Thai road carnage: A MILLION injuries and 24,000 deaths per year, official admits

[4MyEgo]

9 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Joking right?

Where I used to live, they had a helmet stop every morning that raked in a reasonable amount, as there were always some that considered themselves to be invulnerable. However, some knew about the checkpoint and put a helmet on before the checkpoint and took it off after.

 

However, if I'm honest I support it being a choice. If someone considers they don't need to wear a helmet and die, that's on them. I always wore one and it saved my live after my accident, as was smashed, but my head did not get a scratch, but I'm a believer in "it's my life, my choice", same as with drugs or euthanasia.

The only proviso should be that no one gets insurance or free health care if one does survive without a helmet.

Aren't there some states in the US that don't require helmets?

 

Don;t know about the laws in the states, but its mandatory in Australia and if you are seen without one they are all over you within seconds, big fine, and points on licence, bike cannot be moved unless helmet is on, do it and it starts all over again.

 

I used to ride without a helmet prior to the helmet rule coming in, back in the 80's I think, and would enjoy the cool breeze, as opposed to the restriction of the helmet caging my head in, but I don;t think it should be a choice, i.e. who would want to clean up the road carnage when you come off, and hospitals not treating you would just be inhuman which wouldn't happen.

[gk10002000]

take a look at the world statistics.  there is a fine page on wiki.  USA 34,000 deaths.  China and India huge numbers.  Africa well up there in several countries both by absolute numbers and percentages of populace

[gk10002000]

50 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Don;t know about the laws in the states, but its mandatory in Australia and if you are seen without one they are all over you within seconds, big fine, and points on licence, bike cannot be moved unless helmet is on, do it and it starts all over again.

 

I used to ride without a helmet prior to the helmet rule coming in, back in the 80's I think, and would enjoy the cool breeze, as opposed to the restriction of the helmet caging my head in, but I don;t think it should be a choice, i.e. who would want to clean up the road carnage when you come off, and hospitals not treating you would just be inhuman which wouldn't happen.

In the states, believe it or not, several states do NOT require helmets.  I personally don't mind.  If they want to act foolishly, so be it.  But you better damn well not charge me anything extra on my insurance for taking care of them when they crash.

[Artisi]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

1) It would have to start from where the new recruits enter the force for learning

 

2) All current police wouldn't be getting promotions or pay rises unless a target was reached from traffic fines, ensuring that motorists start to comply

 

3) Any cops falling short of the mark would be put behind a desk for admin work and demoted in pay 

 

4) Start dismissing corrupt cops

 

I know I am dreaming, but you did ask, it really is simple, but they would have to turn their system upside down, perhaps send some of their top brass to Sydney to show them how its down and that would open their slant eyes, i.e. you are literally in fear to start your car, i.e. sheeeet have I got my seat belt on, blinkers working, keep to speed limit because they cops are extended by way of fixed speed camera's, mobile speed camera's unmarked parked vehicles with speed camera's, police vehicles with speed detectors, red light camera's and the good old hand held radar speed detectors, random breath testing vehicles, etc, etc, etc, and the fines are heavy, with loss of points system, 3 years to replace lost points, automatic loss of licence if you travel over 45km, and then there is jail if you drive while disqualified and hefty fine.

Problem solved, let's get on with the next one - maybe child abuse, should be just as easy ?

[impulse]

14 hours ago, Artisi said:

What you are looking for is me, me, me and me first. 

 

And the main (only?) difference between Thai's and the folks back home are the cops who let them get away with it here in LOS.

 

You can put it down to cultural differences, but I put it down to enforcement.  As evidence, head off to BKK and watch the foreigners drive.  They get just as bad as the locals once they figure out they can get away with it.  Even worse really, because they don't have decades of experience driving defensively like the locals do.

 

[NanLaew]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Actually, on main roads Thai roads are very safe for m'cyclists as they have a dedicated m'bike lane, unlike western countries I've driven in.

I drove many hundreds of miles on a m'bike without injury, except when an idiot wasn't looking and drove into me when I was stationary. As in all things, life is a gamble.

I always felt more nervous driving a car than on the m'bike, given the maniacs habit of overtaking in my lane, and the propensity of m'bike riders to enter the road without looking.

The greatest consistent danger riding a m'bike here is the sand on the roads, which are never cleaned of such. I always approached corners with caution.

 

As for driving in the fanatically over regulated country I come from, I was almost killed twice in half an hour by idiots.

 

When someone starts their response to any particular post with the word "Actually...", they have already indicated that the following verbiage will probably be a repetitious, long-winded, contrary opinion to the particular post they are responding to. The response is usually firmly couched in a rather pompous "been there, done that, got the t-shirt" attitude and the flawed sense of ones own self-importance and empirical knowledge. Their Thainess.

 

Lacking the ability to offer anything substantial, factual or otherwise significant in response when they feel challenged, they frequently espouse that those with a contrary opinion may be either a 'flaming' keyboard warrior or simply lacking in knowledge or experience.

 

More often than not, they also attempt to display some sort of pity and empathy for other, lesser members who like themselves, feel  somewhat challenged by the more direct, more literate and frankly more enlightened membership holding a contrary opinion.

 

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You can keep the flaming to yourself. I could care less what some anonymous poster says from the safety of his device.

It's no wonder that TVF is regarded with some disdain by posters to other forums as a refuge for bitter and twisted expats with nothing better to do that attack any poster they take a dislike to.

 

Then (in a response to another post by another member with a contrary opinion) they shoot themselves in the foot.

 

11 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

...

Given your recent entry to TVF I can only assume you haven't been in Thailand long enough to know much about it. I on the other hand have been riding in LOS for many years and been riding m'bikes since 1966. To say I have been lulled into this false sense of security is quite frankly laughable.

 

 

[Ossy]

12 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You can keep the flaming to yourself. I could care less what some anonymous poster says from the safety of his device.

It's no wonder that TVF is regarded with some disdain by posters to other forums as a refuge for bitter and twisted expats with nothing better to do that attack any poster they take a dislike to.

Hmm . . . wait 'til you see my 'PM pledges' post, ten minutes ago. Why can't 'they' just enjoy the debate/argument, without being rude and probably having neither the guts nor the conviction to make their jibes face-to-face. I've got an idea though . . .

[Ossy]

3 hours ago, Artisi said:

Problem solved, let's get on with the next one - maybe child abuse, should be just as easy ?

Why not suggest the 'next one', then, in the 'suggest a topic' box? . . . this being a popular line of yours, as I recall.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Ossy
omission

[Media1]

Sir

 

We do not care what your happy with. We simply do not want you as PM..We only care about the election date bye bye 

[MaxYakov]

16 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

Road safety for dummies - it’s a lot more than “driving”

 

< --- snipped --- >

 

Despite new roads (all poorly designed and constructed), more advance vehicles - the death toll continues to rise and this won’t stop until someone in authority gets informed that it is not DRIVNG, it is ROAD SAFETY that needs to be addressed.

As a cyclist and can say that in nine years of cycling in urban Bangkok, it was bad driving on the part of motor vehicle operators that caused me to have four collisions with their vehicles resulting in minor injury to me on each occurrence. This doesn't count the many times I've been cut off or otherwise ignored on a daily basis by motor vehicle operators that I've had to compensate for - often having to emergency brake. Nor does it count the few times I've been hit by a motor vehicle and not been injured.

 

I've never been injured by road engineering, conditions or maintenance issues even considering in what bad condition many of the roads and sidewalks are in. So, in my experience, skill, alertness and traffic rule observance by the motor vehicle operators (or lack thereof) comprises something like 95% of my "road safety" issues. Often operating similarly to a motorbike/cycle on the road, it's understandable to my why their mortality and injury rate is so high, especially with the much higher speeds they operate at relative to mine.

 

I eventually came to the realization that cyclists should not be sharing the road with motor vehicles in any country, especially Thailand. However, this is not news. The Danes already know this and have dealt with it in Copenhagen.

Edited October 30, 2017 by MaxYakov

[GarryP]

23 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

80% of fatalities on the roads in Thailand are "vulnerable" road users, this includes mainly motorbikes but also pedestrians and cyclists.

If you aren't in this category then your chances of being killed are about the same as in the USA.

It would be interesting to find out how many of the motorcycle fatalities were caused by third parties, i.e., riding correctly /safely but taken out by a car or pickup driving recklessly. I believe that it would make up quite a percentage of total motorcyclist fatalities (20%?). 

 

 I ride very defensively in Thailand, but I have no control over the other road users.        

[thecyclist]

23 hours ago, HOAX said:

What's even worse, is that here in Udon for some dumb reason, main roads with terrible conditions they do nothing about while roads that actually are good they get the idea of replacing it with a new but extremely bumpy roads t

Spot on .I have been cycling all over Thailand for ages, and regularly cycle in the Rayong/Chonburi  area where I noticed that they often start resurfacing a road that was solid, pothole-free, perfect, something you notice as a biker,while in the same area there are roads that are falling apart, and have been in a mess for ages, with nothing being done about it.The freshly resurfaced road then starts crumbling within months.Instead of improving things they have made it worse.I assume they inflexibly stick to some rigid schedule that a road has to be fixed after a certain number of years, no matter what state it is in , and can't be done before that deadline even if there are more holes than asphalt.

Corruption most likely plays a role too, when new roads start falling apart as soon as they are done, because they were built with substandard material.

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, GarryP said:

It would be interesting to find out how many of the motorcycle fatalities were caused by third parties, i.e., riding correctly /safely but taken out by a car or pickup driving recklessly. I believe that it would make up quite a percentage of total motorcyclist fatalities (20%?). 

 

 I ride very defensively in Thailand, but I have no control over the other road users.        

Not really - you a "fishing" for figures to back up a theory - that is going about things backwards.

You are also attempting a fallacious premise . allotting blame isn't part of road safety research - blaming others for driving is not a real part of road safety.

[InMyShadow]

They need to get rid of the biggest vehicle has the right of way mentality. A cement truck nearly squashed 5 bikers at a busy intersection on soi Buakhao literally by centimeters.. Driver could care less

 

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[GarryP]

3 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Not really - you a "fishing" for figures to back up a theory - that is going about things backwards.

You are also attempting a fallacious premise . allotting blame isn't part of road safety research - blaming others for driving is not a real part of road safety.

It is just something I find interesting.  I have seen motorcycles hit when doing nothing wrong - the driver of the other vehicle caused the accident.  So if a car drives into me when I am stopped at a junction, I should not care because it does not fall under the ambit of "road safety research"? Strange!!

 

PS in your response to another poster you said he meant the hard shoulder, when the original poster clearly made reference to motorcycle lanes. You will find that there are a number of roads in Thailand with clearly designated motorcycle lanes, and they are not on the hard shoulder. The hard shoulder is to the left of the motorcycle lane. 

[NanLaew]

10 minutes ago, InMyShadow said:

They need to get rid of the biggest vehicle has the right of way mentality. A cement truck nearly squashed 5 bikers at a busy intersection on soi Buakhao literally by centimeters.. Driver could care less

 

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

 

Since those particular cement trucks have been making that turn maybe dozens of times a day for the last 5 months or so, maybe the best thing that can happen to the indolent 5 bikers is to be squashed. Maybe after they get out of hospital, that will be 5 indolent bikers that will stop trying to sneak up the blind side of vehicles so they can cut across in front?

[InMyShadow]

Since those particular cement trucks have been making that turn maybe dozens of times a day for the last 5 months or so, maybe the best thing that can happen to the indolent 5 bikers is to be squashed. Maybe after they get out of hospital, that will be 5 indolent bikers that will stop trying to sneak up the blind side of vehicles so they can cut across in front?

Very true

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

[Airbagwill]

16 minutes ago, GarryP said:

It is just something I find interesting.  I have seen motorcycles hit when doing nothing wrong - the driver of the other vehicle caused the accident.  So if a car drives into me when I am stopped at a junction, I should not care because it does not fall under the ambit of "road safety research"? Strange!!

 

PS in your response to another poster you said he meant the hard shoulder, when the original poster clearly made reference to motorcycle lanes. You will find that there are a number of roads in Thailand with clearly designated motorcycle lanes, and they are not on the hard shoulder. The hard shoulder is to the left of the motorcycle lane. 

There are very few motorcycle lanes in Thailand - this is an assumption made by other motorists - motorcycles are forced of the lane onto the hard shoulder. The design is no good either, they are too narrow ill-demarkated and hve nothing to keep other traffic off.

[MaxYakov]

3 hours ago, GarryP said:

It would be interesting to find out how many of the motorcycle fatalities were caused by third parties, i.e., riding correctly /safely but taken out by a car or pickup driving recklessly. I believe that it would make up quite a percentage of total motorcyclist fatalities (20%?). 

 

 I ride very defensively in Thailand, but I have no control over the other road users.        

I was wondering the same thing earlier, especially being mowed down from behind, my greatest fear and one would think feared by motorcyclists as well. Oh, that's right! Thai motorcyclists and their passengers are fearless, pardon me.

Edited October 30, 2017 by MaxYakov

[GarryP]

2 minutes ago, MaxYakov said:

I was wondering the same thing earlier, especially being mowed down from behind, my greatest fear and one would think feared by motorcyclists as well. Oh, that's right! Thai motorcyclists are fearless, pardon me.

My greatest fear too. But apart from not riding my bike on the roads, it is something I have no control over.

[oldlakey]

11 hours ago, impulse said:

 

And the main (only?) difference between Thai's and the folks back home are the cops who let them get away with it here in LOS.

 

You can put it down to cultural differences, but I put it down to enforcement.  As evidence, head off to BKK and watch the foreigners drive.  They get just as bad as the locals once they figure out they can get away with it.  Even worse really, because they don't have decades of experience driving defensively like the locals do.

 

Driving defensively 5555555 where do you get it from

[mommysboy]

On 29/10/2017 at 6:37 PM, Airbagwill said:

Most of the posts on this thread are “flat-earther” comments - based on limited anecdotal interpretations of personal experience - the “I” witness.

 

Countries’ variations in death rates are not down to how stupid a population is there are many other factors.

One problem in Thailand is the potentially lethal combination of modes of transport - a deadly mix of pickups and motorcycles; the over-confident and the vulnerable.

 

Once a crash is in progress it is for the most part, no longer in the hands of the driver, what happens next is down to the vehicle and the environment.

Pickups in particular are bad in crashes - they are more likely to injure or kill other road-users (3^rd Parties) and don’t take very good care of their own occupants either. They have poor energy absorption and a high centre of gravity that makes them more liable to roll over.

Statistically Buses and Minivans are FAR safer, but you wouldn’t believe that if your only source of info was your local media.... bus crashes are “buzzworthy”

 

Motorcycles in Thailand present a totally different demographic to those in such places as Australia, Europe or UK. There are far more in Thailand and their use is ubiquitous. Motorcyclists are in the “highly vulnerable” category and in Thailand; this is 83% of all fatalities of which motorcycles are about 73% of all fatalities the remaining 10% being made up by pedestrians and cyclists. This is one figure that truly stands out as particular to Thailand alone.

However if you are in a private 4-wheel vehicle, your chances of death work out to be about the same as in the USA. (This isn’t saying much -it needs to be tempered with the knowledge that the USA has a death rate nearly 4 times higher than the top EU countries.)

 

Another problem when commenting on road safety in Thailand is the lack of good statistics. In fact the only stats available seem to be for actual deaths, which make an overall picture rather difficult.

The international norm for collating information is to examine every reported crash and repot it in terms of 3 grades - fatalities, serious injuries and minor injuries. This is simply not done on a consistent year round basis. In fact the gathering of statistics doesn’t really seem to be allotted to any one body in particular. The police seem to be the main source but they really don’t seem to be trained to do this - or at least don’t have their heart in it.

Analysis of crashes in Thailand is virtually nil.

 

There is also the problem of using and interpreting the stats that are available - in Thailand that means “death stats”

But in most cases only one set is used - the number of deaths per 100k population.

This ignores

·      Deaths par 100k vehicle

·      Kilometers travelled

·      Car ownership

·      Traffic density

·      Miles of road per country and types of road...

 

None of this is ever referred to. In fact on a worldwide basis Thailand fares much better on the other scales than on the famed Death per 100k.

 

Moreover, it would appear that Thailand has almost the same number of vehicle crashes as the UK - which is one of the “safest” countries in the world, so how come so many more die in Thailand?

 

It seems to me that those with no real understanding of road safety or even statistics are prepared to jump to conclusions about road safety in Thailand that are in reality quite bizarre when one takes a more thorough look at the evidence.

 

So next time you see some bad driving - consider it in terms of road safety (not just driving) - is it really that different from elsewhere? Are you pandering to cognitive bias, being racist or just making a false syllogism?

 

 

 

 

 

Speed kills. I'd guess that might be why so many die as a result of the accidents, whereas in the UK they don't.

 

All else is an argument of small differences.

[midas]

On 10/28/2017 at 12:44 PM, Cadbury said:

Vietnamese police are dynamite on helmets. I suspect most of the fines go into the hip pockets but at about US$10 a hit it has got them wearing helmets. 

When I was in Hue I was really impressed at how quickly they leap out of the police boxes and jump  onto those big police motorbikes they have and chase someone for the most minor traffic infringement. Law enforcement seems pretty good to Vietnam

[Airbagwill]

23 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Speed kills. I'd guess that might be why so many die as a result of the accidents, whereas in the UK they don't.

 

All else is an argument of small differences.

I'm sorry but I think the differences in the raod safety environment are enormous - and as Thailand refuses to come into line with the international community's thinking on road safety science(s), the gap will only widen.

 

I would suggest that the most likely reason more people die inThailand from the same number of incidents is down to environmental factors and in particular the appalling emergency services.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Airbagwill

[mommysboy]

16 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

I'm sorry but I think the differences in the raod safety environment are enormous - and as Thailand refuses to come into line with the international community's thinking on road safety science(s), the gap will only widen.

 

I would suggest that the most likely reason more people die inThailand from the same number of incidents is down to environmental factors and in particular the appalling emergency services.

 

Sure, the quality of roads is a factor too, and perhaps the poor response of emergency services, and a general lack of training.  My impression of riding on Thai roads is that there this is a small, but very dangerous minority of people -mainly young bikers- who drive recklessly and at speed.  I really think this is where the main source of the fatalities must arise.  At low speed most collisions don't kill, but by the time it reaches 40mph there is quite an increase.  I potter around on my motorbike mainly at 20- 30 mph.  Needless to say I am one of the slowest on the roads and am frequently overtaken.  Yet this is about normal speed for town riding in UK.

[hobz]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

 

Sure, the quality of roads is a factor too, and perhaps the poor response of emergency services, and a general lack of training.  My impression of riding on Thai roads is that there this is a small, but very dangerous minority of people -mainly young bikers- who drive recklessly and at speed.  I really think this is where the main source of the fatalities must arise.  At low speed most collisions don't kill, but by the time it reaches 40mph there is quite an increase.  I potter around on my motorbike mainly at 20- 30 mph.  Needless to say I am one of the slowest on the roads and am frequently overtaken.  Yet this is about normal speed for town riding in UK.

Yes, speed is the nr 1 issue! And some drivers seem to increase speed instead of slowing down when they are approaching situations.. They think oh if i slow down they will pull out in front of me and cut me off.. If i increase speed maybe they will give right of way... And when they do get cut off they again sverve  other lane recklessly instead of braking

. Causing all kinds of situations....

[mommysboy]

37 minutes ago, hobz said:

Yes, speed is the nr 1 issue! And some drivers seem to increase speed instead of slowing down when they are approaching situations.. They think oh if i slow down they will pull out in front of me and cut me off.. If i increase speed maybe they will give right of way... And when they do get cut off they again sverve  other lane recklessly instead of braking

. Causing all kinds of situations....

So true!

[Happyman58]

10 hours ago, oldlakey said:

Driving defensively 5555555 where do you get it from

That what they call it "locals driving defensively"  I call it a bloody mob of idiots on the road who dont know how to drive and me me me attitude I have to drive defensive to stay alive amongst the worse drivers in the world

[impulse]

16 hours ago, oldlakey said:

Driving defensively 5555555 where do you get it from

 

You’re kidding. Right?

 

Back home, I can drive for months without dodging anyone violating my legal right of way.  On one hand, it’s a pleasure to drive that way.  On the other, it’s not great practice for driving in Thailand where there’s no telling what another driver’s going to do, regardless of what the law says they should be doing.  Because the odds of them getting pulled over for breaking the law are between slim and none in LOS. 

 

Dodging those guys is what defensive driving is all about.  And Thai drivers are masters at it.  They have to be, or they wouldn’t last a week.

 

[Ossy]

3 hours ago, impulse said:

Dodging those guys is what defensive driving is all about.  And Thai drivers are masters at it.  They have to be, or they wouldn’t last a week.

Sorry Impulse, but for the first time (I think), I must disagree with you. In fact, more than that; your defensive driving - in this special 'driving in Thailand' context - scores a direct BOLLACKS!

Defensive driving, anywhere, is 'safety first', as opposed to 'me first' driving; it's careful driving, driving with eyes in the back of your head in order to avoid, if possible, every potential accident. As for your view that Thai drivers are masters of the art, I reckon it's just the opposite . . . steering the blessed car is about it, for most of them. As for 'dodging those guys', if they manage to do that on their next trip to Tesco, they're happy . . . if they manage to do the dodging for, let's say, a thousand km, that's fortunate.

And that's before we even get onto the subject of offensive driving which is where too many Thai drivers do score. That's for the race track and the likes of Lewis Hamilton and the fact that there are, I estimate, a half-a-million or more Lewis's in Thailand is the main factor behind the need for your defensive driving . . . driving to keep yourself alive, no less.

Edited October 31, 2017 by metisdead
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