U.S. Senate approves major tax cuts in victory for Trump

[Thaidream]

What a sad day for the American people. It is obvious that no one in the Senate read the bill and simply voted as a group.  It is also obvious that the Trump supporters on this board have not read the House bill which will have to be reconciled with the Senate. Neither the House or Senate version actually does much for the middle class or the poor.  The Congressional watchdog office estimates an average reduction for those who will get a reduction will be about $2.50 per day- that is really going to change some one's life? However, those that are wealthy will get huge decreases in their taxes

 

In addition, since Trump refuses to fully fund the ACA (Obamacare) there will be massive increases in healthcare costs for the poor and middle America. The wealthy won't care because they can use their huge tax savings to fund their Platinum Healthcare policies.

 

Trump supporters- you cannot possibly like this bill if you sit down and read the fine details. Business is already getting huge tax cuts by using the current tax code to avoid taxes. Now, they will bring back billions into the US and pay it out to shareholders and not invest it into the country and create jobs. If Trump really wanted to help the poor and middle class he would have raised taxes on the wealthy and redistribute those monies in tax credits to the poor and middle class so they could spend the funds on goods and services which would have spurred growth in jobs to meet the increased demand.

 

In addition, if Trump wanted to help the economy- he could have lowered the defense budget by at least $100 Billion and used these funds for a massive infrastructure project which would have added thousands of jobs.

 

Trump is fooling you who support him because none of you want to become educated on what he is really doing which is pandering to the alt right and the already wealthy in America. You listen to his bombastic verbiage  and fall for the line about fake news- where in reality everything Trump spouts is fake.He has done nothing for the common person and has no plans to do anything. He is destroying everything that America stands for and making America the laughing stock of the World. Making America Great Again?-  Trump's real plan is to make Trump  and his cabal richer than ever. And all of us-including the Trump supporters will be paying for it.

[Thaidream]

Just a few of the proposed changes in the tax code:

 

-Elimination of the deduction for State and Local Taxes- which will  hurt Americans in high tax states like New York and California- surprise- surprise- these states all voted Democrat.

 

-Elimination of the College Tax credit which has helped millions of moderate income Americans as a hedge against high University costs. In addition, elimination of the deduction for interest against loans used to send a child to University-

 

-Elimination of the Deduction for Medical costs- used by the poor and middle America to partially offset skyrocketing hospital and Pharma costs-  yet Trump refuses to fund Obamacare which will increase costs even more.

 

-Elimination of the  deduction for loss and theft- which again will hit the poor and middle class who have lost houses and cars due to natural disasters and thefts.

 

-Elimination of the personal exemption which means anyone with a large family will actually pay more in taxes-

 

Of course, when you file your taxes- they will be simpler  because those items in the tax code which would have helped the middle class and poor are being eliminated. At the end of the day- when you figure the gains versus the losses- most Americans in the middle class and the poor- will be much poorer because of this tax bill because costs will rise in the economy and there will be no way to get any offset.

[crazygreg44]

it makes complete sense to lower the tax burdens away from industry and enterprises, so they can more easily re- invest and expand their business . . . . . 

 

on the other side, economy growth will only set in when demand for their products rises.

 

So how will you rise demand ?

 

Both foreign and domestic demand?

 

Economic growth of enterprises without a rising demand just will make the riches richer and the middle class poorer

Edited December 3, 2017 by crazygreg44

[nausea]

Corbyn, in reverse.

[Jingthing]

25 minutes ago, crazygreg44 said:

it makes complete sense to lower the tax burdens away from industry and enterprises, so they can more easily re- invest and expand their business . . . . . 

 

on the other side, economy growth will only set in when demand for their products rises.

 

So how will you rise demand ?

 

Both foreign and domestic demand?

 

Economic growth of enterprises without a rising demand just will make the riches richer and the middle class poorer

The trumpists want to make the entire nation like KANSAS.

 

trickle down does not work.

It never has.

It never will.

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/06/as-voodoo-economics-fails-in-kansas-trump-takes-it-national.html

 

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by Jingthing

[Becker]

2 hours ago, FreddieRoyle said:

Well what has been happening is the government/state agncies has grown so bloated, with most of the money being thrown around and wasted. Realistically a tax rate should be about 0.5% tops and just cut spending to balance. Government should be a very small entity, serving the people not this monstrous entity making up balmy laws and even causing havoc around the world. 

Yes, those pesky civil servants running amok with their balmy laws and creating havoc around the world!!!

[Thaidream]

Yes, Obama contributed to a rising deficit. It was also Obama who saved  America from the worst economic meltdown since the Great Depression through letting the deficits rise. The only thing I would fault him on is that he did not go after the wealthy bankers and hedge fund managers who gambled with other peoples money and lost causing the meltdown.

 

Donald Trump on the other hand is rewarding  all the thieves with huge corporate tax cuts. The already wealthy CEO's  will get huge wage increases while the lowest people on the totem pole will be rewarded by getting more minimum wage jobs which will not pay their bills.  The Corporate World will bring back their wealth from offshore and distribute it to their stockholders and not put anything into wages and benefits for the workers. America operates on the slogan- Greed is Good- the problem is the greed comes off the backs of the middle class and the poor.  

 

Donald Trump is the ultimate Flim Flam Man- he will always tell you how great he and his plans are- but he can't produce for those who need it the most.  He will go down in history as the worst President ever..... He better start looking over his shoulder Mueller is getting closer and closer to him and when the obstruction charges are filed- Trump's cohorts in the Republican Party will abandon him like rats running from a sinking ship and vote impeachment and then he will resign before the conviction by the SEnate. Of course, he will say that he is doing it to save America from a savage political attack but he will do it because he is a coward who can't face the truth.

[simple1]

1 hour ago, crazygreg44 said:

it makes complete sense to lower the tax burdens away from industry and enterprises, so they can more easily re- invest and expand their business . . . . . 

 

on the other side, economy growth will only set in when demand for their products rises.

 

So how will you rise demand ?

 

Both foreign and domestic demand?

 

Economic growth of enterprises without a rising demand just will make the riches richer and the middle class poorer

Can anyone answer the question that with nearly full employment (4.1%?) how are the additional workers going to be sourced if "pass though" companies and corporates surprise some forecasters and actually invest in more workers. Additionally the Trump Administration is laying off thousands of Federal employees and reducing their pensions, how will they support themselves?

[boomerangutang]

12 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

It does make sense to drop the corporate tax rate and close loopholes; I think most knowledgeable people would agree.

What does not make sense is lowering the taxes on the wealthy at the expense of the less well-off. And getting rid of the estate tax is nothing more than a sop for the political donor class.

What has happened to the USA? In the past the US has been, despite all its faults, a model that other people could look up to and aspire to something similar. 

Now, bought politicians have voted to create a feral society where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

It is a sorrowful thing to watch...

Who says,  ".....close loopholes?" (in your opening sentence).

 

Even if there are any provisions for closing loopholes for the rich, they're easy to sail around.  The rich will keep spending on yachts, private jets, numbered accounts in other countries, ....it's just now, with this giant hand-out, they'll have a lot more mullah to play with.

 

Here's a partial list of US companies which paid zero taxes in 2015, despite having profits.

United Airlines
Continental Airlines
American Airlines
GM
Hewlett-Packard
PG&E
Xerox
Weyerhouser

 

Do you think they're going to fire their tax attorneys, and find new ones who will compel their corporations to pay their fair share of tax?  I don't think so. 

 

Also:  religious groups continue to be tax-exempt.  That includes Scientology and their incarcerations camps.

[metisdead]

A post containing an aberrant reference to Trump has been removed.  A post containing an intentional aberrant miss spelling of Obama's name has been removed as well as a reply.  If you do not want your post to be removed, spell people's names correctly. 

 

Posts containing profane acronyms have been removed:  
 
8) You will not post disruptive or inflammatory messages, vulgarities, obscenities or profanities.

 

A post commenting on moderation has been removed. 

[ilostmypassword]

Last-Minute Breaks for Developers, Oil Industry and Banks

In Senate Republicans’ mad dash to rewrite the tax code, lawmakers added loopholes for the wealthy and tightened deductions for middle-income workers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/02/business/tax-bill-offers-last-minute-breaks-for-developers-banks-and-oil-industry.html

[pegman]

21 hours ago, Berkshire said:

You Trump guys continue to vote against your own self-interest.  After a few years when it's clear that economic growth is not nearly enough to offset the deficit, how is the US gov going to pay for all these tax cuts?  One word--entitlements.  We're talking social security, medicare, federal/military pension, etc., all getting cut.  I hope you guys have a big nestegg. 

"Nest Egg"? Who needs a nest egg? They have guns and their bible. Let the super rich have all the money it's the new social contract there. Sprinkle in some cheap talk about the "American Dream" plus liberal dashes of race baiting and all's good. While these nit wits are bamboozled by Trump's lies about how he will be paying more tax truth is he will be making out like a bandit. Meanwhile the average/median adult in most industrial countries are a mile ahead of Yanks in terms of wealth.

Median Wealth in US$

USA.          $45k

Aust.          $220k

Italy.           $138k

UK.              $112k

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult

 

[Skeptic7]

On 12/3/2017 at 3:05 AM, Jingthing said:

The USA has been hijacked by a toxic combo of idiocracy, trollocracy, and KLEPTOCRACY. Give me the "swamp" any day over this. 
 

Not to mention theocracy...moved to the forefront from the back burner and put on HIGH.

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, pegman said:

"Nest Egg"? Who needs a nest egg? They have guns and their bible. Let the super rich have all the money it's the new social contract there. Sprinkle in some cheap talk about the "American Dream" plus liberal dashes of race baiting and all's good. While these nit wits are bamboozled by Trump's lies about how he will be paying more tax truth is he will be making out like a bandit. Meanwhile the average/median adult in most industrial countries are a mile ahead of Yanks in terms of wealth.

Median Wealth in US$

USA.          $45k

Aust.          $220k

Italy.           $138k

UK.              $112k

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult

 

You can play games all day with stats. This is a good one. The US is doing ok. Not perfect, but far from terrible.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(nominal,_Atlas_method)_per_capita

 

Please don't use the term yanks. It's derogatory and not appreciated.

[lannarebirth]

15 hours ago, simple1 said:

Can anyone answer the question that with nearly full employment (4.1%?) how are the additional workers going to be sourced if "pass though" companies and corporates surprise some forecasters and actually invest in more workers. Additionally the Trump Administration is laying off thousands of Federal employees and reducing their pensions, how will they support themselves?

 

You answered your own question.

[simple1]

2 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

You answered your own question.

No. Laid off federal office workers are not the answer

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

No. Laid off federal office workers are not the answer

 

I'm not sure why not but if not, perhaps they can find work in the "shadow" federal government.

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445230/federal-government-growth-continues-while-federal-employee-numbers-hold

[pegman]

2 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

You can play games all day with stats. This is a good one. The US is doing ok. Not perfect, but far from terrible.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(nominal,_Atlas_method)_per_capita

 

Please don't use the term yanks. It's derogatory and not appreciated.

Yes the USA is a wealthy country, no question of that. There is also no question that most of that wealth is concentrated in a very few hands. That is what explains why a country like  Slovenia,  with much lower income per cap,  has average/median wealth higher than in the USA. That is pathetic and not something to be proud of. Your country's average adult owns bugger all compared to other non-third world countries.

Why is that good?  How in hell is that link I provided "playing with stats". That's the kind of refrain heard on propaganda faux news sites like Fox and InfoWars that serve the USA rich so well. I suppose your responce means you are doing fine with your guns and bible. I much doubt you are one of those few at the top of the food chain.

Edited December 4, 2017 by pegman

[riclag]

I'll save $200 + on  eliminating accounting fee's by doing the post card filing . Love to see the companies come back and repatriate their money back in the USA and grow the economy.It will bring back jobs and give welfare recipients incentive to get a job!

 

[lannarebirth]

11 minutes ago, riclag said:

I'll save $200 + on  eliminating accounting fee's by doing the post card filing . Love to see the companies come back and repatriate their money back in the USA and grow the economy.It will bring back jobs and give welfare recipients incentive to get a job!

 

 

Stock markets are now pricing in that that money will be used for stock buybacks rather than Capex spending or expanding capacity. 

[riclag]

On 12/3/2017 at 8:53 AM, craigt3365 said:

You are aware the senators have no idea what they voted for. It was being written as they were voting and even after they voted. And you think that is good?

 

Politics at it's worst. Especially as it will significantly increase the US debt.

 

MAGA!

I watched the proceedings , before the vote . It was very entertaining . They all had amendments they introduced and voted on. I didn't see a amendment to clarify the 500 page reform bill .

[simple1]

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I'm not sure why not but if not, perhaps they can find work in the "shadow" federal government.

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445230/federal-government-growth-continues-while-federal-employee-numbers-hold

You may like to take at look at Federal Government projections dated 10/2017 for the period up to  2026.

 

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2017/article/projections-overview-and-highlights-2016-26.htm

[riclag]

40 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Stock markets are now pricing in that that money will be used for stock buybacks rather than Capex spending or expanding capacity. 

Guess what . The reality of not having to stress about  filling in all those papers and forms is worth $400 +

Edited December 4, 2017 by riclag

[ilostmypassword]

2 hours ago, riclag said:

I'll save $200 + on  eliminating accounting fee's by doing the post card filing . Love to see the companies come back and repatriate their money back in the USA and grow the economy.It will bring back jobs and give welfare recipients incentive to get a job!

 

This same lie about repatriated profits was at the center of the Bush tax bill of 2001. As later investigation showed, virtually none of the repatriated cash was used for investments or raising the wages of workers. Instead it was mainly used for stock buybacks and increased dividends. There is no shortage of liquidity now. Interests rates are very low. Corporations are flush with cash already in the USA. That fact is that if demand is there, corporations will invest or borrow to fuel expansion. If not, not.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed. 

[Thaidream]

This tax bill is not only horrid, it is one of the biggest scams I have ever heard of.  The Republicans  know damn well that this bill serves only big business and the wealthy and really does nothing for the middle class and certainly not the poor.

 

Have you noticed all Trump and his minions as well as Republican leaders are touting the bill as a 'win'. The truth is the win is for everyone except the middle class and poor. Had they really wanted to create a fairer system- they would have raised the taxes on the wealthy and returned this money back to poor and middle class in the form of tax credits. Instead the so called 'tax cuts'  for the poor and middle class may put about $2.50 per day in the pocket of the middle class and poor but put huge amounts of cash into the already wealthiest Americans bank account.

 

In addition- if they really wanted to help struggling seniors who on average live on about  $17,000 per year- they could have removed  the limit on  those getting Social Securiy before paying taxes and also provided all Medicare for free instead of deducting an amount from a retiree's Social Security. The tax code still requires some people on Social Security to combine their Social Security with any money made still working and then paying taxes again on this amount. Trump and his cabal could care less about Seniors as they are part of the poor and of no use to Trump.

 

The Trump supporters need to really educate themselves on what is going on in America and how Trump and his minions are destroying the middle class and creating more poor by redistributing wealth from those who make the lowest to the wealthy.

 

Forget about trickle down economics and don't ever think wealthy CEOs are ever going to use repatriated monies to increase wages of their loyal employees; pay greater benefits or enhance retirement funds. These repatriated funds will go to the top managers as excessive bonus and great payouts to stockholders- all paid for by the average struggling American.

 

In all my history of voting in American elections which spans 50 years- I have never seen an American President as bad and as selfish as Donald Trump and his Republican sycophants.

[boomerangutang]

7 hours ago, riclag said:

I'll save $200 + on  eliminating accounting fee's by doing the post card filing . Love to see the companies come back and repatriate their money back in the USA and grow the economy.It will bring back jobs and give welfare recipients incentive to get a job!

Glad you save some money by doing your taxes on a postcard.  Actually, Jerry Brown recommended that during his 1st term as gov of California, That was before Madonna was picking up and seducing young brown guys, while riding around in taxis in NYC (I use that as a time frame reference).

 

Gimme a break - about corps taking their lower taxes and creating more and better paid jobs.  That's divorced from the truth.  Corp heads admit it.  There was a roomful of corp head honchos, and the man at the dais asked who would used windfalls/lower taxes to create jobs.  Out of approx 60 CEO's in attendance, about 4 hands went up.

 

Trump says the middle class will each get a $4,000/yr increase in wages with this malarkey.  What a load of sow dung.  Trump is getting peoples' hopes up - which will then be inevitably dashed.  The only people raking in the dough are bakers and rich Americans.  Everyone else will get trickled-down upon with a light-yellow colored liquid that doesn't smell nice.

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

Good article here about the effect of big tax cuts in North Caroline. Not yet the budget disaster it was in Kansas, but it definitely hurt services and apparently did nothing to boost the economy

What happened when North Carolina cut taxes like the GOP plans to for the country

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/what-happened-when-north-carolina-cut-taxes-like-the-gop-plans-to-for-the-country/2017/12/03/1b8ead74-d859-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html

[ilostmypassword]

8 hours ago, riclag said:

I'll save $200 + on  eliminating accounting fee's by doing the post card filing . Love to see the companies come back and repatriate their money back in the USA and grow the economy.It will bring back jobs and give welfare recipients incentive to get a job!

 

Actually many countries will have their tax departments do your taxes for you for free. Republicans have repeatedly shot down that idea.

[Skeptic7]

11 hours ago, riclag said:

I'll save $200 + on  eliminating accounting fee's by doing the post card filing . Love to see the companies come back and repatriate their money back in the USA and grow the economy.It will bring back jobs and give welfare recipients incentive to get a job!

 

If you're spending $200 on a tax preparer, then you must have a lot of deductions and you can kiss those goodbye. Tax software and doing one's own taxes was the easiest way to save on tax filing. 

 

Save $200 on tax preparer...lose hundreds more on loss of itemized deductions. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Skeptic7