Jomtien/Chonburi TM30 fines galore

[joskeshake]

From everything i do in immigration i take scan, so I always can prove myself.so easy.

[jojothai]

1 hour ago, chickenslegs said:

In my 12 years of full-time living in Thailand I have never submitted a TM30, nor has my wife, who owns our home.

I was out of the country for 6 weeks earlier this year, returning in mid April.

In July I made my 90 day report in person at Jomtien.

In mid October I obtained my annual extension of stay (retirement) at Jomtien.

Later in October I made another 90 day report in person at Jomtien.

Nobody has asked me for a TM30 and I have not volunteered one.

As far as I know, the requirements only started to be enforced in mid 2016. So its only a recent thing but is spreading. Many people still dont know but there is a history developing on TV.

It is clear that some immigration offices in particular are applying the law. eg Chiang Mai.

Jomtien happens to be one, but it is hit and miss.

They also appear to be lenient on some things.

If asked you can claim ignorance, but bear in mind that this is potentially a nice earner for the authorities.

 

Suggest that you should be aware of what the TM30 requires.

If your wife is the housemaster and ends up getting fined she may not be happy if she didnt know the requirements.

 

[juice777]

I haven't heard that one at Jomtien - agents out-front now - or the guys next door?

Don't listen to the guys next door especially the Filipino girl who dose your paper work. Last time she was doing my paperwork I mentioned the TM30 thing said I don't know if and how much you will get fined. She said you will get fined but if you want can go pay it for you or something like that. I didn't get finend and would have lost my money if I took her up on her offer.

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[tgeezer]

jojothai, You are ignoring the fact that a 'law' was not enforced, what was enforced was an interpretation of rules put in place in order to make laws workable.

From little acorns mighty oaks grow, I suspect that the 'little acorn' can be found by research of this forum, I haven't done that but I feel that there was one post which started the whole thing. There are many other threads on the topic and many opinions which show the developments, it isn't a long trail.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

edit: I may be overestimating the value of this site as an archive, certainly I am not capable of tracing the origin of this debacle using my iPad.

[jacko45k]

8 hours ago, glasswort said:

I am on an extension of stay based on retirement and live in Pattaya in a house owned by my wife. We moved earlier this year and when we reported the change of address in Jomtien I asked for clarification of the TM30 requirement. I was told that my wife did not need to submit the forms if I am out of the country for less than a month. I was away for a couple of weeks and returned in early September. I have to do a 90 day next week and will be interested to see what happens.

I have done a 90 day report and renewed my retirement extension in the last month.

I also was out of Thailand 2 times in the last year, both less than a month. I have also stayed overnight in a Bangkok hotel twice.

I did not offer, nor was I asked about a TM30, thankfully, as that room looked chaotic and there was a long wait. Both my requirements were completed quickly and efficiently.

Read Mr chickenslegs post above, that too is close to my experience.

[BEVUP]

14 minutes ago, jacko45k said:

I did not offer, nor was I asked about a TM30,

It's not your responsibility to offer or for them to ask you 

The responsibility soley lays on the owner of the property - So lets say you stayed at the hotel & of cause they asked for your passport - This is when they should do even without you knowing because it's not our business

Same with house

[Monkeyrobot]

As the owner of the property can’t you do this online? Every owner of a condo Thai or Farang and Hotel managers do not have to attend in person at immigration when a new arrival checks in. When you arrive and are stamped into the country the arrival card also has your address. 

[Briggsy]

8 minutes ago, Monkeyrobot said:

As the owner of the property can’t you do this online? Every owner of a condo Thai or Farang and Hotel managers do not have to attend in person at immigration when a new arrival checks in. When you arrive and are stamped into the country the arrival card also has your address. 

This option is generally only available for commercial hotels. The OP, theswedishguy, is living in an owner-occupied condo. Thus online reporting for TM30 is not available.

 

He needs to go in person to immigration within 24 hours of returning to the country / returning to Chonburi (in line with Jomtien Immigration requirements)

[SiSePuede419]

18 hours ago, BEVUP said:

You actually have to report to Immi (as an owner of property ) within 24 hrs of a foriegner residing at that address on arrival to Thailand

Therefore You /They would have a new TM 6 Slip every time the owner of such property was doing the TM 30 report

As far as I know in Thailand hotels have to do & ect but will not effect your return to the original residence since you are using the same TM 6

TM6 is Thai arrival/departure card.  

[Mattd]

The whole system is a complete mess in reality, as it primarily designed for Foreigners who come to Thailand on holiday and stay in hotels who have the ability to report electronically.

Outside of the tourism industry 95% of the population would not have a clue that they are supposed to report somebody staying at their house / condo etc. and nor would the visiting foreigner know of this rule either.

Why would anybody know, it is not exactly advertised.

Those of us that do stay here long term for whatever reason, do, perhaps, have less of an excuse to not do this reporting, however, there are circumstances where it is not exactly easy to conform, landlord refusing to comply or not in the country, those who work in one location and live in another, those who frequently travel in and out of the country and so on.  

It seems to have become an immigration obsession lately, addresses are reported on the TM.6 upon arrival, then they expect everyone not staying in a hotel to somehow report an address on a TM.30 within 24 hours of getting to the address, which in most cases will be the same address on the TM.6, then every 90 days report your address again if you haven't left the country in that period, report it again when making an extension of stay, including in some cases photos of the residence and a map of it's location.

The best way to ensure compliance is to make things easy, not a time consuming pain in the you know where!

Edited December 7, 2017 by Mattd

[Tanoshi]

13 hours ago, jojothai said:

TM6 is nothing to do with the TM30.

It has been stated enough times in many posts.

The TM6 does not provide you with the notification of where you are staying that is required.

The TM6 meets the requirements of section 37 of the Immigration Act for the foreigner to notify his address.

The TM30 meets the requirements of section 38 of the Immigration Act for the 'house master' to report a foreigner arriving at the residence.

 

They are indeed separate requirements, but I'd suggest their is a link.

One reports your intended residence, one reports you've reached and taken up that same residence.

 

Why does a TM30 then require you notify your new TM6 number?

[BsBs]

11 hours ago, jojothai said:

Good for you.

If its been 20 years without any contact, by all means enjoy the 10 year ban when they find you.

 

Find what ? My visa is perfectly legit, but going out of the country every 3 months I do not have to report anything anywhere. Enjoy you paroled prisoner life !

 

 

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, BEVUP said:

It's not your responsibility to offer or for them to ask you 

The responsibility soley lays on the owner of the property - So lets say you stayed at the hotel & of cause they asked for your passport - This is when they should do even without you knowing because it's not our business

Same with house

It certainly is not the sole responsibility of the owner.

Section 38 of the Immigration Act clearly states it is the responsibility of the house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager.

Section 4 further defines the 'house-master' as any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of
owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever ,

[Peterw42]

The OP appears to be coming and going on tourist visa's. So a new TM30 for each visit, as he is then going to extend. Once his visa ends and he leaves thats the end of that TM30.

A whole lot different to coming and going on an ongoing visa/extension. An initial TM30 is sometimes required and then its ongoing.

There is no TM30 tenure etc across new visits on a new visa.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Peterw42

[Tanoshi]

17 minutes ago, BsBs said:

 

Find what ? My visa is perfectly legit, but going out of the country every 3 months I do not have to report anything anywhere. Enjoy you paroled prisoner life !

 

 

Your Visa is for 'visiting' Thai wife, not for 'staying' in Thailand, so you could be accused of circumventing the system, by not using your Visa for the purpose it was issued.

 

If your Immigration office enforces the requirement to submit a new TM30 after re-entering the Country, then you should be complying every 3 months. You should check with their requirements. You are also 'reporting' to Immigration every 3 months whether you like it or not.

 

One of the differences having an extension of 'stay' based on marriage (not to 'visit' as per a Non Imm O ME) is that my 90 day reports can be filed by post, online or by another person. Should I not comply, at worst I receive a 2,000 baht fine for 'late' filing.

In your situation, if you were sick, or somehow otherwise unable to make your 90 day trip, you are on 'overstay' having no other means, or persons to make the trip on your behalf/

 

[jojothai]

10 hours ago, tgeezer said:

jojothai, You are ignoring the fact that a 'law' was not enforced, what was enforced was an interpretation of rules put in place in order to make laws workable.

From little acorns mighty oaks grow, I suspect that the 'little acorn' can be found by research of this forum, I haven't done that but I feel that there was one post which started the whole thing. There are many other threads on the topic and many opinions which show the developments, it isn't a long trail.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

edit: I may be overestimating the value of this site as an archive, certainly I am not capable of tracing the origin of this debacle using my iPad.

The relevant law has been in place since 1979 but was not implemented.

Ignore the law at your own risk. It is hit and miss, but some places have spotted the golden egg quickly.

As I understand from others, Bangkok does not yet impose TM30 requirements. I hope so, and will have to test this myself in the next 2 weeks. Some others do impose TM30 but not consistently.

 

So that you understand this better you should google "TM30 notification of residence" it will quickly give you more than enough sites to get the background. Look in particular late 2016 from about September when this all blew up - when immigration offices started to impose the law, as I remember in Chiang Mai.

Some sites state requirements explicitly eg .http://donslifeinthailand.com/TM28_Imm_Law.html

I think that will give you key info. 

 

Although the house master is supposed to notify, how can he be expected to so, when he does not know when a tenant comes and goes nor if there are other guests. The tenant can notify by him/herself and it works in Jomtien.

I have followed this closely since it blew up, because I rent out two apartments and I will not have my tenants claiming ignorance. I also do not want to be seen to breaking the law nor paying fines because tenants may not comply.

[BritTim]

1 hour ago, Jazzius said:

 

"in Thailand hotels have to do & ect" -- What is "ect"? Is this a typo? Please explain, I'm trying to understand this TM30 and TM6 stuff.

 

Are you saying that a new TM30 registration is not necessary as long as you are using the same TM6? Please confirm if my understanding is correct.

Let me try to sort out this incredibly confusing matter of address reporting in Thailand...

 

First there is the law. The rules that are actually applied bear little relationship to the law (indeed, the law as written could not possibly be enforced) but the law is the justification for the fines that are handed out. Below, I quote the relevant sections of the Thai Immigration Act of 1979, and then clarify the totally different way it is actually applied. After that, I will stress that it may be different at the immigration office you use, and individual immigration officials may depart from the typical policy at any specific office.

 

Quote

 

Section 37

An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the following:

1. ...
2. Shall stay at the place as indicated to the competent official. Where there is proper reason that he cannot stay at the place as indicated to the competent official, he shall notify the competent official of the change in residence, within 24 hours from the time of removing to said place.
3. Shall notify the police official of the local police station where such alien resides, within twenty–four hours from the time of arrival. In the case of change in residence in which new residence is not located the same area with the former police stations, such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within twenty-four hours from the time of arrival.
4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty-four hours, such alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty-eight hours from the time of arrival.

 

The above is the basis for the TM28 form. This is a report by the foreigner himself of his whereabouts. In the vast majority of cases, the above can be ignored. By "local police station", it really means local immigration office (Thai immigration is part of the police). The only time, in practice, the TM28 is enforced is when you have a long term extension of stay from one immigration office (and are thus registered there) and want to move somewhere under the jurisdiction of a different office.

 

Quote

If the alien stays in the Kingdom longer than ninety days, such alien must notify the competent official at the Immigration Division, in writing, concerning his place of stay, as soon as possible upon expiration of ninety days. The alien is required to do so every ninety days. Where there is an Immigration Office, the alien may notify a competent Immigration Official of that office.

This is the 90-day report using form using form TM47. It is universally enforced, and applies to all foreigners in Thailand on long term stays (more than 90 days at a time). It does not apply to those with short term extensions, such as 60 days to visit Thai spouse, or medical extensions.

Quote

Section 38

The housemaster, the owner or the possessor of the residence, or the hotel manager where the alien, receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed, must notify the competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours, dwelling place or hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned. If there is no Immigration Office located in that area, the local police official for that area must be notified.
 

In case the house, dwelling place, or hotel where the alien has stayed under provision of paragraph 1 is located within the Bangkok area, such notification must be reported to the competent official at the Immigration Division.
 

Making notification, in reference to the paragraph 1 and 2 of this Section, must comply with regulations prescribed by the Director General.

This is the Notification of Aliens Living in the Property (TM30). It is extremely confusing as the law is applied totally differently depending on the immigration office (and sometimes even individual immigration official). The theory is simple enough: any time someone arrives in a property for which you are responsible, you must inform immigration within 24 hours. Hotels must follow the law as written. Otherwise, these things vary

• whether any TM30 report needs to be made in that immigration area at all;
• who is expected to report (often if you are renting a condo long term you can do it yourself);
• the documents that must be submitted along with the TM30;
• whether (and under what conditions) a fresh TM30 must be submitted when you temporarily leave and then return to the same address: usually, it is not necessary for trips around Thailand, but is often needed after an overseas trip, sometimes depending on how long you are away;
• whether TM30 reports are expected for short term visitors to a property that is not a hotel.

 

For Bangkok, the following simple guidelines can be given:

• Forget the TM30 notifications, unless you run a hotel. They are, thankfully, not required.
• You only need to submit a TM28 if you previously lived outside Bangkok (being registered in another province) and subsequently moved to Bangkok.
• If on a long term stay, submit a TM47 every 90 days (but if you leave and return to Thailand, the 90 days starts counting again from the day of your return.

If you are not in Bangkok, visit your local immigration office, get clear instructions on what is required (especially in respect of the TM30) write it down, and get the official to agree your understanding is correct.

 

Phew!

 

 

 

[glasswort]

18 hours ago, jojothai said:

Requirements seem to be checked hit and miss. Some officers more thorough than others.

Please update after your 90 day.

Good to know how it goes.

Went to Soi 5 around lunchtime today and it was packed. However, my applications for 90 day reporting and a re-entry permit were dealt with quickly and I was out within thirty minutes. Nothing said about TM30s and I can only conclude that each individual case is treated as a one-off and appropriate rules applied.

[jojothai]

6 hours ago, Mattd said:

The whole system is a complete mess in reality, as it primarily designed for Foreigners who come to Thailand on holiday and stay in hotels who have the ability to report electronically.

Outside of the tourism industry 95% of the population would not have a clue that they are supposed to report somebody staying at their house / condo etc. and nor would the visiting foreigner know of this rule either.

Why would anybody know, it is not exactly advertised.

Those of us that do stay here long term for whatever reason, do, perhaps, have less of an excuse to not do this reporting, however, there are circumstances where it is not exactly easy to conform, landlord refusing to comply or not in the country, those who work in one location and live in another, those who frequently travel in and out of the country and so on.  

It seems to have become an immigration obsession lately, addresses are reported on the TM.6 upon arrival, then they expect everyone not staying in a hotel to somehow report an address on a TM.30 within 24 hours of getting to the address, which in most cases will be the same address on the TM.6, then every 90 days report your address again if you haven't left the country in that period, report it again when making an extension of stay, including in some cases photos of the residence and a map of it's location.

The best way to ensure compliance is to make things easy, not a time consuming pain in the you know where!

Its even more crazy than that.

Wherever you stay more than 24 hours is the legal requirement.

So If I leave the apartment in bangkok and go to the house in the provinces. In theory, I am supposed to have a TM30 filed each time that it is more than 24 hours.

Got to be joking?

[tgeezer]

Does anyone else find it odd that Immigration relies on us to prove that reports have been filed, if the information was so vital I would expect them to keep a record of it.


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[jojothai]

8 hours ago, Briggsy said:

This option is generally only available for commercial hotels. The OP, theswedishguy, is living in an owner-occupied condo. Thus online reporting for TM30 is not available.

 

He needs to go in person to immigration within 24 hours of returning to the country / returning to Chonburi (in line with Jomtien Immigration requirements)

I was told that Individuals cannot register on the service.

There would be a way to do this that could simplify things with condos.

The condominium juristic management should be recognised and registered so that they can do it.

However as I have stated in previous posts, 2 condos I asked are not interested because it is extra work and they dont want any liability for making the reports.

[Mattd]

10 minutes ago, jojothai said:

Its even more crazy than that.

Wherever you stay more than 24 hours is the legal requirement.

So If I leave the apartment in bangkok and go to the house in the provinces. In theory, I am supposed to have a TM30 filed each time that it is more than 24 hours.

Got to be joking?

Which is exactly why I wrote: - Those of us that do stay here long term for whatever reason, do, perhaps, have less of an excuse to not do this reporting, however, there are circumstances where it is not exactly easy to conform, landlord refusing to comply or not in the country, those who work in one location and live in another, those who frequently travel in and out of the country and so on.  

In my case for example, I work in Bangkok Monday to Friday, then travel back to Pattaya at the weekends, I also travel out of the country quite a lot, so would be forever submitting TM.30's!

Edited December 7, 2017 by Mattd

[jojothai]

5 hours ago, BsBs said:

 

Find what ? My visa is perfectly legit, but going out of the country every 3 months I do not have to report anything anywhere. Enjoy you paroled prisoner life !

 

 

 

Then you can remove the reference to "no contact". Otherwise, how do you get your visa?

 

In theory when you go for visa renewal in Thailand they can ask for the TM30,

but as I understand it in general they are not yet asking for it.

Reports seem to suggest that it happens more for 90 day reporting and extension of short stays.

 

 

[jojothai]

As above. repeat post

 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by jojothai
already posted

[BritTim]

11 minutes ago, jojothai said:

 

Then you can remove the reference to "no contact". Otherwise, how do you get your visa?

 

In theory when you go for visa renewal in Thailand they can ask for the TM30,

but as I understand it in general they are not yet asking for it.

Reports seem to suggest that it happens more for 90 day reporting and extension of short stays.

Visas are issued by embassies/consulates outside Thailand, and are nothing to do with the Immigration Division. If you asked a consular official about TM30 notifications, it is 99% certain you would just get blank looks.

 

Avoiding immigration offices inside Thailand does not remove the legal obligation for TM30 notifications, but the practical effect is that no one ever checks they have been done.

[jojothai]

31 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Let me try to sort out this incredibly confusing matter of address reporting in Thailand...

 

 

 

Good effort thanks BritTim.

I note you added the bit about Bangkok that I am not sure about.

But my understanding from others is that Bangkok do not follow up on the TM30 requirements.

I will find out for myself in the next two weeks.

[BritTim]

2 minutes ago, jojothai said:

Good effort thanks BritTim.

I note you added the bit about Bangkok that I am not sure about.

But my understanding from others is that Bangkok do not follow up on the TM30 requirements.

I will find out for myself in the next two weeks.

I should have stressed the not in my last paragraph. You are correct. TM30 notifications are not required in Bangkok.

[jojothai]

8 minutes ago, BritTim said:

Visas are issued by embassies/consulates outside Thailand, and are nothing to do with the Immigration Division. If you asked a consular official about TM30 notifications, it is 99% certain you would just get blank looks.

 

Avoiding immigration offices inside Thailand does not remove the legal obligation for TM30 notifications, but the practical effect is that no one ever checks they have been done.

Should have said "extension" not visa renewal.

Hard to believe that the OP posting is getting a new visa every 3 months for 20 years.

it is possible with regular travel , but surely the consul offices would have flagged this up.

 

As you say, they are unlikely to know or require anything for TM30. It is not on any of their requirements.

Edited December 7, 2017 by jojothai
added text

[BritTim]

10 minutes ago, jojothai said:

Should have said "extension" not visa renewal.

Hard to believe that the OP posting is getting a new visa every 3 months for 20 years.

it is possible with regular travel , but surely the consul offices would have flagged this up.

 

As you say, they are unlikely to know or require anything for TM30. It is not on any of their requirements.

He is doing the following:

• Once every 12-15 months, he is applying for a multiple entry Non O visa at a consulate outside Thailand (perhaps, Savannakhet).
• Every 90 days, he is doing a border hop to get a new 90-day permission to stay

This approach means that he never needs to visit an immigration office to request an extension.

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

The OP appears to be coming and going on tourist visa's. So a new TM30 for each visit, as he is then going to extend. Once his visa ends and he leaves thats the end of that TM30.

A whole lot different to coming and going on an ongoing visa/extension. An initial TM30 is sometimes required and then its ongoing.

There is no TM30 tenure etc across new visits on a new visa.

Actually, even doing the Tourist Visa routine (as I did for years), you can submit a TM-30 once, then every time you leave and return, go to the office and report "same address."  They gave me a new slip for my passport, but I did not have to go through the lease/owner-id routine, each time.