Thailand seeks to prosecute ousted PM Thaksin in absentia in two graft cases

[Baerboxer]

16 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Statute of limitations has long since expired, I believe.
Most nations do not permit post facto changes of legislation to impact previously accused individuals.
Forget any chance at all of Interpol co-operation in such a blatantly obvious witch hunt.
And what was that about getting some money back in lawyer's fees? Do you really think mR. Thaksin will even bother to respond, much less pay to "defend" against this peculiar action?
The extradition treaty with the Great Britain, for instance, specifically declines to move against individuals convicted in absentia if I read it correctly.
I think this is more "face saving" maneuvering , which in the 21st century global perception is perhaps more likely to look even more foolish.
My opinion is that the current regime would be best served by writing off their feud with the whole family and move on.
I wonder what the average Thai citizen thinks?

 

No, the statute of limitations hasn't expired. Adding fuel to the push for total amnesty in 2014. These cases could carry much greater sentences than the 2 years.

[Eric Loh]

15 minutes ago, robblok said:

There is not even a case against Prayut.

You think that he can be prosecuted. Let’s not kid ourselves. 

[Baerboxer]

2 minutes ago, Sid Celery said:

 

1. My history is not relevant to you creating straw men. Which I do wish you would stop doing. They're not even very good straw men...

 

2, Another straw man. I never said that. I don't know that, it's what I conclude from what is known.

 

3. And another one. A hat-trick if I'm not mistaken. I never said that either.

 

Sid.

 

Read your previous posts on this thread. You are now denying what you previously posted,

 

Would you like me to embarrass you and cut and paste them for you?

[Sid Celery]

1 minute ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Sid.

 

Read your previous posts on this thread. You are now denying what you previously posted,

 

Would you like me to embarrass you and cut and paste them for you?

 

Be my guest. Just be careful not to modify my words when you quote. I've met dishonest posters before, and anyway, as you rightly say, it's agin da rools.

Edited November 22, 2017 by Sid Celery

[Bill Miller]

5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

No, the statute of limitations hasn't expired. Adding fuel to the push for total amnesty in 2014. These cases could carry much greater sentences than the 2 years.

1. According to:

   Section Code: 0095 - 0101

    

   Criminal Code

   GENERAL PROVISIONS
   TITLE I
   PROVISIONS APPLICABLE TO GENERAL OFFENCES

    

   •  
   
   "Ten years in case of offences punishable with imprisonment of over one year up to seven years;"
   He was ousted in September of 2006, which means , per my comment, that the statute of limitations then in place had indeed expired, and explains why they rushed through a new law to try and weasel around that.
   It is generally referred to as an "ex post facto law" modification, and is usually not acceptable in Western jurisprudence.
   My only point being that the Thai government can pretty much forget any co-operation in re: any extradition proceedings, in addition to the conviction in absentia bit.

[Baerboxer]

1 minute ago, Bill Miller said:

1. According to:

   Section Code: 0095 - 0101

    

   Criminal Code

   GENERAL PROVISIONS
   TITLE I
   PROVISIONS APPLICABLE TO GENERAL OFFENCES

    

   •  
   
   "Ten years in case of offences punishable with imprisonment of over one year up to seven years;"
   He was ousted in September of 2006, which means , per my comment, that the statute of limitations then in place had indeed expired, and explains why they rushed through a new law to try and weasel around that.
   It is generally referred to as an "ex post facto law" modification, and is usually not acceptable in Western jurisprudence.
   My only point being that the Thai government can pretty much forget any co-operation in re: any extradition proceedings, in addition to the conviction in absentia bit.

 

When does the statute of limitations on a case start? Is it the date the alleged crime was committed?

[Bill Miller]

Just now, Baerboxer said:

 

When does the statute of limitations on a case start? Is it the date the alleged crime was committed?

Generally considered as the time when the crime became apparent. I would say that being kicked out of office and convicted in absentia is a pretty good prima facie indication that somebody somewhere intended an action, wouldn't you?
Again that all happened in September of 2006. It is now November of 2017.
More than the previous statutory prescription of ten years has passed, and I believe that is why the new law has been cobbled..
Most of European judicial systems do not allow that, and in addition would not permit conviction in absentia, which violates the second principle of natural justice, audi alteram partem (hear the other party).
Some judiciaries do permit it under certain conditions, which may be part of why he is not hanging out in, for instance, Italy. 
The statute of limitations is what will probably save Roy Moore's ass from a prison sentence for instance. The current SOL in Alabama, which is that there is no limitation, was changed after his alleged misconduct with a fourteen year old. The US Constitution is pretty specific that you cannot change the rules mid game.

[Bill Miller]

Non solis sed etiam... Thaksin has already been convicted and sentenced, in absentia, to two years in prison.
I am not going to bother looking up the "two cases", because it has already been settled legally IMO and I believe most of the world would agree.
There is a prescription in Thai law against double jeopardy, preventing one from being tried twice for the same offense.
On the surface it would appear they are trying to work around that as well, but I doubt, again, that any Western court would allow it.
The Thai government has already cast the die in this case and I do not understand why they are trying to revive it. Somebody really has a case of the ass for Thaksin, it would seem.
They could be trying to get their hands on the money, I guess.
I would think time and resources could be better allocated for constructive purposes, but I have to admit I have no understanding of the concept of "face" as viewed here. 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Baerboxer]

6 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Generally considered as the time when the crime became apparent. I would say that being kicked out of office and convicted in absentia is a pretty good prima facie indication that somebody somewhere intended an action, wouldn't you?
Again that all happened in September of 2006. It is now November of 2017.
More than the previous statutory prescription of ten years has passed, and I believe that is why the new law has been cobbled..
Most of European judicial systems do not allow that, and in addition would not permit conviction in absentia, which violates the second principle of natural justice, audi alteram partem (hear the other party).
Some judiciaries do permit it under certain conditions, which may be part of why he is not hanging out in, for instance, Italy. 
The statute of limitations is what will probably save Roy Moore's ass from a prison sentence for instance. The current SOL in Alabama, which is that there is no limitation, was changed after his alleged misconduct with a fourteen year old. The US Constitution is pretty specific that you cannot change the rules mid game.

 

Thaksin wasn't kicked out of office nor was he convicted in absentia. He had resigned the office of caretaker PM, and had then taken the job back, despite a new one being appointed, under no authority but his own. He was convicted of an abuse of power in the land case but fled before sentencing whilst on bail. Not convicted in absentia. In fact these cases have been held up because he's not been present to be charged in court which was the requirement prior to this new law.

 

So why would the statute of limitations be tied to those dates? 

[Baerboxer]

6 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Non solis sed etiam... Thaksin has already been convicted and sentenced, in absentia, to two years in prison.
I am not going to bother looking up the "two cases", because it has already been settled legally IMO and I believe most of the world would agree.
There is a prescription in Thai law against double jeopardy, preventing one from being tried twice for the same offense.
On the surface it would appear they are trying to work around that as well, but I doubt, again, that any Western court would allow it.
The Thai government has already cast the die in this case and I do not understand why they are trying to revive it. Somebody really has a case of the ass for Thaksin, it would seem.
They could be trying to get their hands on the money, I guess.
I would think time and resources could be better allocated for constructive purposes, but I have to admit I have no understanding of the concept of "face" as viewed here. 

 

Wrong. He was convicted in person, never appealed, was sentenced having jumped bail and also never appealed the sentence. His lawyers were convicted of trying to bribe the judges though!

 

The other two cases have never been tried as he has been a fugitive and not available to appear for the initial court appearance to hear the charges. If you bothered to look them up, you'd see that; and also notice there are other outstanding cases not currently being pursued.

 

There are previous threads regarding the statute of limitation expiry dates of these serious cases, which from memory is a few years in the future. If you're interested, look them up. If your're not bothered then I'm certainly not going to do it for you.

[candide]

4 hours ago, Artisi said:

And Wiki of course is  100% valid, reliable,  and a source of all truths.  

There can be variations in the quality of wiki pages so it is necessary (1) to make sure that assertions are backed by reliable references and (2) that the page is not contradicted by other sources. In this particular page, all information is backed by relevant sources (it has been widely covered by the press and judgements have been published), and it is not contradicted by other reliable sources.

Now, of course, if you have another reliable source that provides a detailed account of the land sale case, for which Thaksin was convicted, that contradicts the facts exposed in the wiki page, pleas emlight us!

[the guest]

All smoke and mirrors. If they were serious, an international arrest warrant would have been issued long before. All assets seized here and elsewhere, all associates, friends, family arrested and thrown in jail. What has been done so far? Nothing!

[Srikcir]

26 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

There is a prescription in Thai law against double jeopardy, preventing one from being tried twice for the same offense

In practice not necessarily true.

I believe the Thai State has up to four opportunities to try someone for the same crime:

• Lower Court
• Court of Appeal
• Supreme Court
• Appeal the Supreme Court (albeit heard by the same court)

However, what is judicially "tricky" is that the prosecution can bypass the lower court and court of appeal trials to take a case directly to the Supreme Court. And now under new organic laws the Supreme Court can conduct its own investigations and present evidence in trial.

 

[pornprong]

11 hours ago, ramrod711 said:

This amendment is the best thing to happen in years. Prosecute the Red Bull heir in absentia and the flying monk and everyone else that thought the status quo would remain long enough for them to come back free as a bird when the statute of limitations expired. It may, I hope , lead to wealthy criminals thinking  before they act. I say wealthy because the poor don't have the option of jetting off to greener pastures.

Hahahaha you Junta lovers really are out there.

 

The amendment only applies to politicians - what makes you think that the Junta is interested in justice, they couldn't care less about the Red Bull kid or any other criminal with a bit a cash or family connections.

 

The only sentence worth reading in the above article:

 

Former commerce minister Watana Muangsook said the junta was damaging the country with politically motivated court cases.

 

Why is it so hard for you boys and girls to overcome your prejudice, bigotry and fascist leanings and see things for what they are?

[Bill Miller]

On 11/22/2017 at 2:31 PM, Baerboxer said:

 

Wrong. He was convicted in person, never appealed, was sentenced having jumped bail and also never appealed the sentence. His lawyers were convicted of trying to bribe the judges though!

 

The other two cases have never been tried as he has been a fugitive and not available to appear for the initial court appearance to hear the charges. If you bothered to look them up, you'd see that; and also notice there are other outstanding cases not currently being pursued.

 

There are previous threads regarding the statute of limitation expiry dates of these serious cases, which from memory is a few years in the future. If you're interested, look them up. If your're not bothered then I'm certainly not going to do it for you.

All of my comments are about the one trial in which yes, he WAS convicted in absentia, and yes, he WAS ousted from power:
Are you merely ignorant, or lying for no particular reason?

Search Results

Profile: Thaksin Shinawatra - BBC News - BBC.com

www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-pacific-13891650

1. Thailand's Ousted Prime Minister Shinawatra Flees Abroad: The Rest ...

   https://www.globalresearch.ca/thailands-ousted-prime...shinawatra-flees.../5607150

   Sep 3, 2017 - Thaksin Shinawatra was himself ousted from power in 2006 for similar charges of corruption and abuse of power. W

2. Thailand court ousts prime minister after abuse-of-power verdict - LA ...

   www.latimes.com/.../la-fg-thailand-prime-minister-yingluck-shinawatra-forced-out-20...

   1.  
   2.  

   May 7, 2014 - ... court on Wednesday ordered Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra to ... ousted former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who has lived in ...

The BBC profiles Thaksin Shinawatra, who despite living in self-imposed exile remains ... After more than five years in power, he was ousted in a military coup in .

Former Thai PM Thaksin found guilty of corruption | World news | The ...

https://www.theguardian.com › World › Thailand

1.  
2.  

Oct 21, 2008 - Thailand's former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra was today sentenced to two years' imprisonment in absentia over a corrupt land deal.
 

<<<<<Link to Bangkok Post removed: 

.26) The Bangkok Post and Phuketwan do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post or Phuketwan publications will be deleted from the forum.

These restrictions are put in place by the above publications, not Thaivisa.com
In rare cases, forum Administrators or the news team may use these sources under special permission.  >>>>
 

Ousted Thai PM Thaksin guilty of corruption - CNN.com

www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/10/21/thailand.thaksin/

1.  

Oct 21, 2008 - A Thai court has found deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra guilty of corruption, and sentenced him in absentia to two years ...

And several dozen other references, NOT from Wiki, that have the key words  "ousted" 
convicted in absentia.  etc.

Feel like an idiot yet, or are you one of the "I am right, the whole world is wrong" set?

Edited November 24, 2017 by metisdead
Edited to remove Bangkok Post content/link.

[Bill Miller]

51 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

In practice not necessarily true.

I believe the Thai State has up to four opportunities to try someone for the same crime:

• Lower Court
• Court of Appeal
• Supreme Court
• Appeal the Supreme Court (albeit heard by the same court)

However, what is judicially "tricky" is that the prosecution can bypass the lower court and court of appeal trials to take a case directly to the Supreme Court. And now under new organic laws the Supreme Court can conduct its own investigations and present evidence in trial.

 

Those are all appellate actions of the same charge, not a new trial.

[thaiguzzi]

22 hours ago, Sid Celery said:

I don't agree with any of that and I think you have money envy issues. This government will do anything short of committing mass suicide to get rid of the Shinawatras. Why? Because they know full well that its supporters only want to see agents of change disposed of in order to protect their own privilege. Prayuth has promised to see off the Shins and he hasn't been able to. Nor (I suspect) will he be able to. 

 

The sands of time are running very low for Mr Prayuth and he knows it, so he's becoming increasingly desperate. He wants to retrospectively convict Thaksin, not as a victory over Thaksin, but in the forlorn hope that his supporters will be disillusioned with Thaksin and think that the good general is, after all, a jolly good egg and worth voting for. Good luck with that buddy, the expression 'if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck then its a duck' was made for Prayuth, only people don't think he's a duck.

 

I suppose we'll see if the strategy is successful or not but I suspect it won't be. I suspect the majority of people would just as soon see Prayuth dangling at the end of a rope as see Thaksin convicted without due process. As would I.

 

 

Indeed.

All the old vote buying malarkey stories of Red Shirt provinces, ie 500 baht, 1000 baht per household paid blah blah.

 Anyhow... I guarantee you one thing, up here in the NE, Mr. P could offer each household 10,000 baht, nay every adult over the age of 25, 10,000 baht,  hypothetically, and he would get the worst losses in results in history. Guaranteed.

[Sid Celery]

9 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

 

Indeed.

All the old vote buying malarkey stories of Red Shirt provinces, ie 500 baht, 1000 baht per household paid blah blah.

 Anyhow... I guarantee you one thing, up here in the NE, Mr. P could offer each household 10,000 baht, nay every adult over the age of 25, 10,000 baht,  hypothetically, and he would get the worst losses in results in history. Guaranteed.

Not sure about the numbers given the hunger of Thais in general for money, but the principle I readily agree with. I also live in Isaan, and in my village there are reportedly perhaps a dozen yellow supporters who might vote for the army. The problem is, nobody knows who they all are, one or two perhaps but the rest keep their gobs shut. Wisely.

 

So much for the junta-huggers on TV. a minority they may be but loud, so very loud. Still, empty vessels and all that. Personally speaking, I believe Prayuth will find reasons not to hold an election in 2018, such is (I believe) his dread of what's going to happen to him at the hands of the redshirts. Talking to a couple of the leading lights in my district recently, I do believe they have been pushed beyond the limits of their testicular deficit and are now experiencing a resurgence of testosterone.

[thaiguzzi]

3 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Statute of limitations has long since expired, I believe.
Most nations do not permit post facto changes of legislation to impact previously accused individuals.
Forget any chance at all of Interpol co-operation in such a blatantly obvious witch hunt.
And what was that about getting some money back in lawyer's fees? Do you really think  Mr. Thaksin will even bother to respond, much less pay to "defend" against this peculiar action?
The extradition treaty with  Great Britain, for instance, specifically declines to move against individuals convicted in absentia if I read it correctly.
I think this is more "face saving" maneuvering , which in the 21st century global perception is perhaps more likely to look even more foolish.
My opinion is that the current regime would be best served by writing off their feud with the whole family and move on.
I wonder what the average Thai citizen thinks?

The average Thai Citizen would welcome Mr T back with open arms.

The average Thai Citizen hates Mr P more by the day, week, month.

Both Mr T and Mr P know this.

[thaiguzzi]

2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

Non solis sed etiam... Thaksin has already been convicted and sentenced, in absentia, to two years in prison.
I am not going to bother looking up the "two cases", because it has already been settled legally IMO and I believe most of the world would agree.
There is a prescription in Thai law against double jeopardy, preventing one from being tried twice for the same offense.
On the surface it would appear they are trying to work around that as well, but I doubt, again, that any Western court would allow it.
The Thai government has already cast the die in this case and I do not understand why they are trying to revive it. Somebody really has a case of the ass for Thaksin, it would seem.
They could be trying to get their hands on the money, I guess.
I would think time and resources could be better allocated for constructive purposes, but I have to admit I have no understanding of the concept of "face" as viewed here. 

Reconciliation?

Yeah right!

[Sid Celery]

21 minutes ago, thaiguzzi said:

Reconciliation?

Yeah right!

Reconciliation was the lipstick put on the pig of managing the succession. The Prayuth story is nothing about reconciliation, it's all about preserving power and guaranteeing revenue streams for the people who agreed to support Prem for the second time. Someone needs to be shot or hanged for treason, this nonsense, the Thailand disease of armed insurrection, needs to stop.

 

I saw someone else comment a while back, that the only way to prevent future coups and more anti-democratic outrages like the removel of the plaque, is to make sure everyone understands that ther penalty for doing it is so awful as to present an extremely unattractive picture of doing it. .

 

I fully agree. As much as the death penalty is abhorrent, there needs to be a horrible example set, one that is going to be understood from the very bottom of Thai constitutional society to the very top.

 

All generals involved with the coup must be tried for treason and dealt with accordingly. All members of the administrative bodies (NLA etc) who took money from the Thai people for enabling the oppression of the Thai people must be fired, assets confiscated and blacklisted from working again or banished from Thailand. Thais do not need these people.

 

And then attention must be paid to the donors...

 

It won't happen of course, but dreaming can be useful.

 

Edited November 22, 2017 by Sid Celery

[JAG]

8 hours ago, steven100 said:

Living in exile in luxury while most Thais are looking for their next meal ....   disgusting ...  !! 

Umh, I thought, from reading your many posts, that most Thais are prospering under the junta's rule, that everyone is more prosperous, and everything in the garden is rosy?

 

Have I misunderstood?

 

It may be that some mutterings of discontent in the market this morning were drowned out by the ululations of the fruit and veg ladies enthusing constantly about the new Sino Thai High-Speed Railway, conversations which if I recall you were reporting on another thread this morning?

[amdy2206]

What a waste of time, money and space some of these people are. What do they hope to achieve except wasting money sorely needed by some sections of the population. He will never be back so why bother. Maybe it is just to draw attention away the other bad management of the country. They can't get hold of Mr. Red Bull so how do they expect to get hold of Taksin?

[Artisi]

17 minutes ago, JAG said:

Umh, I thought, from reading your many posts, that most Thais are prospering under the junta's rule, that everyone is more prosperous, and everything in the garden is rosy?

 

Have I misunderstood?

 

It may be that some mutterings of discontent in the market this morning were drowned out by the ululations of the fruit and veg ladies enthusing constantly about the new Sino Thai High-Speed Railway, conversations which if I recall you were reporting on another thread this morning?

Around our way it's all about submarines, fighter planes etc. No time for mundane things like politics or Thaksin /YL court cases or appearances. Just the true nitty- gritty stuff. 

[Redline]

I think Thaksin and Clinton should hook up

[steven100]

17 hours ago, Sid Celery said:

As I recall, Potjaman did not bid in an auction, she submitted an offer after the auction failed. Might be wrong but that's what I recall.

 

Also as I recall, Thaksin signed approving the recommendation for purchase from the external selling agancy.

 

I doubt it was the first time someone had attempted to suborn the court. Thaksin must have had some reason to think it would be accepted (past history or a nod and a wink).

 

You have not shown he worked a flanker so the question is moot. Regrettably I am muh less vulnerable to suggestion and misdirection than most.

 

I think the case was serious but the conviction unsafe. Sorry I didn't rise to your misdirection again.

 

part from those points, you seem to have been pretty much on the money.

 

Last avatar? Whats an avatar? Oh I see... you're hoping the mods will see if I've been a member before. Try a direct message to one. Google 'ThaiVisa +moderator' - see whose name comes up most often. Try him. For the avoidance of doubt, I have not been a member previously and your post suggests that was wise of me.

another keyboard warrior located outside Thailand but here to save us all and have us believe Thaksin is honest and innocent. 

[steven100]

13 hours ago, thaiguzzi said:

The average Thai Citizen would welcome Mr T back with open arms.

The average Thai Citizen hates Mr P more by the day, week, month.

Both Mr T and Mr P know this.

I really think you need to get out more.

[JAG]

3 hours ago, steven100 said:

another keyboard warrior located outside Thailand but here to save us all and have us believe Thaksin is honest and innocent. 

Well you are forever telling us to leave, and then if someone who (you assume) is not here posts you complain.

 

Do try and make your mind up.

Edited November 23, 2017 by JAG

[steven100]

3 minutes ago, JAG said:

Well you are forever telling us to leave, and then if someone who (you assume) is not here posts you complain.

 

Do try and make your mind up.

oh Jag,  I know it's difficult to get use too ... but the general is here to stay.

[JAG]

1 minute ago, steven100 said:

oh Jag,  I know it's difficult to get use too ... but the general is here to stay.

That we already know to be your opinion.

 

Of course, it may be that the Thai People decide otherwise - juntas can have unpredictable endings.

 

Anyway, let's just say that I don't share your optimism (or enthusiasm).

 

By the way, it's "JAG" (my initials). Should make it easier for when you "dob me in" to your friends in green!