The time when America stopped being great

sturdyd · November 4, 2017

I was born and raised in the US and while I still love my country I'm disgusted by its politics.

It was during the Vietnam war that I realized -- perhaps belatedly -- that the government I respected had no qualms about lying to me. It was a rotten period. Rioting in the streets, Kent State, the '68 Democratic Convention...

A horribly divisive time that sadly only got worse, and the woeful litany of inept presidents afterwards didn't help. I recall Reagan saying, "Vote with your feet", or words to that effect. Well, I did.

baboon · November 4, 2017

2 minutes ago, sturdyd said:

I was born and raised in the US and while I still love my country I'm disgusted by its politics.

It was during the Vietnam war that I realized -- perhaps belatedly -- that the government I respected had no qualms about lying to me. It was a rotten period. Rioting in the streets, Kent State, the '68 Democratic Convention...

A horribly divisive time that sadly only got worse, and the woeful litany of inept presidents afterwards didn't help. I recall Reagan saying, "Vote with your feet", or words to that effect. Well, I did.

It isn't just the States. They are all at it and seem to think it is just fine, the scumbags.

Morch · November 4, 2017

2 hours ago, Rancid said:

All empires eventually decline through rampant corruption. The US has been captured by the military complex and banking cabals, these parasites control corrupt government and stand at the front of the line to collect all the spoils. Hence all the wars and war mongering.

Reality is that the US can no longer continue the enormous spending on its military. Who is the US afraid of, no country would ever dare attack them, its purely about money. Latest is a 3 trillion dollar program to upgrade their nuclear arsenal, who do you suppose will be pocketing a large hunk of that money that could have been spent on constructive job creating infrastructure?

Sad thing is that the US originally stood for freedom and equality, however the usual suspects eventually bought and corrupted the whole system, it is now even worse than the old monarchies many escaped from. Regardless, massive corruption and oppression of liberty always collapses eventually, it isn't about if but when.

"...it is now even worse than the old monarchies many escaped from. "

Hyperbolic unadulterated bovine excrement.

craigt3365 · November 4, 2017

35 minutes ago, baboon said:

It isn't just the States. They are all at it and seem to think it is just fine, the scumbags.

I've been lucky to travel to many countries. My #1 take away? People are pretty much the same no matter where you go, they are good and just want to live a good life.

The #1 problem in the world today? Their leaders. Governments and their leaders are creating most of the problems in the world today. All so they can line their pockets with cash, or protect their positions.

buick · November 4, 2017

i'd say the decline began after the 1st gulf war. sure seemed like a pinnacle for america. can't say lot of positive things since that time. about a decade later, the politically correct police took over the country. used to be 'sticks and stones will break my bones, names will never hurt me'. now it is hard to speak w/o offending or insulting someone. that has really sped up the decline. not sure when that fully took hold but i'd say last 10 yrs. i prefer honesty over political correctness. just say what you feel !!!

KarenBravo · November 4, 2017

America Great?

Doesn't that depend on who you are and your perspective?

The US was "great" in the 50's and 60's............unless you were black, of course.

craigt3365 · November 4, 2017

1 minute ago, KarenBravo said:

America Great?

Doesn't that depend on who you are and your perspective?

The US was "great" in the 50's and 60's............unless you were black, of course.

Or American Indian, or.....

zydeco · November 4, 2017

On 11/3/2017 at 12:55 PM, champers said:

Good read and it is not wrong to say that USA is becoming less relevant. The development of third world countries in Asia and Africa is mostly supported by the Chinese. USA has turned inwards when it needs to look outwards.

Yes, the Chinese model has so much to offer the world: one party rule, dictatorship, opaque economy and state directed businesses, ghost cities, tofu bridges and apartment houses, desertification on a massive scale, rivers loaded with sulfur and mercury (all while preening about how environmentally conscious they are), etc. And just look at how all the rest of the world can't wait to watch Chinese (censored) television, wear Chinese fashion, play Chinese games, follow Chinese family planning policy. And, oh, how to follow in the footsteps of making all the "loans" you give out to Third World countries contingent on those countries accepting Chinese workers, administrators, and planners. Yep, that's the new enlightened model. That closely monitored and censored single internet gateway ought to be a hoot for everybody as well.

champers · November 4, 2017

2 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Yes, the Chinese model has so much to offer the world: one party rule, dictatorship, opaque economy and state directed businesses, ghost cities, tofu bridges and apartment houses, desertification on a massive scale, rivers loaded with sulfur and mercury (all while preening about how environmentally conscious they are), etc. And just look at how all the rest of the world can't wait to watch Chinese (censored) television, wear Chinese fashion, play Chinese games, follow Chinese family planning policy. And, oh, how to follow in the footsteps of making all the "loans" you give out to Third World countries contingent on those countries accepting Chinese workers, administrators, and planners. Yep, that's the new enlightened model. That closely monitored and censored single internet gateway ought to be a hoot for everybody as well.

I wasn't making a value judgement about the Chinese in my post; I was stating the fact that the Chinese are increasingly active in Asia and Africa. I don't expect the USA to take sole responsibility for offering up an alternative; other Western countries should be far more active than they are. The West, in general, are spectating and not acting.

zydeco · November 4, 2017

21 hours ago, farcanell said:

In such a short existence, it gathered an incomparable amount of migrants, who contributed amazingly to the enhancement of these things... being the home of the free.

Immigrants? You mean like Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, the Wright Brothers, Benjamin Franklin, Willis Carrier (without whom most expats in Thailand would be living miserable lives, especially in April), Jonas Salk, Cyrus McCormick, Eli Whitney, et al?

the guest · November 4, 2017

18 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Yes, the Chinese model has so much to offer the world: one party rule, dictatorship, opaque economy and state directed businesses, ghost cities, tofu bridges and apartment houses, desertification on a massive scale, rivers loaded with sulfur and mercury (all while preening about how environmentally conscious they are), etc. And just look at how all the rest of the world can't wait to watch Chinese (censored) television, wear Chinese fashion, play Chinese games, follow Chinese family planning policy. And, oh, how to follow in the footsteps of making all the "loans" you give out to Third World countries contingent on those countries accepting Chinese workers, administrators, and planners. Yep, that's the new enlightened model. That closely monitored and censored single internet gateway ought to be a hoot for everybody as well.

If you see the state of the west, you might forgive the Chinese pulling a few strings on the population.

thaihome · November 4, 2017

I think the very divisiveness that people claim is the problem today is what makes, and continues to do so, the US great. This started the day after George Washington's in first inauguration 1789 with the publication of first of many newspaper editorials viciously attacking his policies. Political leaders from the president down to local councils have been attacked by the mass media of the day since the first Continental Congress. A historical perspective is very important to keep in mind.

The issues that are considered so divisive today have been around since the beginning. The role of government in everyday life from Federal to local, government spending, taxes, the morals of political leaders, immigration, internal and external threats and terrorism, crime, the criminal justice system, healthcare, the appropriate level of social services, government regulation of business, racial relations, corruption, and money money in politics, just to name a few, have all been controversial issues for the entire history of the US.

In fact, the only political issue that the US has been able to definitely solve is human chattel slavery and that took a 4 year war killed over 500,000 and maimed countless millions to settle. though all the associated racial issues the accompanied slavery have never been solved, there has not been a peep about slavery since April 1865,

What makes the US great is we can have these political discussions for over 250 years and except for slavery, it has not caused a breakdown in civil society and I hope and do not think it will now. A hundred years ago, anarchists terrorists were exploding bombs, including one at the home of the Attorney General, almost once a week causing a huge ant-immigration movement. 125 years ago the US declared war on Spain due almost exclusively due to a circulation war between the two leading newspapers in New York city. 60 years ago a right wing demogue was trampling the rights of hundred of people. All done in the mass media of the day.

What makes today seem so different is the 50 year trend of people living, working, and socially interacting with people of similar demographics and existing in what is referred to as an "echo chamber". There was a time, not so long ago, where political discussions at work, at the local bar or dinner party were conducted in a civil manner and disagreements were generally handled without resorting to defiant angry demoguagry due to social constraints.

So what we have today is people living in echo chambers and the only political disagreements people conduct are on internet forums, blogs, and social media where civil discourse is not required as in a face to face social setting. But the issues remain the same and just as unsolvable.

The author of OP first came to US as a teenager in the midst of the pageantry of the Olympics and attempts to compare that to what he sees today as a divisive country when in fact in 1984 the same issues as today existed, just as they did in 1789.

So, is the US going to fall apart? No, its not. The very fact we have these heated, angry, passionate discussions in the open, regardless if is fact based or not, is what has always made the US great and why it is great today.

It doesn't matter if the fact free, irrational attack comes from the National Gazette in 1790 or Info Wars 2017. The very existence of the attacks is what makes the US great.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Evelyn Beatrice Hall
https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/evelynbeat109645.html

TH

sirineou · November 4, 2017

After WW2 America was an Oasis in an otherwise bleak world economic landscape around the world.

Manufacturing capacity was destroyed or severely reduced.

So , no surprise that Talent and Development made a beeline for the Oasis, and the US grew by leaps and bounds , Eventually the rest of the world redeveloped, and took back it's share of production and consumption but the US failed to properly adjust to the new situation.

Now the US wants to be " Great again" much IMO like the Brexit desire to restore past greatness, but IMO one can not go back, these places no longer exist

( unless the conditions that created this past greatness are recreated, and who wants to do that)

What America,and others, needs to do is readjust, get over itself, reclaim it's fair share

(more of this and less of that)

And move forward in the new reality with prosperity and equity for all .

ilostmypassword · November 4, 2017

1 hour ago, zydeco said:

Immigrants? You mean like Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, the Wright Brothers, Benjamin Franklin, Willis Carrier (without whom most expats in Thailand would be living miserable lives, especially in April), Jonas Salk, Cyrus McCormick, Eli Whitney, et al?

Are you seriously asserting that because these people weren't immigrants, therefore immigrants to the USA haven't haven't made hugely important contributions to the advancement of science and technology. For example, it was Nikolas Tesla, an immigrant from Serbia who came up with the A/C current system which decisively beat Edison's DC system. And of course there are countless further examples. Whatever did you think you were going to prove by citing this list?

farcanell · November 4, 2017

2 hours ago, zydeco said:

Immigrants? You mean like Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, the Wright Brothers, Benjamin Franklin, Willis Carrier (without whom most expats in Thailand would be living miserable lives, especially in April), Jonas Salk, Cyrus McCormick, Eli Whitney, et al?

Just so.... or their parents / grandparents ( more relevantly) who gave their children a chance to thrive in the new world, largely free of secular or dynastic persecution

but then there’s people like Nicola Tesla, Igor Sikorsky, Du Pont, Einstein, Andrew Carnegie, Enrico Fermini, Elizabeth Stern, mikhail baryshnikov, Arni Schwarzenegger.... and hippy kai yah mudderferker (Bruce Willis.... where would y’all be without him?)

but yall know what what I mean.

attrayant · November 4, 2017

3 hours ago, buick said:

now it is hard to speak w/o offending or insulting someone

No, it's not really that hard. Some people just need to improve their vocabulary.

farcanell · November 4, 2017

47 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Are you seriously asserting that because these people weren't immigrants, therefore immigrants to the USA haven't haven't made hugely important contributions to the advancement of science and technology. For example, it was Nikolas Tesla, an immigrant from Serbia who came up with the A/C current system which decisively beat Edison's DC system. And of course there are countless further examples. Whatever did you think you were going to prove by citing this list?

Lol... maybe that they are not all great thinkers.... a negative for every positive..

janclaes47 · November 4, 2017

On 03/11/2017 at 6:03 PM, craigt3365 said:

We're talking the internet. Not the first computer, which didn't have communications abilities like the internet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee OM KBE FRS FREng FRSA FBCS (born 8 June 1955),^[1] also known as TimBL, is an English engineer and computer scientist, best known as the inventor of the World Wide Web.

ilostmypassword · November 4, 2017

5 minutes ago, farcanell said:

Lol... maybe that they are not all great thinkers.... a negative for every positive..

Whereas native born-Americans are?

farcanell · November 4, 2017

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

Whereas native born-Americans are?

My response was an answer to the last question in your post

native born americans?... not to be disparaged... but no better than any other person with the same opportunities... it are those that shape us

Sir Dude · November 4, 2017

America is still a great country but it has been poisoned by western neo-liberalism over the last 30 years, rather like Europe has. Sadly for the haters but it has nothing to do with Trump and ingrained itself long before he even thought of politics. Yes, there have been mistakes on all sides and the west, as a collective, has gotten far too involved with conflicts and countries they nothing of or how to sort out. They (the west) won't be toppling anymore dictators anytime soon after the negative experiences of a few recent endeavours has shown it's better to leave them (dictators) in charge as most places outside the EU and North America are simply not suitable for democracy due to a myriad of reason including religion and all sorts of stuff.

However, all these screw-ups the western countries have collectively overseen everywhere have been under the watch of neo-liberal governments, who have all been liberal to greater or lesser degrees, that know sweet FA about anything other than their intransigent & dogmatic collective ideology. There have been no real conservative or republican governments for a long time on both sides of the Atlantic...just spineless liberals which is why everything is such an <deleted> mess. We can't even choose what Halloween costume to wear without some silly liberal activist wagging their fingers at you about what's inappropriate and what's not...the west is lost to morons.

Couldn't find the contemptuous emoji.

craigt3365 · November 5, 2017

12 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

Sir Timothy John Berners-Lee OM KBE FRS FREng FRSA FBCS (born 8 June 1955),^[1] also known as TimBL, is an English engineer and computer scientist, best known as the inventor of the World Wide Web.

The "internet" was already going by the time this guy came along, but yes, his contributions were massive. Hard to pin down exactly who invented the internet as there are so many players and so many parts. But this is about as close as it comes.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/15/how-the-internet-was-invented-1976-arpa-kahn-cerf

Quote

The people who invented the internet came from all over the world. They worked at places as varied as the French government-sponsored computer network Cyclades, England’s National Physical Laboratory, the University of Hawaii and Xerox. But the mothership was the US defense department’s lavishly funded research arm, the Advanced Research Projects Agency (Arpa) – which later changed its name to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa) – and its many contractors. Without Arpa, the internet wouldn’t exist.

ilostmypassword · November 5, 2017

9 hours ago, Sir Dude said:

America is still a great country but it has been poisoned by western neo-liberalism over the last 30 years, rather like Europe has. Sadly for the haters but it has nothing to do with Trump and ingrained itself long before he even thought of politics. Yes, there have been mistakes on all sides and the west, as a collective, has gotten far too involved with conflicts and countries they nothing of or how to sort out. They (the west) won't be toppling anymore dictators anytime soon after the negative experiences of a few recent endeavours has shown it's better to leave them (dictators) in charge as most places outside the EU and North America are simply not suitable for democracy due to a myriad of reason including religion and all sorts of stuff.

However, all these screw-ups the western countries have collectively overseen everywhere have been under the watch of neo-liberal governments, who have all been liberal to greater or lesser degrees, that know sweet FA about anything other than their intransigent & dogmatic collective ideology. There have been no real conservative or republican governments for a long time on both sides of the Atlantic...just spineless liberals which is why everything is such an <deleted> mess. We can't even choose what Halloween costume to wear without some silly liberal activist wagging their fingers at you about what's inappropriate and what's not...the west is lost to morons.

Couldn't find the contemptuous emoji.

Thank you for spewing. Any thoughts with substance to share?

janclaes47 · November 5, 2017

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

The "internet" was already going by the time this guy came along, but yes, his contributions were massive. Hard to pin down exactly who invented the internet as there are so many players and so many parts. But this is about as close as it comes.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/15/how-the-internet-was-invented-1976-arpa-kahn-cerf

The internet and the World Wide Web are 2 different things.

What you are using to connect to this forum, as you mentioned in previous replies to other posters in post #30 and #33, is the WWW.

https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch001016.htm

WWW

Tim Berners-Lee introduces WWW to the public on August 6, 1991 and becomes available for everyone August 23, 1991. The World Wide Web (WWW) is what most people today consider the "Internet" or a series of sites and pages that are connected with links. The Internet had hundreds of people who helped develop the standards and technologies used today, but without the WWW, the Internet would not be as popular as it is today.

Grouse · November 5, 2017

On 03/11/2017 at 4:44 PM, craigt3365 said:

Agreed. Saying the Secret Service overthrows governments. Too funny...

Clearly you know little about the CIA

craigt3365 · November 5, 2017

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Clearly you know little about the CIA

About as much as you do. And the Secret Service ain't the CIA! LOL

Grouse · November 5, 2017

12 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

About as much as you do. And the Secret Service ain't the CIA! LOL

OK, true if you want to be pedantic but to non American general readers they are synonymous

Maybe you would like to compare and contrast their roles and history and include the NSA while you're at it

thanks!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secret_Service

craigt3365 · November 5, 2017

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

OK, true if you want to be pedantic but to non American general readers they are synonymous

Maybe you would like to compare and contrast their roles and history and include the NSA while you're at it

thanks!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secret_Service

Now you're really going off topic. NSA? Good gosh....

zydeco · November 5, 2017

26 minutes ago, Grouse said:

OK, true if you want to be pedantic but to non American general readers they are synonymous

Maybe you would like to compare and contrast their roles and history and include the NSA while you're at it

thanks!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Secret_Service

Nothing pedantic about it. The Secret Service works domestically. The CIA is prohibited from working domestically.

lannarebirth · November 5, 2017

4 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Nothing pedantic about it. The Secret Service works domestically. The CIA is prohibited from working domestically.

The Secret Service works overseas if their mission takes them there. I'm not sure how the Secret Service became conflated with the CIA in this thread. They are two diffent agencies working in two different departments whose missions are entirely different.

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