Poor really are getting poorer in Thailand

[theguyfromanotherforum]

I am not a Thailand specialist, but I can see both arguments here.

 

For example, when I go to my wife's village, most of them seem to live really poor, but behind the scenes they are loaded on properties and land that gives them income.

 

On the other hand I am in Canada at the moment and I see these supposed "poor" people in their motorised chairs provided by the government leisurely sipping coffee at the mall. Sorry, but having income under certain level, but still having housing and bare essentials provided by the government where you know for a fact you won't be hungry tomorrow does not make you poor.

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

The Thai land registry has the data on the transfer of land from small farmers to businesses and absentee landlords. 

 

Academics seeking access to this data to research the transfer of land and wealth are told to go whistle.

 

 

[halloween]

11 hours ago, Dave67 said:

What a total load of bull shit. The rich employer's rates of pay are similar to slavery hence they encourage mass immigration. 

Have you noticed that the immigration is TO Thailand, not from?

[JAG]

An internet forum?
 
"It must be true, I saw it on a website..."
 

 No.

Maybe I was not clear. It was an ironic comment on the claim that poverty was exaggerated...

Sent from my KENNY using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Happyman58]

11 hours ago, pornprong said:

Thais are very discriminatory in their employment processes.

It is very hard for those outside the system to get into the system, even into lowly positions and once you reach a certain age your employment prospects drop to zero.

Yeah i can see the system alright  Dont worry the wife has a step daughter  Laziest person god ever put breath into At 21 never worked a day in her life  Mum just feeds her the money Is that the system? Just trying to work out ? Which is more lower ? Going through Rubbish bins or waiting on Tables? So you are saying around 40 Thais never have  a chance to find a job? Is that why you see so many young people working in shops and not older and see older people laying around doing nothing? At 40 wow Can see now why Thailand has no unemployment benefits The whole country would be on it and be broke

[Happyman58]

13 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

Or was it to help sustain the building of new condos, hotels, factories, etc.

 

All of which create jobs for Thai people, taxes and economic wealth.

 

You seem to be viewing things at the micro level of the worker -v- the employer.

 

There are often much bigger, macro decisions to consider, especially in a developing country.

I will say this I always thought The dutch were the laziest workers i have ever seen  snobbish  to do lower paid jobs Like dishwasher  road sweepers etc That is why they imported the Molocans from Indonesia to do this kinda work Here they import workers from Burma etc  Why ? Only one reason Thais hate work Sooner starve

[pornprong]

 

1 minute ago, Happyman58 said:

I will say this I always thought The dutch were the laziest workers i have ever seen  snobbish  to do lower paid jobs Like dishwasher  road sweepers etc That is why they imported the Molocans from Indonesia to do this kinda work Here they import workers from Burma etc  Why ? Only one reason Thais hate work Sooner starve

Only one reason......so that companies can underpay and mistreat the undocumented foreign workforce.

[Happyman58]

12 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Would anyone give someone a job in a restaurant if they were covered in shit and foul smelling, or should they pop home and have a shower and put on their new suit an apply for a job?

See the funny side to that Dave  Now i know the reason why they dont apply To lazy to go home and have a shower and dont own a suit Thanks

[champers]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Have you noticed that the immigration is TO Thailand, not from?

You do need to factor in the many Thais that do go to work abroad and send money home. I don't know how many that would add up to but examples include: construction workers in Singapore and the Gulf states, fruit pickers in Israel, hotel and restaurant employees accross the globe, sex industry workers, massage shop workers.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed. 

[Happyman58]

3 minutes ago, pornprong said:

 

Only one reason......so that companies can underpay and mistreat the undocumented foreign workforce.

You may be right But what is stopping the gov saying to these companies Ok Thais get first preference for the unskilled jobs  Set up a dep where Thais can go and say " Hey  we applied and they said no for no reason" Be interesting to see that 

[Happyman58]

5 minutes ago, champers said:

You do need to factor in the many Thais that do go to work abroad and send money home. I don't know how many that would add up to but examples include: construction workers in Singapore and the Gulf states, fruit pickers in Israel, hotel and restaurant employees accross the globe, sex industry workers, massage shop workers.

What do you think be the highest paid job you just mentioned in your list

[halloween]

3 minutes ago, champers said:

You do need to factor in the many Thais that do go to work abroad and send money home. I don't know how many that would add up to but examples include: construction workers in Singapore and the Gulf states, fruit pickers in Israel, hotel and restaurant employees accross the globe, sex industry workers, massage shop workers.

OK factored in. The overwhelming movement is still TO Thailand. The wages offered are attractive to OTHER poverty stricken people, but apparently not to Thais.

[champers]

I don't have any statistics to say what the nett figure would be. Do you?

[champers]

4 minutes ago, Happyman58 said:

What do you think be the highest paid job you just mentioned in your list

I don't know. Pray tell.

[Happyman58]

34 minutes ago, champers said:

I don't know. Pray tell.

Oki leave it to your imagination 

 

[amvet]

8 hours ago, StayinThailand2much said:

While almost all Thais own a smartphone these days, including most teenagers, quite a few (of the adults) seem to finance the purchase via credit card debt. 

Only 40% of Thais own smartphones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_smartphone_penetration

[amvet]

3 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Are you suggesting people don't own the smartphones they go online with!

No.  I am saying only 40% of Thais own smart phones according to the latest information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_smartphone_penetration

[amvet]

8 hours ago, Sid Celery said:

Interesting implications to the statement.

 

It necessarily follows the argument you suggest that we shouldn't do anything about gun crime in TL because there is more gun crime in USA. We shouldn't bother doing anything about HIV/AIDS in TL because the incidence of HIV/AIDS is higher in Uganda. No point China engaging in space research because the USA has gone further already.

 

The argument is, in my opinion, moot, designed only to perpetuate the inequality that exists, on the sole basis that there are other countries who have managed the inequality even more poorly, probably for even more unworthy reasons and objectives.

 

In other words, friend, I am unpersuaded by your protestations, though of course, you are entitled to make them.

I think the implications of the Gini coefficient are that Thailand like many other countries has found a way to control and influence the poor to hide the fact that the rich are getting richer.  I think this says the Thai people no better informed than the people of the USA, China and Singapore.

[halloween]

1 hour ago, champers said:

I don't have any statistics to say what the nett figure would be. Do you?

Just for you. figures for 2009/10,  ~3.5 million foreign workers, ~1million Thais residing o/s (and that would include dependents).

http://publications.iom.int/system/files/pdf/tmr_2011.pdf

[seahorse]

It's not just Thailand.

[simoh1490]

54 minutes ago, amvet said:

Only 40% of Thais own smartphones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_smartphone_penetration

Then we don't agree but there's no other reliable figures out there that I can easily find. I think perhaps one of the masks to the statistics is that used smartphones tend to remain in circulation longer in Thailand than in the West, handed down to younger family members and parents rather than being discarded and replaced entirely.

[Srikcir]

43 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Then we don't agree but there's no other reliable figures out there that I can easily find. I think perhaps one of the masks to the statistics is that used smartphones tend to remain in circulation longer in Thailand than in the West, handed down to younger family members and parents rather than being discarded and replaced entirely.

Add phones being "shared."

About 54% of the Thai population in 2016 were registered with Facebook.

https://tech.thaivisa.com/facebook-has-241-million-users-in-sea-37-million-in-thailand/14374/

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=thailand+population+2016&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=_SwSWtPeAYHpvgSY7pS4DQ

One smart phone may be used for multiple Facebook accounts.

[spidermike007]

This is happening in Thailand, no doubt. Government mismanagement, and continued indifference to average people is partly responsible. Sure, most have cell phones, and many have new cars. But, they are mortgaged to the hilt. And besides food, they cannot afford much else.

 

However this is not just happening in Thailand. It is happening worldwide. It is especially apparent in the US. The middle class, and the poor have been getting poorer for some time now. Inflation is significant, despite the weak denials, and the fake numbers on the part of the lying, thieving government. All the numbers they count, have nothing to do with the lives of the individual. Prices are going up for basics like rent, food, medicine, clothing, etc. Sure, the top 3% are doing very, very well. And the top 20% are comfortable. But, the rest? The quality of life is in US, is diminishing by the day. I know. I spend time there, and I have a business there. Consumer confidence is at an all time low. Lower even than just after the great recession, in my opinion. Home ownership is way down, over the last 30 years. And rent are skyrocketing. Right now, in West Los Angeles, a 2 bedroom apartment, rents for between $2,500 and $4,500 per month. These staggering increases are swelling the homeless population. There are tents everywhere in LA now. Also, in my opinion alot of this is the Trump effect. Not all of it. Obama did little to inspire confidence. But the madman in chief is creating alot of uncertainty with his lack of coherent policy, and his complete inability to get Congress or the Senate to work with him. Hard to work with someone who insults you daily, via the infantile platform of twitter. And hard for a consumer to be confident, amidst all of the uncertainty. The last thing in the world this man brings to the table, is stability. 

[Lee4Life]

22 hours ago, Chris Lawrence said:

Just walk around the country areas and you will see it. 

That's not gonna work friend...I live in the country and don't see it.

[Gecko123]

When I think back 12 years to when I first moved to rural Thailand, I would definitely say there is more poverty nowadays. Yes, a handful of people have managed to buy a new pickup truck, but aside from that, people seem to have less disposable income. Very few new motorbikes, home improvements, or farm equipment, etc. Even the monk ordinations and wedding parties seem more modest than in the past. Sorry, but a smart phone is not much of a sign of affluence in my book. The erratic weather alone explains a lot (droughts, floods, more unpredictability of the weather.)

 

To the posters who claim that children pick up the slack and help out with their elderly parents in rural Thailand, true enough, but I just have to point out that many of these children are barely making enough to support their own hungry wife and kids, so in many cases there's not much charity being shown towards aging parents.

 

But the thing which absolutely petrifies me the most is what will happen after land reform kicks in. As I understand it, much government land will be converted to deeded property, and after a 5 year waiting period, this land will be able to change hands and be consolidated into, no doubt, the hands of the highest bidders, i.e., wealthy landowners and corporate agri-businesses who will be able to benefit from larger scales of operation, and greater mechanization). With land prices already sharply rising in anticipation of these changes, few small farmers will be able to add to their land holdings without massively increasing their household debt levels, which is already reportedly sky high.

 

In other words, small farmers and unlanded farm labor will be driven out, and will probably struggle to find employment in rural Thailand, forcing them to migrate to urban centers to find work. Small retail businesses which rely on these small farmers for their customer base will also suffer.

 

Rural farm workers, in terms of skill sets, are totally unprepared to make this transition. Nor will traditional urban job opportunities, (construction,  taxi drivers, tourism) be able to accommodate this massive influx of unskilled labor. This is why I believe the government is making a disastrous mistake of doing land reform before educational reform. Without educational reform, land reform is just a tinder box waiting to explode, and I fear will make current poverty levels seem moderate in comparison.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Gecko123

[halloween]

29 minutes ago, Gecko123 said:

When I think back 12 years to when I first moved to rural Thailand, I would definitely say there is more poverty nowadays. Yes, a handful of people have managed to buy a new pickup truck, but aside from that, people seem to have less disposable income. Very few new motorbikes, home improvements, or farm equipment, etc. Even the monk ordinations and wedding parties seem more modest than in the past. Sorry, but a smart phone is not much of a sign of affluence in my book. The erratic weather alone explains a lot (droughts, floods, more unpredictability of the weather.)

 

To the posters who claim that children pick up the slack and help out with their elderly parents in rural Thailand, I just have to point out that many of these children are barely making enough to support their own hungry wife and kids, so in many cases there's not much charity being shown towards aging parents.

 

But the thing which absolutely petrifies me the most is what will happen after land reform kicks in. As I understand it, much government land will be converted to deeded property, and after a 5 year waiting period, this land will be able to change hands and be consolidated into, no doubt, the hands of the highest bidders, i.e., wealthy landowners and corporate agri-businesses who will be able to benefit from larger scales of operation, and greater mechanization). With land prices already sharpy risingin anticipation of these changes, few small farmers will be able to add to their holdings without massively increasing their household debt levels, which is already reportedly sky high.

 

In other words, small farmers and unlanded farm labor will be driven out, and will probably struggle to find employment in rural Thailand, forcing them to migrate to urban centers to find work. Small retail businesses which rely on these small farmers for their customer base will also suffer.

 

Rural farm workers, in terms of skill sets, are totally unprepared to make this transition. Nor will traditional urban job opportunities, (construction,  taxi drivers, tourism) be able to accommodate this massive influx of unskilled labor. This is why I believe the government is making a disastrous mistake of doing land reform before educational reform. Without educational reform, land reform is just a tinder box waiting to explode, and I fear will make current poverty levels seem moderate in comparison.

2015 saw 369,000 pickups sold (quite a handful) and that is after the sales slump caused by PTP's 1st car scheme and the collapse of the rice scam.

The best way to keep a family poor is to give them a few rai of land and ask them to farm it. If you want to reduce poverty, especially rural poverty, the ONLY way is to get people out of small scale inefficient farming. It's called an agrarian revolution, and worked everywhere else.

Rural farm workers are totally unprepared to make this transition because they like the village lifestyle, and the handouts.  And their numbers mean politicians have to pander to them with money that could be better spent elsewhere.

 

[amvet]

20 minutes ago, halloween said:

2015 saw 369,000 pickups sold (quite a handful) and that is after the sales slump caused by PTP's 1st car scheme and the collapse of the rice scam.

The best way to keep a family poor is to give them a few rai of land and ask them to farm it. If you want to reduce poverty, especially rural poverty, the ONLY way is to get people out of small scale inefficient farming. It's called an agrarian revolution, and worked everywhere else.

Rural farm workers are totally unprepared to make this transition because they like the village lifestyle, and the handouts.  And their numbers mean politicians have to pander to them with money that could be better spent elsewhere.

In the States when they do this the farmers just rent out the land for cash and have someone else farm it.  Probably too sophisticated an idea for Thailand. 

[Sid Celery]

18 hours ago, wakeupplease said:

You have hit the nail on the head with this, nice people who make you welcome, yet suffer so much from the lack of amenities while others who do noting for the country take the riches and deliver the bull.

 

<snipped out the bits I wasn't commenting on>

Not sure about this, though I most certainly would have agreed with you once.

 

In my view, Thai people are generally not genuinely nice unless you are also Thai. They often strive to convey the impression, particularly if you're with a Thai significant other or someone else with whom the person you are talking to wishes to associate/ingratiate. One should not confuse 'niceness' with 'greng-jai', or 'ulterior motive', because if you do, then you will ultimately be disappointed when the mask comes off.. In most  cases, it's the latter of these.

 

Proof of the pudding: if you're with a Thai person while engaging with the 'nice Thai', see how quickly they move from 'being nice to you' mode to 'completely ignoring you' mode, or even 'looking down their nose at you because you aren't a proper (Thai) person' mode if the person you're with engages the person you're talking to.

 

I know it sounds like I'm down on Thais, but I'm not. I do however insist on knowing what's going on around me at all times, and I'm pretty good at reading verbal and non-verbal cues and discerning the underlying motives, emotions and thoughts (conscious or unconscious).

[Sid Celery]

7 hours ago, amvet said:

I think the implications of the Gini coefficient are that Thailand like many other countries has found a way to control and influence the poor to hide the fact that the rich are getting richer.  I think this says the Thai people no better informed than the people of the USA, China and Singapore.

I suspect you're right.