Gunman opens fire at Texas church, killing at least 20

[samran]

10 minutes ago, MJKT2014 said:

Everywhere else in the world restricts access to guns. Seems to work.

 

Funny about that. There Islamic fundamentalism and second amendment fatalism. 

 

Words written hundreds of years ago which have no place in a modern society. 

 

Yet both have their well funded adherents. 

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, edwinchester said:

Pretty simple solution....just change the law.....it's called an amendment!

Well,  throughout its history the Supreme Court has had different interpretations of what the second amendment means. Basically it boils down to how much importance gets attached to the phrase "a well regulated militia".

[boomerangutang]

A Bible-thumper.   One of several terrorist groups in the US, yet not officially noted as one.

[oxo1947]

The mass shooter in Texas is named Devin Patrick Kelley: When informed, Trump said: "That's a very strange name for a Muslim.".............

[Peterw42]

14 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

The problem is the Supreme Courts decision on what the 2nd Amendment means. Like the Dred Scott decision, I hope the decisions allowing unrestricted gun ownership will be changed. For those not familiar with the 2nd Amendment wording, it begins..."A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Perhaps enforcing the Amendment more closely to its intent would help address this issue. For the record, I am an American, a gun owner and have held a Concealed Deadly Weapon License. Firmly support ownership, after a background check and a required training course. Weapons limited for hunting, pistol for home defense. Firmly oppose ownership of assault type weapons, silencers, devices to cause automatic firing.

Being a gun owner, and not in the militia (army or police), Are you not in direct contradiction to the 2nd amendment intent ?

In its literal meaning and intent, it says "the army and police can have guns".

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Peterw42

[boomerangutang]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

If only the first choice were even possible.  Pandora's box is open already.  Look at Mexico, just a couple hours down the road from Sutherland Springs.  Extremely tight gun control, yet that doesn't stop the bad guys... 

Interesting, you mention Mexico.  They have worse problems with guns than the US.  Sometimes a gang will go pueblo to pueblo, shooting people and burning houses.  That happens mostly near the US border.   Guess where the Mexicans get most of their guns?  Yup, on the US side of the border.  There are hundreds of gun shows in the US (many in Las Vegas and Texas towns near the Mexican border) where it's as easy to buy a guy as it is to buy a candy bar.

[craigt3365]

17 minutes ago, MJKT2014 said:

Everywhere else in the world restricts access to guns. Seems to work.

I was referring to acid attacks, truck attacks, bomb attacks....but yes, restricting guns would be a great first step.  Sadly, the worst terrorist attacks in the US were not carried out by guns.  I lived through the worst one....

[Peterw42]

15 minutes ago, edwinchester said:

Pretty simple solution....just change the law.....it's called an amendment!

Or take the 2nd amendment as it is written, in its entirety, the militia (army, police, national guard) can have guns. It doesnt need to be changed, just stop quoting one part of it (the right to bear arms), out of context.

[MJKT2014]

18 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

The problem is the Supreme Courts decision on what the 2nd Amendment means.

I'm not an American but the 2nd Amendment dates back to 1791? To most this would seem bizarre?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

48 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

 For the record, I am an American, a gun owner and have held a Concealed Deadly Weapon License. Firmly support ownership, after a background check and a required training course. Weapons limited for hunting, pistol for home defense. Firmly oppose ownership of assault type weapons, silencers, devices to cause automatic firing.

 

Finally some sanity from a gun owner regarding a reasonable approach to gun laws...

 

Back when the founders drafted the U.S. Constitution, there were no assault weapons and automatic firing tech. There were single shot muskets that took quite a bit of time to reload per shot.

 

When the founders said right to bear arms, there's no way on heaven or earth that they meant for enabling this kind of repeated and senseless slaughter of innocents.

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[boomerangutang]

46 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

The problem is the Supreme Courts decision on what the 2nd Amendment means. Like the Dred Scott decision, I hope the decisions allowing unrestricted gun ownership will be changed. For those not familiar with the 2nd Amendment wording, it begins..."A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Perhaps enforcing the Amendment more closely to its intent would help address this issue. For the record, I am an American, a gun owner and have held a Concealed Deadly Weapon License. Firmly support ownership, after a background check and a required training course. Weapons limited for hunting, pistol for home defense. Firmly oppose ownership of assault type weapons, silencers, devices to cause automatic firing.

You sound responsible.  However, it's too easy for gun-lovers to slip between the cracks.  Even if just 1/10th of 1% of military-grade guns are screwballs, that's hundreds of thousands of screwballs roaming around the US with loaded weapons.   And even sane people can crack. There are tens of thousands of stories of people who went postal, whereas all their neighbors and family (when asked, after the law-breaking), would say, "oh, he was a nice boy. He was mindful of his mother. I can't imagine he would hurt anyone." 

 

The problem is:  the US is too saturated with guns, many of which are military-type / semi-auto, etc.   The sale of bump stock add-ons skyrocketed after the LV massacre. 

 

If go to day-care centers around the country, and hand out razor cutter knives to kids, .....there will likely be a lot more kids getting cut in ensuing days.       

 

You might say, "that's not plausible, because day care minders wouldn't allow you to hand out razor knives."   

 

My response:  That's the role ATF and US congresspeople are supposed to uphold:  to regulate the distribution of guns in the US.  They're not doing their jobs.  Indeed, ATF, Republican congresspeople and the NRA share the guilt in the TX church shootings.  They're enablers and should be sued as co-conspirators.

[Get Real]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

What da hell can you say when you read news like this? numb, shocked, disbelief, anger, where do you start, the thing is that

this type of senseless killings is here to stay and it's gone beyond the factors of religion, left-right parity or who's right who's wrong, this is killing for the sake of killing....

There are 2 things you can say:

• If this is an action that has connection to terrorism, then the US with their way of trying to control the world put them self in the spot.
• If it´s only a madman with a gun, then the US with their way of not caring for the sick and mentally ill put themself in the spot.

Unfortunately innocent people die everytime. It will take a long time before the US government understand that, though.
RIP to the innocent and the victims.

[carmine]

29 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Finally some sanity from a gun owner regarding a reasonable approach to gun laws...

 

Back when the founders drafted the U.S. Constitution, there were no assault weapons and automatic firing tech. There were single shot muskets that took quite a bit of time to reload per shot.

 

When the founders said right to bear arms, there's no way on heaven or earth that they meant for enabling this kind of repeated and senseless slaughter of innocents.

 

All very true.  I believe the founding fathers would have been the first to be steaming for stricter control.   Yet for years politicians have failed to address this.  Maybe guns, the NRA are more important to US politicians than children being murdered.  And as i have said earlier, most Americans i have spoken to have a peculiar personality change as soon as gun control is starting to be discussed.  

 

As the rest of the 1st world looks on in bewilderment and disbelief......... 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just to provide a bit of clarity on the legal front:

 

The U.S. had a kind of flawed/partil ban on assault weapons, newly manufactured ones, that was in effect from 1994 to 2004 after having been signed into law by President Clinton. It had been challenged, and was upheld in the courts. Unfortunately, to get it passed narrowly by the Senate at that time, it was drafted with a 10-year sunset provision, and then has never been renewed, because Republicans gained greater power.

 

There's no legal reason why the U.S. could not enact that or a similar law now. The only reason it hasn't happened is Republican presidents, including Trump, and the Republicans in Congress refuse to consider it. That's why we have sad days like today, and tomorrow, and the day after....

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

Edited November 6, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, JCauto said:

Yes, everyone being heavily armed with an assault rifle, that sounds great! Look at Canada, which is far more similar in socio-economics, ethnic makeup and culture than Mexico, which is a developing country that speaks Spanish. 

 

Why don't all you gun nuts go to war zones where your dreams can be reality? 

 

Switzerland has very high gun possession. Yet we don't hear of mass shootings and killings there.

 

It's isn't the guns per se. It's far greater than that. Drugs, films and computer games glorifying violence, guns and murder, and lack of mental health care. The world is changing at an ever increasing rate. Not all humans can deal well with that complexity and uncertainty. 

Banning guns, knives and any weapons will be as effective as banning drugs. Seek new solutions.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, MJKT2014 said:

I'm not an American but the 2nd Amendment dates back to 1791? To most this would seem bizarre?

 

And Magna Carta dates back to 1215!

 

 

[wwest5829]

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Being a gun owner, and not in the militia (army or police), Are you not in direct contradiction to the 2nd amendment intent ?

In its literal meaning and intent, it says "the army and police can have guns".

 

If I was a "strict constructionist" of the Consitution, I would be in violation not being a member of the local national guard (this is the closest to a well trained local militia). There was no standing army nor police forces at the time of the writing of the Constitution. But I am not a strict constructionist so I do not have that burden of sorting out the changes that have taken place since the writing of the document. Like many US issues today it is the extreme "all or nothing" stance that stops reason from making any reasonable advances (those of whichever political ilk).

[carmine]

2 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

And Magna Carta dates back to 1215!

 

 

Is there any point to this response seeing as we are discussing an ammendment in GUN CONTROL that is ludicrously outdated?

[Baerboxer]

Just now, carmine said:

Is there any point to this response seeing as we are discussing an ammendment in GUN CONTROL that is ludicrously outdated?

 

Yes. But seems it's too subtle or intellectual for you.

 

It's only "outdated" because dismissing it as such suits your agenda. Time alone doesn't make it outdated.

[dave_boo]

In case anyone was wondering as to the unidentified flag, having grown up in the Bible belt I can tell you it's the "Christian flag".

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=christian+flag&client=ms-android-samsung&prmd=isnv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVieOBg6nXAhUKS2MKHWnnAgAQ_AUIEigB&biw=360&bih=560&dpr=4

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

To anyone who wants to argue over whether some kind of assault weapons ban in the U.S. would reduce this kind of violence, a couple of thoughts:

 

1. Having tighter restrictions or a ban on assault weapons certainly would not make matters any worse than they are now. And if it even prevented ONE of these kinds of episodes, it would be worth it, IMHO...

 

2. In today's world, what possible legitimate reason exists for ANY civilian to possess assault rifles/assault weapons? And if assault rifles are ok, why not rocket launchers, machine guns, chemical weapons??? After all, every U.S. citizen/civilian should be entitled to kill as many people as modern technology can allow...

[webfact]

Gunman kills at least 26 worshippers at small-town Texas church

By Lisa Maria Garza

 

Police have closed off the roads near the scene of the First Baptist Church shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas, U.S., November 5, 2017. REUTERS/Joe Mitchell

 

SUTHERLAND SPRINGS, Texas (Reuters) - A gunman dressed in black tactical gear massacred at least 26 worshippers and wounded 20 others at a white-steepled church in Texas on Sunday, carrying out the latest in a series of mass shootings that have plagued the United States.

 

The lone suspect, also wearing a ballistic vest and carrying a Ruger assault rifle, fired into the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs and kept shooting after he went inside. Sutherland Springs is in Wilson County, about 40 miles (65 km) east of San Antonio.

 

The victims ranged in age from 5 to 72 years old, law enforcement officials told a news conference. Among the dead was the 14-year-old daughter of Pastor Frank Pomeroy, the family told several television stations.

 

After the shooting, the gunman, described as a white man in his 20s, was fired on by a local resident with a rifle. The suspect dropped his assault weapon, and fled in his vehicle, said Freeman Martin, regional director of the Texas Department of Public Safety.

 

Soon afterward, the suspect crashed his vehicle near the border of neighbouring Guadalupe County and was found dead inside with a cache of weapons.

 

It was not immediately clear if the suspect killed himself or was hit when the resident fired at him outside the church, authorities said.

 

"We are dealing with the largest mass shooting in our state’s history," Texas Governor Greg Abbott said at the news conference. "The tragedy of course is worsened by the fact that it occurred in a church, a place of worship where these people were innocently gunned down."

 

The suspect's identity was not disclosed by authorities, but law enforcement officials who asked not to be named said he was Devin Patrick Kelley, described as a white, 26-year-old man, the New York Times and other media reported.

 

"We don't think he had any connection to this church," Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt told CNN. "We have no motive."

 

'ACT OF EVIL'

 

Jeff Forrest, a 36-year-old military veteran who lives a block away from the church, said what sounded like high-caliber, semi-automatic gunfire triggered memories of his four combat deployments with the Marine Corps.

 

“I was on the porch, I heard 10 rounds go off and then my ears just started ringing,” Forrest said. “I hit the deck and I just lay there."

 

The massacre came just weeks after a sniper killed 58 people at an outdoor concert in Las Vegas, the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history. The shootings have stirred a years-long national debate over whether easy access to firearms was contributing to the trend.

 

President Donald Trump said he was monitoring the situation while in Japan on a 12-day Asian trip.

 

"This act of evil occurred as the victims and their families were in their place of sacred worship," the president said. "Through the tears and through the sadness we stand strong, oh so strong."

 

According to the witnesses, about 20 shots rang out at 11:30 a.m. (1730 GMT) during the church services, according to media reports. It was unclear how many worshippers were inside at the time.

 

Connally Memorial Medical Center in Floresville received eight patients, the hospital said in a statement, while Brooke Army Medical Center at Fort Sam Houston received another eight.

 

At Connally, three people were treated and released, one is in critical condition and four were transferred to the University Hospital in San Antonio for a higher level of care.

 

The First Baptist Church is one of two houses of worship in Sutherland Springs, an area home to fewer than 900 residents, according to the 2010 Census. There are also two gas stations and a Dollar General store in town.

 

The white-painted, one-story structure features a small steeple and a single front door. On Sunday, the Lone Star flag of Texas was flying alongside the U.S. flag and a third, unidentified banner.

 

Inside, there is a small raised platform on which members sang worship songs to guitar music and the pastor delivered a weekly sermon, according to videos posted on YouTube. In one of the clips, a few dozen people, including young children, can be seen sitting in the wooden pews.

 

SOCIAL MEDIA PRESENCE

 

While authorities provided little information about the suspect, online records show that a man named Devon Patrick Kelley lived in New Braunfels, Texas, about 35 miles (56 km) north of Sutherland Springs.

 

The U.S. Air Force said Kelley served in its Logistics Readiness unit at Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico from 2010 until his discharge.

 

Kelley's Facebook page has been deleted, but cached photos show a profile picture where he appeared with two small children. He also posted a photo of what appeared to be an assault rifle, writing a post that read: "she's a bad bitch."

 

The shooting occurred on the eighth anniversary of the Nov. 5, 2009, massacre of 13 people at the Fort Hood Army base in central Texas. A U.S. Army Medical Corps psychiatrist convicted of the killings is now awaiting execution.

 

In 2015, a white gunman killed nine black parishioners at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina. The gunman was sentenced to death for the racially motivated attack.

 

In September, a gunman killed a woman in the parking lot of a Tennessee church on Sunday morning and wounded six worshippers inside the building before shooting himself in a scuffle with an usher who rushed to stop the attack.

 

(Additional reporting by Bernie Woodall in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., Jon Herskovitz in Austin, Texas and Phil Stewart in Washington; Writing by Frank McGurty; Editing by Lisa Shumaker and Peter Cooney)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-11-06

[FritsSikkink]

They will never learn, nobody needs an assault weapon. Luckily they have truck loads of thought and prayers. Actually doing something about it is a bridge too far.

[pattayadon]

4 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Yet another act of terrorism utilizing widely available weaponry. 

 

But, it likely won't be called 'terrorism' if it doesn't involve a Muslim person.

 

And, it is "too soon" to talk about gun control.

 

Americans, through their inaction, have decided that these kinds of mass shootings are okay. I truly do not understand what kind of society believes that. Respectfully, Americans and their leaders need to have a good, long look in the mirror. 

 

How many more mass shootings until something changes?

 

What can you change?

[mikebike]

5 minutes ago, pattayadon said:

What can you change?

Yeah!! Its not as though the US has a system to change laws and make things better for their populace... ya know, keep reducing the bad and increasing the good... a more perfect union and all that!! Nah - just accept the status quo!!

[Just Weird]

3 hours ago, 4evermaat said:

"Remember remember the 5th of November" .... Guy Fawkes day. Coincidence?


Sent from my ASUS_Z010D using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

As  "Guy Fawkes Day" is such a huge celebration in the US it must be.

[rosst]

5 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

Yet another act of terrorism utilizing widely available weaponry. 

 

But, it likely won't be called 'terrorism' if it doesn't involve a Muslim person.

 

And, it is "too soon" to talk about gun control.

 

Americans, through their inaction, have decided that these kinds of mass shootings are okay. I truly do not understand what kind of society believes that. Respectfully, Americans and their leaders need to have a good, long look in the mirror. 

 

How many more mass shootings until something changes?

 

Unfortunately the driving of vehicles into crowded pavement is what is and will proliferate if gun controls are imposed.  It is too late to put the genie back in the bottle. 

[mikebike]

2 minutes ago, rosst said:

Unfortunately the driving of vehicles into crowded pavement is what is and will proliferate if gun controls are imposed.  It is too late to put the genie back in the bottle. 

Another master of false equivalence... Do nothing, everything kills...

 

On another note I just got my concealed carry license for my F150. I like to have my truck on me in case someone attacks me in my office with a U-Haul rental... LOL!!!

[shaurene]

Here we go again. Trump and congres will not do anything to control of any and all Americans have the right to own as many guns as they want. The constitution says they can. To many high ups have a lot of money invested in weapons company's. Money is 100% the most important thing to them.

they really do not give a shit when some nut case goes on a turkey shoot.

To much fast foods and Coca Cola infecting their little brains.

Congres will tell Trump what to do, and that will be to turn a blind eye.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, pattayadon said:

What can you change?

Are you serious?