conditions aren't emergencies and one would have time to get back to the UK if it was worth saving the money. As i thought the coverage at if i remember right about 70,000pa and increasing with age was avoidable I didn't sign up and sure enough things are apparently changing back home......no turning up for treatment......though i consider this grossly unfair as one pays into the system in one's healthy yeas and expects to be able to be paid back in the later years. It's doubly unfair as a very long notice period at least should have been given so people abroad perhaps less able to pay for treatment here than me could make different arrangements and not get stuck.

 

However JLCrab.....I have genuine reasons which Ive listed before why I prefer not to insure and think that statistically it's a bad call if one can take a run of bad hits oneself. My thinking is I'll probably be able to cope with any bills and if I get particularly unlucky I'll have to tighten my belt and adjust to less funds. I don't think I'm "ahead of the game", just that I have made a choice which just possibly might have been different if access to the NHS....to which I should be perfectly entitled especially bearing in mind the private costs Ive paid here and saved the NHS....hadn't been changed.

 

 

[JLCrab]

For most people health insurance is a bad deal unless you have some kind of extreme medical event. It's that just about everyone who experiences an extreme medical event never expected to experience an extreme medical event.

 

... and whether you think you are ahead of the game or not, plenty of posts on the Insurance Forum by the self-insured contingent say just that.

 

When I first moved to Thailand my family in US of A was not happy about it but one thing in particular changed their mind: I had access to good individual policy health insurance at reasonable cost which was then unavailable to me in US. I signed up within months of moving here.

 

Now I am at an age and maybe with some conditions that did not exist back then that I likely could not get the same policy. Up to you.

Edited October 24, 2017 by JLCrab

[nausea]

This thread's title should be changed from "Healthcare on a Shoestring" to "Healthcare on a Million Baht".

[simon43]

 It's that just about everyone who experiences an extreme medical event never expected to experience an extreme medical event.

this...

 

Approximately 15% of my monthly salary is used solely to pay for my medical insurance policy premium. 

 

I have no existing pre-conditions, am fit and healthy, and have no reason to think that I will have an extreme medical event.

 

Nevertheless, I consider it money well-spent, even if I never have to make a claim.

[al007]

11 minutes ago, simon43 said:

 

 

this...

 

Approximately 15% of my monthly salary is used solely to pay for my medical insurance policy premium. 

 

I have no existing pre-conditions, am fit and healthy, and have no reason to think that I will have an extreme medical event.

 

Nevertheless, I consider it money well-spent, even if I never have to make a claim.

 

I started this thread and used on a shoe string because if like me you are self insured, you have to watch every penny you might spend

 

yes someone said healthcare on a million but that might not be enough, when you are down to your last million might be time to go home while you still can

 

The comment Simon 43 makes is very valid until you get older have a couple of big claims and you are priced out of being able to afford

 

If you are say 50 and fit put 20,000 a month into a fund and keep building it, soon you will have independent safety, away from insurance companies, whom generally I do not trust, when I used to sell it I saw too many things I thought were dishonourable from insurers

 

I am not saying or suggesting do not have insurance, what I am saying do not think it covers everything and think about the alternatives

 

Also coupled with a financial plan think about when you might need to return to your home country, what is the financial cut off point personally maybe when down to  maybe 2 million left, I also spend around 100,000 pct, and still think I live on the edge, and a shoestring !!

 

My personal objective is to have more reserves at the end of each year than I started with, and so far despite some quite large medical bills I have achieved this