Wife wants to buy a condominium in Bangkok, lives in United States, Thai bank wants income documents notarized.

[radiochaser]

Wife wants to buy a condominium in Bangkok, lives in United States, Thai bank wants income documents notarized.

 

I need some advice regarding getting a mortgage loan for purchase of a condominium in Bangkok.  My wife is a United States citizen of Thai decent.  We live in the United States.  My wife has a successful business generating a good income and will be the primary on the loan documents with myself as the secondary.    I have a good retirement income.  

At this point, my wife has sent documentation of income to a bank in Bangkok.  The bank asked that she has the income verification notarized.   My wife spoke to a Thai Consulate employee asking about the proper way to have the documents notarized for the bank in Bangkok and the Consulate employee told her, she needs the documents notarized by the "Secretary of State"!   I find this to be unusual.   If we were in Thailand, I would think that would mean going to the American Embassy for the notary services, but our current residence is in the United States.    

I think that we can go to a local Notary Public in our state of residence.  We show the Notary Public the documents for our income and a document affirming that the bank and tax records we are providing to the bank in Thailand are true and correct, sign the document of affirmation in the presence of the Notary Public, who will then notarize our signatures.  

Hopefully someone on Thaivisa can give us advise about notarization of documents, a person who is more familiar with mortgage loans given by banks in Thailand with the following issues (to summarize):

> We are applying for a mortgage loan to purchase a condominium in Bangkok.
> The mortgage loan will be made by a Bangkok bank. 

> We live in the United States
> Income, which will be used to make payments on the mortgage loan is earned wholly within the United States.
> Documents showing income and our signature affirming the documents are true and correct, can be notarized in the United States by a state authorized Notary Public.
> Not be notarized by the "Secretary of State" or by a U.S. Government employee at the American Embassy, Bangkok!  

If clarification of any of the above is needed, please ask in reply. 

My thanks in advance for any help with this. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by radiochaser
To correct errors.

[trogers]

Does she carry a valid Thai ID card?

 

If not, she would be like any other foreigners, requiring to send foreign money into a Thai bank account to obtain an FET that covers the full assessed value of the condo unit.

 

No mortgage will be permitted.

[happylarry]

Sorry I dont have your answers but i was just wondering why your wife did not ask the bank what they require, why go to a third party. Maybe you do not have the experience of living in Thailand but a Thai person will never lose face by saying they “dont know”, and will make anything up. For instance if you ask where something is in a supermarket the assistant will always instantly say “no have” rather than go and find out, then you look in the next aisle and see it sitting on a shelf. Anyway as the previous poster said you probably wont get a mortgage anyway but i’d ask the bank directly what they need.

Good luck.

HL

[hawker9000]

I pretty much agree with trogers.  You can go with your notarization strategy (which is certainly reasonable) and see how far you get, but if your wife is not a Thai national at some point I think Bangkok Bank will finally wake up to that fact and stop the mortgage in its tracks.   So DON'T advance any funds of your own until you get some kind of commitment to fund the mortgage, and I have no idea what such a commitment from BB would consist of in Thailand.  As for the consulate employee's direction, that's a different issue and simply sounds like a typical Thai making stuff up to save face.   Good luck!

 

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, happylarry said:

a Thai person will never lose face by saying they “dont know”, and will make anything up.

Sort of like many of the farang who post on Thai Visa.

 

When it comes to losing face, that pretty much motivates a lot of the farang whining on TV

Edited November 10, 2017 by Suradit69

[Morch]

I clicked because on the topic menu, the abbreviated headline reads - "Wife wants to buy a condom..". Disappointed.

[KKr]

I'd be surprised if you will get a mortgage loan based solely on foreign generated income.
Usually, even in case a customer service person takes your application, the proposal will be stopped at compliance, or latest at the credit approval committee. 

[lagavulin1]

In Thailand I had my docs notorised at the Department of Internal Affairs in BKK. Possibly You have to get your State Department not The Secretary to notorise them. In the end it was only an office drone who signed mine.

 

[newnative]

       I can tell you from experience that every Thai bank I have ever dealt with is extremely strict and the employees have zero authority to bend the rules. I have had an account with Bangkok Bank for 7 years; the employees at the branch I use all know me.  Every time I want to withdraw money I have to bring my passport, which they make a copy of the photo page.  Lord knows what they do with all those copies.  I forgot my passport one time and even though I did have a copy of the photo page of the passport with me, they refused to allow me to make a small cash withdraw.  Even my Thai partner asking politely made no difference.

     Today, I wanted to take 1.5MB out of a bank account that I had with the Yellow bank.  I was at Central Festival but I had opened the account at the Yellow bank at Central Marina.  So, guess what--I was limited to taking only 1MB out of the account.  Why?  Who knows.  But, every bank seems to have ridiculous rules like this so, as one person noted, it's a good idea to check with any of the banks you are considering getting a mortgage with.

[Tracyb]

Notaries Public are certified/commissioned by the Secretary Of State in their jurisdiction (state) in which they reside and practice.  I once made a mortgage with Bangkok Bank in Singapore for a condo in Bangkok while living in the USA.  They accepted documents that I had notarized by a Notary Public in California.  The actual closing took place in Bangkok at the bank's attorney's office......  You will need got check about whether you need to be present in Thailand to close this transaction.  

[digger70]

Wouldn't there be better investment properties in the US than Thailand? I wouldn't go for this for sure(that's me )

[trogers]

51 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Wouldn't there be better investment properties in the US than Thailand? I wouldn't go for this for sure(that's me )

In the words of Warren Buffett, flee when others are rushing in, and rush in when others are fleeing.

 

People are still rushing in, in Bangkok, while the people are starting to flee in USA.

[csabo]

Expect every business transaction to snag or fail at any time for any reason in Thailand. That goes for buying fruit to buying condos. Don't get sucked in to the nonsense responses either. In this case I would go to a local free notary and get them to notarize the docs and submit them then wait for the next denial or illogical response. Keep doing that until you hit a solid brick wall. It's a lesson in Thai style you need to get under your belt before going much further. Also, Thai decent means nothing. Either she has legal status here or not. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by csabo

[Monomial]

If you are not going to appear in person at the US Embassy in Bangkok to do the notarization, then you will need to get the document apostilized by the Secretary of State in the USA. The Thai Embassy in the USA has no legal basis for accepting a US notary. The Hague Treaty requires the notarization be apostilzed by the US federal government, and then that apostilization can be stamped by the Thai Embassy.

 

This is a standard process which is always used for international documents. There are services in Washington DC which will handle this for you.

 

Please see this website for more information:

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/judicial/authentication-of-documents.html

 

Again, only an apostilized document can be accepted by international treaty. A local notary from the USA is meaningless by itself. The state department has to attest that the notary is acceptable, and only with that apostilized seal can the Thai Embassy certify the document.

 

If you don't want to deal with this, just have your wife fly to Bangkok and do the notarization at the US Embassy here. Otherwise just accept the inconveniences of international treaties.

 

Edit:

 

Here is a direct link to the competent authorities to apostille a document notarized from a notary public in a particular state. It is reachable from the above link, but buried.

 

https://www.hcch.net/en/states/authorities/details3/?aid=353

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Monomial

[radiochaser]

On 11/9/2017 at 1:21 AM, trogers said:

Does she carry a valid Thai ID card?

 

If not, she would be like any other foreigners, requiring to send foreign money into a Thai bank account to obtain an FET that covers the full assessed value of the condo unit.

 

No mortgage will be permitted.

Yes, my wife is a Thai citizen, with both Thai ID card and passport.

 

Thank you.

[radiochaser]

On 11/10/2017 at 1:27 AM, hawker9000 said:

I pretty much agree with trogers.  You can go with your notarization strategy (which is certainly reasonable) and see how far you get, but if your wife is not a Thai national at some point I think Bangkok Bank will finally wake up to that fact and stop the mortgage in its tracks.   So DON'T advance any funds of your own until you get some kind of commitment to fund the mortgage, and I have no idea what such a commitment from BB would consist of in Thailand.  As for the consulate employee's direction, that's a different issue and simply sounds like a typical Thai making stuff up to save face.   Good luck!

 

Thanks for the advice. It did not occur to me to ask my wife if she would make a down payment for the condo, if that is what you mean. 

 

I just assumed she was applying for a mortgage loan for the full amount of the selling price. I will ask her about that. 

[radiochaser]

On 11/9/2017 at 11:59 PM, happylarry said:

Sorry I dont have your answers but i was just wondering why your wife did not ask the bank what they require, why go to a third party. Maybe you do not have the experience of living in Thailand but a Thai person will never lose face by saying they “dont know”, and will make anything up. For instance if you ask where something is in a supermarket the assistant will always instantly say “no have” rather than go and find o thut, then you look in the next aisle and see it sitting on a shelf. Anyway as the previous poster said you probably wont get a mortgage anyway but i’d ask the bank directly what they need.

Good luck.

HL

The only third party is a close family friend, who is very trustworthy.  My wife is in contact with her when necessary.  

 

It is the bank that is requiring the documents to be notarized.  

 

I have been to Thailand multiple times overe the last 30 years, so have some expereience there.  I was staying in a Thai Police apartment up till my last visit this year.  But due to the police officer retiring, he has given up the apartment.  That is one reason that my wife wants the condo.  So I will have a place to stay when I visit again.  

[radiochaser]

On 11/10/2017 at 2:44 AM, Morch said:

I clicked because on the topic menu, the abbreviated headline reads - "Wife wants to buy a condom..". Disappointed.

Well, I did ask her to buy some one time.  She told me, you buy em, I am too busy!

[radiochaser]

On 11/10/2017 at 2:59 AM, KKr said:

I'd be surprised if you will get a mortgage loan based solely on foreign generated income.
Usually, even in case a customer service person takes your application, the proposal will be stopped at compliance, or latest at the credit approval committee. 

We will see.  One problem my wife brought up was she had closed here bank account, so the moeny would not be taken by the government I think, and moved it into her neices account  That account is active with deposits and withdrawals, the family friend making withdrawals as needed for family in Thailand. 

 

 

[radiochaser]

On 11/10/2017 at 5:20 AM, lagavulin1 said:

In Thailand I had my docs notorised at the Department of Internal Affairs in BKK. Possibly You have to get your State Department not The Secretary to notorise them. In the end it was only an office drone who signed mine.

 

We are in the United States.  We will travel to Thailand only if the bank authorizes the loan to sign all the paper work for the loan.  

 

That is contingent on the bank accepting the Notary Public's stamp and giving her the loan, which she wants me to sign too.

[radiochaser]

On 11/10/2017 at 7:00 AM, digger70 said:

Wouldn't there be better investment properties in the US than Thailand? I wouldn't go for this for sure(that's me )

I have that already here.  The purchase there is not so much an investment as a place to stay when in Thailand that is near hospitals, family and friends and the airport.  

[radiochaser]

On 11/10/2017 at 6:31 AM, Tracyb said:

Notaries Public are certified/commissioned by the Secretary Of State in their jurisdiction (state) in which they reside and practice.  I once made a mortgage with Bangkok Bank in Singapore for a condo in Bangkok while living in the USA.  They accepted documents that I had notarized by a Notary Public in California.  The actual closing took place in Bangkok at the bank's attorney's office......  You will need got check about whether you need to be present in Thailand to close this transaction.  

That is good information.  I am not in California, I live in Pennsylvania, so our notary may well be accepted.  

 

As I posted in one response, we will travel to Thailand if the loan is authorized to sign the documents and what ever else would need to be done to make the close. 

[radiochaser]

On 11/11/2017 at 2:11 AM, csabo said:

Expect every business transaction to snag or fail at any time for any reason in Thailand. That goes for buying fruit to buying condos. Don't get sucked in to the nonsense responses either. In this case I would go to a local free notary and get them to notarize the docs and submit them then wait for the next denial or illogical response. Keep doing that until you hit a solid brick wall. It's a lesson in Thai style you need to get under your belt before going much further. Also, Thai decent means nothing. Either she has legal status here or not. 

Yes, that is just what is going on now.  Do something, then there is some other hurdle to jump.  

 

And you are right, Thai decent could mean she is third generation born in the United States of alll thai decent.  But as I stated in one response, my wife has both Thai ID and Passport, as well as being a natrualized American.  

 

Too bad it isn't that easy to get a Thai citizenship!

[radiochaser]

21 hours ago, Monomial said:

If you are not going to appear in person at the US Embassy in Bangkok to do the notarization, then you will need to get the document apostilized by the Secretary of State in the USA. The Thai Embassy in the USA has no legal basis for accepting a US notary. The Hague Treaty requires the notarization be apostilzed by the US federal government, and then that apostilization can be stamped by the Thai Embassy.

 

This is a standard process which is always used for international documents. There are services in Washington DC which will handle this for you.

 

Please see this website for more information:

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/judicial/authentication-of-documents.html

 

Again, only an apostilized document can be accepted by international treaty. A local notary from the USA is meaningless by itself. The state department has to attest that the notary is acceptable, and only with that apostilized seal can the Thai Embassy certify the document.

 

If you don't want to deal with this, just have your wife fly to Bangkok and do the notarization at the US Embassy here. Otherwise just accept the inconveniences of international treaties.

 

Edit:

 

Here is a direct link to the competent authorities to apostille a document notarized from a notary public in a particular state. It is reachable from the above link, but buried.

 

https://www.hcch.net/en/states/authorities/details3/?aid=353

 

Thank you for the link. 

[radiochaser]

Hopefully, we have figured out who the "Secretary of State" is.  Not the United States Secretary of State", but it may be a reference to the, in our case,  "Commonwealth of Pennsylvania" authorized Notary Public.  

Off to New York City to talk to them. 

"***Required Documents

              1. Legalization Petition Form (download form)

             2. The original documents needs to be notorized and sealed by a Notary Public.

             3. The said Notary Public's seal and signature must be authenticated and signed by the Secretary of State, in which the Notary Public is located. 

             4. A copy of the sealed documents for filing."

[trogers]

3 hours ago, radiochaser said:

Hopefully, we have figured out who the "Secretary of State" is.  Not the United States Secretary of State", but it may be a reference to the, in our case,  "Commonwealth of Pennsylvania" authorized Notary Public.  

Off to New York City to talk to them. 

"***Required Documents

              1. Legalization Petition Form (download form)

             2. The original documents needs to be notorized and sealed by a Notary Public.

             3. The said Notary Public's seal and signature must be authenticated and signed by the Secretary of State, in which the Notary Public is located. 

             4. A copy of the sealed documents for filing."

Secretary of State of the US is called Foreign Ministry here. 

[radiochaser]

Thanks to  all  who offered advice on this subject.    

 

We found we needed to go to the Prothonotary  office of the the Pennsylvania State Government.  That is about 2.5 hours drive from where we live.  Good thing I don't live in the extreme northwest corner of Pennsylvania.  

And for those that are interested in such things:

 

pro·ton·o·tar·y

ˌprōdəˈnōdərē/

noun

historical

noun: prothonotary

1. a chief clerk in some courts of law, originally in the Byzantine court.

Origin

late Middle English: via medieval Latin from late Greek prōtonotarios, from prōtos ‘first’ + notarios ‘notary.’