Dual Passport Problem / Overstay

[UKJASE]

Hi Guys, a friend of mine has a problem.  She is thai, but has a dutch passport too.  She arrived back to thailand about 11 months ago, and entered the Kingdom on her dutch passport.  She has not left the country since, and is now on about a 10 month overstay, on that entry stamp.  She wants to leave thailand, but is unsure how she should do it.
 

She wants to use her dutch passport entering the next country she goes to, but i said to her that if she leaves thailand on her thai passport, she would have to enter the next country on the same passport, else she wouldnt have the relevant exit/entry stamps, and that would flag up next time she entered thailand (she will use her thai passport next time to enter the kingdom i guess).
 

What should she do?  She plans on living here for a while, but wants to use her dutch passport so as to "keep it active", plus she can travel freely to europe on that passport.

[Mattd]

She may have to bite the bullet, leave on her Dutch passport and pay the 20,000 Baht overstay fine, it may result in a ban for entering Thailand on that passport, that doesn't matter, as next time she should enter on her Thai passport.

She should have gotten an extension of stay for one year based on being Thai, which would have avoided the overstay.

Golden rule for Thai passport holders, always enter Thailand on their Thai passport, there is no benefit on entering using a foreign passport and no issues with entering other countries using her Dutch passport.

[UKJASE]

10 minutes ago, Mattd said:

She may have to bite the bullet, leave on her Dutch passport and pay the 20,000 Baht overstay fine, it may result in a ban for entering Thailand on that passport, that doesn't matter, as next time she should enter on her Thai passport.

She should have gotten an extension of stay for one year based on being Thai, which would have avoided the overstay.

Golden rule for Thai passport holders, always enter Thailand on their Thai passport, there is no benefit on entering using a foreign passport and no issues with entering other countries using her Dutch passport.

Thanks Mattd..... could she not then, simply leave thailand on her thai passport and enter europe on her dutch passport? (thus avoiding the 20k overstay fine)

 

would this cause a problem when she returned to thailand on her thai passport, as she would have an exit thailand stamp, but no onward country stamp?

Edited November 28, 2017 by UKJASE

[Mattd]

Just now, UKJASE said:

Thanks Mattd..... could she not then, simply leave thailand on her thai passport and enter europe on her dutch passport? (thus avoiding the 20k overstay fine)

 

would this cause a problem when she returned to thailand on her that passport, as she would have an exit thailand stamp, but no onward country stamp?

In theory she could do this, it would mean that the overstay is never cleared though and it is technically not the correct thing to do.

Immigration rarely ask incoming Thai's regarding stamps from other countries, most dual citizens in Thailand leave and return on their Thai passports and enter / depart their destination on the other passport, especially if Europe.

[paz]

Have her bite the bullet if she wants, but whatever practice Immigration takes to punish rThais entering as foreigner is null and void, if she has the will of bring it to a judge (you have the right to have a judge actually decide on all overstay cases). All she has to do is flash her Thai ID card to anyone threatening. And her idea to "keep it active" is absurd, her Dutch citizenship cannot be taken away.

 

Finally, there is no check of  matching entry / exit stamps when travelling by air. You advice of using the same passport, etc is wrong.

[paz]

11 minutes ago, UKJASE said:

Thanks Mattd..... could she not then, simply leave thailand on her thai passport and enter europe on her dutch passport? (thus avoiding the 20k overstay fine)

She can try, but if the system has record of her previously leaving on Thai passport and not returning with it, there will be an incongruity and she will be back at square one. Ugly situation especially at the airport with (possibly) unfriendly officers and time ticking.

[UKJASE]

7 minutes ago, paz said:

Have her bite the bullet if she wants, but whatever practice Immigration takes to punish rThais entering as foreigner is null and void, if she has the will of bring it to a judge (you have the right to have a judge actually decide on all overstay cases). All she has to do is flash her Thai ID card to anyone threatening. And her idea to "keep it active" is absurd, her Dutch citizenship cannot be taken away.

 

Finally, there is no check of  matching entry / exit stamps when travelling by air. You advice of using the same passport, etc is wrong.

Thanks Paz.......  the reason she mentions the dutch passport and keeping it "active" is that the dutch dont allow dual passports she thinks.

 

Also Paz, your second response seems to contradict your first response......  You say all she need do is "flash her thai id card", but then in your second response you say "if the system has record of her previously leaving on Thai passport and not returning with it, there will be an incongruity and she will be back at square one. Ugly situation especially at the airport with (possibly) unfriendly officers and time ticking."

 

Or am i just not understanding what you mean?

 

Thanks again for helping mate :)

[steve187]

Are both passports in the same name

[paz]

Just now, UKJASE said:

Thanks Paz.......  the reason she mentions the dutch passport and keeping it "active" is that the dutch dont allow dual passports she thinks.

 

She's thinking too simply. Without any doubt she is Thai by birth, then acquired Dutch citizen by nationalization (marriage or residency).

In that case, The Netherlands cannot force her to renounce Thai Citizenship: 

In several situations you are not required to give up your original nationality.

• In some countries you automatically acquire the nationality of that country if you are born there. And it is up to every country to decide when their nationals lose their nationality. Greek and Iranian nationals, for example, cannot give up their nationality: it is not legally possible. In Morocco giving up your nationality is not accepted in practice.

https://www.government.nl/topics/dutch-nationality/dual-nationality

 

 

Then regarding your comment below. I meant her to show her Thai ID card and passport to any immigration office threatening to fine (or  Buddha forbids, arrest) for overstay according to the Immigration act, and make clear she will not pay. Becausethe entire act applies to foreigners only, but she is not. There is only one section in the Immigration act regarding Thai entering "illegally", I can point you to it if you want.

At the same time she can't go to any border post with Thai ID card and Passport, and expect that Immigration behaves according to her needs and situation. If there is red flag in the system it has to be sorted out with patience and reason.

 

Just now, UKJASE said:

Also Paz, your second response seems to contradict your first response......  You say all she need do is "flash her thai id card", but then in your second response you say "if the system has record of her previously leaving on Thai passport and not returning with it, there will be an incongruity and she will be back at square one. Ugly situation especially at the airport with (possibly) unfriendly officers and time ticking."

 

[Preacher]

The Netherlands does not allow dual citizenship, unless in certain circumstances.

The two important exceptions are:

- you have another nationality but also take on Dutch nationality as your spouse is Dutch

- you where born with two nationalities

[UKJASE]

50 minutes ago, steve187 said:

Are both passports in the same name

yes both names are the same

[FritsSikkink]

there is no keeping it active, it is either valid or expired. she should use her Thai passport entering and leaving Thailand and use her Dutch passport entering and leaving the Netherlands.

[LolaS]

my husband is Dutch, I am sorry, but I dont know how old is OP friend, but if it is same age as me, please be assure that Kingdom of Netherland DOESNT allow double citizenship...

 

also I dint understand why she didnt use one year rule for holders of thai card? it is better to pay 20000 or let Holland strip you off citizenship

[paz]

1 minute ago, LolaS said:

my husband is Dutch, I am sorry, but I dont know how old is OP friend, but if it is same age as me, please be assure that Kingdom of Netherland DOESNT allow double citizenship...

 

also I dint understand why she didnt use one year rule for holders of thai card? it is better to pay 20000 or let Holland strip you off citizenship

 

False. I think you have not read the above, so I will post and link again from the official ducth gov.t website:

 

• If you are married to a Dutch national, you may keep your own nationality. The same applies in the case of a registered partnership.

https://www.government.nl/topics/dutch-nationality/dual-nationality

[realenglish1]

 She can leave on her Thai passport and not use her other passport to enter Thailand again no need and yes she can enter the country of her foreign passport no problem

[paz]

13 minutes ago, realenglish1 said:

 She can leave on her Thai passport and not use her other passport to enter Thailand again no need and yes she can enter the country of her foreign passport no problem

The thing is, her Thai passport has no entry stamp or record, and with the (same) name+DOB, the system itself or the IO can easily find that she entered with a foreign passport. So I agree that she has to do the passport swap ASAP, but I don't think anyone can guarantee that will happen without issues. My suggestion is to find a friendly contact at a border immigration, apologize for the mistake, etc. 

Edited November 28, 2017 by paz

[007 RED]

OP… Your friend has got really herself into the fertiliser and unfortunately there is no quick fix solution to her problem.

 

As I understand it from your original post, she entered Thailand using her Dutch passport and has now overstayed 11 months.  Your friend is a Thai national and also holds a Thai passport.

 

Because your friend entered the Kingdom on her Dutch passport, Thai immigration will treat her as a foreign national, regardless of the fact that she is a Thai national and also holds a Thai passport.  Therefore, if she surrenders to immigration and leaves Thailand on her Dutch passport she is going to be liable to a 20K Baht fine plus a one year ban.  If she stays another month the ban will be increased to 3 years.

 

If she tries to leave using her Thai passport much will depend upon whether she has used it before to enter/leave the Kingdom.  If she used it to leave the Kingdom previously, then the moment the IO scans her passport they will see that your friend has never re-entered the Kingdom and the IO will be asking questions as to how/when she entered the Kingdom.  Odds are, she will have to then admit she entered on her Dutch passport and has overstayed – outcome fine & ban.

 

If your friend has never used her Thai passport previously to enter/leave the Kingdom she will be able to use it and leave without a problem.  However, she will not be able to return to Thailand using her Dutch passport (even a new one) as the moment the IO scans the passport the IO will see that your friend has a previous entry record but no record of leaving Thailand. This will trigger a lot of very awkward questions.

 

As someone has already suggested, she will have to bite the bullet and accept that she is going to be fined and get a banned stamp in her Dutch passport.  Next time she should use her Thai passport to enter the Kingdom.

[paz]

10 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Because your friend entered the Kingdom on her Dutch passport, Thai immigration will treat her as a foreign national, regardless of the fact that she is a Thai national and also holds a Thai passport.  Therefore, if she surrenders to immigration and leaves Thailand on her Dutch passport she is going to be liable to a 20K Baht fine plus a one year ban.  If she stays another month the ban will be increased to 3 years.

Do you realize that a Thai cannot be banned from Thailand? And that even if Immigration tries, no judge would "treat her as foreigner", in a court?

Using a foreign passport does not make anyone lose his citizenship, status, and rights!

Note, is not difficult to go to court, these are the "judge review" cases that usually last few minutes when over-stayers are caught then sent to IDC. Immigration does not have the last word, only the Judge has. If you are interested I can point you to the section in the Immigration Act that deals with Thais entering Thailand illegally.

[007 RED]

22 minutes ago, paz said:

Do you realize that a Thai cannot be banned from Thailand? And that even if Immigration tries, no judge would "treat her as foreigner", in a court?

Using a foreign passport does not make anyone lose his citizenship, status, and rights!

Note, is not difficult to go to court, these are the "judge review" cases that usually last few minutes when over-stayers are caught then sent to IDC. Immigration does not have the last word, only the Judge has. If you are interested I can point you to the section in the Immigration Act that deals with Thais entering Thailand illegally.

No need to shout! 

 

I am not suggesting that she will be banned from Thailand as a Thai National or that she will lose her citizenship.

 

The fact is that she used her Dutch passport to enter the Kingdom and hence the overstay ban will be placed in her Dutch passport which will prevent her from entering the Kingdom again using a Dutch passport for the duration of the ban.   She will, however, still be able to re-enter the Kingdom using her Thai passport.

 

Yes I would be very interested in what section of the Immigration Act BE2522 deals with Thais entering the Kingdom illegally.

[paz]

11 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Yes I would be very interested in what section of the Immigration Act BE2522 deals with Thais entering the Kingdom illegally.

Section 11. A person entering or exiting the Kingdom shall enter or exit through port of entry, immigration checkpoint, terminal area, station, or locality and at the prescribed times as published in the Government Gazette by the Minister.

 

Section 18. The competent official shall have power to inspect persons entering or exiting the Kingdom.

For this purpose, persons entering or exiting the Kingdom shall submit a list as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations, and shall be inspected and approved by the competent official assigned to the immigration checkpoint of that route.

 

Section 62 Whoever fails to comply with the provisions of Sections 11 or 18 paragraph two shall be punished by imprisonment not exceeding two years and a fine not exceeding twenty thousand baht.

If the person committing an offence under paragraph one is a Thai national, the offender will be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand baht.

Bold font used to highlight key concepts, not to to shout to anyone.

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by paz

[007 RED]

18 minutes ago, paz said:

Section 62 Whoever fails to comply with the provisions of Sections 11 or 18 paragraph two shall be punished by imprisonment not exceeding two years and a fine not exceeding twenty thousand baht.

If the person committing an offence under paragraph one is a Thai national, the offender will be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand baht.

 

Sorry to correct you, but the fine for a Thai National is also 20K Baht, they just don't get the possible 2 year imprisonment.

[paz]

13 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

Sorry to correct you, but the fine for a Thai National is also 20K Baht, they just don't get the possible 2 year imprisonment.

 

Nonsense. I quoted a translation of the law, should I quote the original in Thai? 

 

The only Thais that pay the fine as Foreigners are the ones that willingly subject themselves to the abuse by Immigration. A Judge would not impose that fine, in fact Immigration Judges routinely impose lesser fines than 20K.

Edited November 28, 2017 by paz

[realenglish1]

14 hours ago, paz said:

The thing is, her Thai passport has no entry stamp or record, and with the (same) name+DOB, the system itself or the IO can easily find that she entered with a foreign passport. So I agree that she has to do the passport swap ASAP, but I don't think anyone can guarantee that will happen without issues. My suggestion is to find a friendly contact at a border immigration, apologize for the mistake, etc. 

You have no idea  what you are talking about Of course her Thai passport has NO Entry Stamp For immigration purposes she does not need one She is a citizen  What your suggesting is that when the Department issues a passport they need an entry stamp ? She is a Thai citizen Get real dude

[Mattd]

1 minute ago, realenglish1 said:

You have no idea  what you are talking about Of course her Thai passport has NO Entry Stamp For immigration purposes she does not need one She is a citizen  What your suggesting is that when the Department issues a passport they need an entry stamp ? She is a Thai citizen Get real dude

What is being said is if she departed Thailand on her Thai Passport previously and has now entered Thailand on her Dutch passport, then there would be no record of her entering the country again, potentially raising a flag as to how she can be departing without first entering.

Only a potential issue, not a sure one.

[realenglish1]

2 minutes ago, Mattd said:

What is being said is if she departed Thailand on her Thai Passport previously and has now entered Thailand on her Dutch passport, then there would be no record of her entering the country again, potentially raising a flag as to how she can be departing without first entering.

Only a potential issue, not a sure one.

It is not an issue since immigration does not care about a Thai who entered the Kingdom They have a right to be here  So you are saying that immgration is going to say to this person Hey when was the last time you came into the country Com mon dude They do not care  98 % of passport holders probably  have never been outside of the country first time Immigration is totally irrelevant in this case

 

Lets say you are a Brit or American Do you thing they are going to  question you about when the last time you entered your respective country They don't care Get a grip this is a NON issue

[stevenl]

16 hours ago, LolaS said:

my husband is Dutch, I am sorry, but I dont know how old is OP friend, but if it is same age as me, please be assure that Kingdom of Netherland DOESNT allow double citizenship...

 

also I dint understand why she didnt use one year rule for holders of thai card? it is better to pay 20000 or let Holland strip you off citizenship

No problem at all with dual citizenship in the Netherlands.

[007 RED]

14 hours ago, paz said:

 

Nonsense. I quoted a translation of the law, should I quote the original in Thai? 

 

Before saying that someone’s post is “nonsense” and stating “I quoted a translation of the law, should I quote the original in Thai?”, you really need to get your facts correct and come down off that high horse.

 

You stated in Post No. 20 the following:

 

“Section 62

Whoever fails to comply with the provisions of Sections 11 or 18 paragraph two shall be punished by imprisonment not exceeding two years and a fine not exceeding twenty thousand baht.

If the person committing an offence under paragraph one is a Thai national, the offender will be punished by a fine not exceeding two thousand baht.”

 

In my Post No. 21, I pointed out that the fine for the Thai national is in fact 20,000 Baht and not two thousand (2,000) Baht as you had indicated.

 

The source of my information concerning the Immigration Act B.E. 2522 is derived from the opening page of this particular forum - Thai visas, residency and work permits forum.  Just scroll down to the information section entitled Laws, regulations, Police Orders, etc. and open it.  Then scroll down to No. 17 – Immigration Act B.E. 2522 English translation, and open the PDF.  You will then see that Section 62 states the following:

 

“Whoever fails to comply with the provisions of Section 11 or Para.2 of Section 18 shall be punished by imprisonment not exceeding two years and a fine not exceeding 20,000 Baht.

 

If the person committing an offense under Para.1, holds Thai citizenship he will be punished by a fine not exceeding 20,000 Baht”.

 

If you Google Thai Immigration Act B.E. 2522, you will see a number of other English translations of the Act and they all concur with what I have indicated that the fine shall not exceed 20,000 Baht.

 

No apology necessary – we all make mistakes.

[Jonmarleesco]

Without asking why she entered on her Dutch passport in the first place, she can use both passports, the Thai in and out of Thailand, the Dutch for other countries. That is the purpose and benefit in having two.

[Jonmarleesco]

2 hours ago, realenglish1 said:

You have no idea  what you are talking about Of course her Thai passport has NO Entry Stamp For immigration purposes she does not need one She is a citizen  What your suggesting is that when the Department issues a passport they need an entry stamp ? She is a Thai citizen Get real dude

Obviously she does when entering on the Thai passport. And if she left on it, having not entered on it, certainly questions would arise. 

[BritTim]

24 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

You will then see that Section 62 states the following:

 

“Whoever fails to comply with the provisions of Section 11 or Para.2 of Section 18 shall be punished by imprisonment not exceeding two years and a fine not exceeding 20,000 Baht.

 

If the person committing an offense under Para.1, holds Thai citizenship he will be punished by a fine not exceeding 20,000 Baht”.

I believe you are quoting the correct translation of Section 62. However, I do not think the penalties under Section 62 apply to overstays. They basically are concerned with illegal entry.

 

The penalties for overstay are addressed in Section 81, and are (I believe) only intended to apply to foreigners. I do not think it is possible for Thai citizens to actually be on overstay, unless they are denying their citizenship status. Entering Thailand using a foreign passport does muddy the waters, but I do not think a judge would uphold a fine applicable only to aliens once Thai citizenship was established.