Jomtien/Chonburi TM30 fines galore

[jojothai]

4 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Actually, even doing the Tourist Visa routine (as I did for years), you can submit a TM-30 once, then every time you leave and return, go to the office and report "same address."  They gave me a new slip for my passport, but I did not have to go through the lease/owner-id routine, each time.

Good to know. Sounds more common sense but still involves the extra reporting.

Which immigration office(s) was that please?

Edited December 7, 2017 by jojothai
text characters added

[JackThompson]

Just now, jojothai said:

Good to know. Sounds more common sense but still involves the extra reporting.

Which immigration office was that please?

Jomtien.  Though things change there frequently on this process, so who knows by tomorrow.

[BsBs]

5 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Your Visa is for 'visiting' Thai wife, not for 'staying' in Thailand, so you could be accused of circumventing the system, by not using your Visa for the purpose it was issued.

 

If your Immigration office enforces the requirement to submit a new TM30 after re-entering the Country, then you should be complying every 3 months. You should check with their requirements. You are also 'reporting' to Immigration every 3 months whether you like it or not.

 

One of the differences having an extension of 'stay' based on marriage (not to 'visit' as per a Non Imm O ME) is that my 90 day reports can be filed by post, online or by another person. Should I not comply, at worst I receive a 2,000 baht fine for 'late' filing.

In your situation, if you were sick, or somehow otherwise unable to make your 90 day trip, you are on 'overstay' having no other means, or persons to make the trip on your behalf/

 

 

I comply with what I want and certainly not with stupid rules. Yes, I have something between my legs that many foreigners seem to miss in this country. And yes, I also don't care to have to leave the country if the rats are becoming too noisy.

 

 

[BsBs]

49 minutes ago, BritTim said:

He is doing the following:

• Once every 12-15 months, he is applying for a multiple entry Non O visa at a consulate outside Thailand (perhaps, Savannakhet).
• Every 90 days, he is doing a border hop to get a new 90-day permission to stay

This approach means that he never needs to visit an immigration office to request an extension.

 

And before that I was 15 years on a tourist visa !

Love the rules here ! they are so easy to fuxx ! Only people who follow them get troubles !

 

 

[JackThompson]

10 minutes ago, BsBs said:

I comply with what I want and certainly not with stupid rules. Yes, I have something between my legs that many foreigners seem to miss in this country. And yes, I also don't care to have to leave the country if the rats are becoming too noisy.

 

7 minutes ago, BsBs said:

And before that I was 15 years on a tourist visa !

Love the rules here ! they are so easy to fuxx ! Only people who follow them get troubles !

We all have our limits, as to what we will put up with, of course - but if you kept your TR-Visas legal all that time, you seem to like it enough here to go through some trouble to stay.  I speak from experience doing that routine (though not that long). 

 

As long as you keep your visas legal, you aren't <deleting> the rules at all.  You are just as legal here as anyone with an extension of stay.  In fact, you are more legal than the masses who "agent-faked" docs for their extensions of stay - those are the people who are <deleting> the system.

[jamie2009]

I rent a house in Pattaya, in my humble opinion it is the owner who is required to complete a TM30, if the onus was put on tourists every time they visit Pattaya to complete a TM28 Immigration would be overwhelmed.

i would say if I owned the property the onus would be on me to complete a TM30 ?

[BritTim]

26 minutes ago, jamie2009 said:

I rent a house in Pattaya, in my humble opinion it is the owner who is required to complete a TM30, if the onus was put on tourists every time they visit Pattaya to complete a TM28 Immigration would be overwhelmed.

i would say if I owned the property the onus would be on me to complete a TM30 ?

That is a logical assumption. However, many immigration officials will elect to disagree with you (for whatever reason) and it is the rules they specify that matter.

[notamember]

15 hours ago, JackThompson said:

 

We all have our limits, as to what we will put up with, of course - but if you kept your TR-Visas legal all that time, you seem to like it enough here to go through some trouble to stay.  I speak from experience doing that routine (though not that long). 

 

As long as you keep your visas legal, you aren't <deleting> the rules at all.  You are just as legal here as anyone with an extension of stay.  In fact, you are more legal than the masses who "agent-faked" docs for their extensions of stay - those are the people who are <deleting> the system.

Every response i read from Jack makes some derogatory reference to visa agents, people like Darren at Key Visa are highly regarded members of the community that are trusted by the British embassy in Bangkok for letters, by the passport agency in Bangkok for passport renewals and by local immigration offices. He has spoken at many meetings of expat clubs and given his opinion as to visas on local radio shows. So Jack, why do you dislike agents like Darren so much and disparage them on every possible occasion?

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, notamember said:

Every response i read from Jack makes some derogatory reference to visa agents, people like Darren at Key Visa are highly regarded members of the community that are trusted by the British embassy in Bangkok for letters, by the passport agency in Bangkok for passport renewals and by local immigration offices. He has spoken at many meetings of expat clubs and given his opinion as to visas on local radio shows. So Jack, why do you dislike agents like Darren so much and disparage them on every possible occasion?

I do not have any specific information on that particular Agent or person, and my comments are not directed at that particular agent or person. But,

• For extensions-of-stay I have read many reports of obtaining without proving the requisite finances, by using an "agent," who puts up funds in a bank-account for a day, and somehow* gets immigration to "overlook" the lack of required seasoning.  The seasoning is necessary specifically to prevent "short term loans" being used to meet the finances of extensions-of-stay.  Therefore, this "service" is a violation of the rules.  
• In the case of conversions, applicants have reported getting their Non-O conversion plus 1-year extension of stay in one-step - a rules violation via early application for extension (denied to those applying in person), plus no seasoning of the money for the extension. 
• In other cases, agents have been reported to get "priority queuing" - and the legit-path is actively blocked by Immigration not providing a date for the applicant to apply, before their current-stay would expire. 

Some immigration offices appear to make it difficult to get legitimate extensions-of-stay and/or conversions, in an attempt to force applicants to use agents.  In most cases, some legit-path for applicants remains open - but not always.  I experienced this personally - in the form of "highly-modified" qualification rules for a conversion; I refused to play that game, and went out to a Consulate for a legit-Visa.  It would appear that money is changing hands between (some) agents and (some) IOs, which is the cause of these behaviors.  Again, I am not referring to the specific agent or person you cited.

 

I mentioned the "Agent Issue" in the context you quoted, because those on extensions-of-stay often disparage those who have had to go to consulates abroad for Multiple-Entry Visas - often because of this type of corruption at immigration offices.  Yet, we know that some Agents fake the financials for extensions of stay, so it is actually those on extensions who are Most Likely to be circumventing the rules - while those who diligently travel as required by the rules of their visas are following the rules to the letter - and do not deserve to be told they are doing something illegitimate.

 

My advise to anyone using an agent, would be to do all your own legwork on the documents, so you know everything was done correctly.  Then, keep copies of all of this, including your appointments at immigration, to show you did things in the proper order.  This helps minimize the downside, in case the agent one chooses is later caught up in a corruption scandal (per reports here, which do not cite a specific agent), it could lead to their application becoming suspect - even if they did nothing wrong. 

 

Since you brought up KeyVisa - not sure how promoting the business confers any helpful information in this context.  But anything you know (and/or are willing to share) about how their operation functions - vis-a-vis contacts with immigration - would be good info for us, so as to better understand how agents get things done.  Also, whether you have any information as to whether conversions they help get done are "by the book" in 2 steps (extension only done in the last 30 days of the Non-O 90-days), and how those applying supply financials (embassy letters, bank-letters, etc).  You mentioned they are "trusted" by certain entities - is this trust obtained via an insurance-bond or how does this work?

Edited December 8, 2017 by JackThompson

[notamember]

Just now, JackThompson said:

I do not have any specific information on that particular Agent or person, and my comments are not directed at that particular agent or person. But,

• For extensions-of-stay I have read many reports of obtaining without proving the requisite finances, by using an "agent," who puts up funds in a bank-account for a day, and somehow* gets immigration to "overlook" the lack of required seasoning.  The seasoning is necessary specifically to prevent "short term loans" being used to meet the finances of extensions-of-stay.  Therefore, this "service" is a violation of the rules.  
• In the case of conversions, applicants have reported getting their Non-O conversion plus 1-year extension of stay in one-step - a rules violation via early application for extension (denied to those applying in person), plus no seasoning of the money for the extension. 
• In other cases, agents have been reported to get "priority queuing" - and the legit-path is actively blocked by Immigration not providing a date for the applicant to apply, before their current-stay would expire. 

Some immigration offices appear to make it difficult to get legitimate extensions-of-stay and/or conversions, in an attempt to force applicants to use agents.  In most cases, some legit-path for applicants remains open - but not always.  I experienced this personally - in the form of "highly-modified" qualification rules for a conversion; I refused to play that game, and went out to a Consulate for a legit-Visa.  It would appear that money is changing hands between (some) agents and (some) IOs, which is the cause of these behaviors.  Again, I am not referring to the specific agent or person you cited.

 

I mentioned the "Agent Issue" in the context you quoted, because those on extensions-of-stay often disparage those who have had to go to consulates abroad for Multiple-Entry Visas - often because of this type of corruption at immigration offices.  Yet, we know that some Agents fake the financials for extensions of stay, so it is actually those on extensions who are Most Likely to be circumventing the rules - while those who diligently travel as required by the rules of their visas are following the rules to the letter - and do not deserve to be told they are doing something illegitimate.

 

My advise to anyone using an agent, would be to do all your own legwork on the documents, so you know everything was done correctly.  Then, keep copies of all of this, including your appointments at immigration, to show you did things in the proper order.  This helps minimize the downside, in case one's agent one chooses is later caught up in a corruption scandal (per reports here, which do not cite a specific agent), it could lead to their application becoming suspect - even if they did nothing wrong. 

 

Since you brought up KeyVisa - not sure how promoting the business confers any helpful information in this context.  But anything you know (and/or are willing to share) about how their operation functions - vis-a-vis contacts with immigration - would be good info for us, so as to better understand how agents get things done.  Also, whether you have any information as to whether conversions they help get done are "by the book" in 2 steps (extension only done in the last 30 days of the Non-O 90-days), and how those applying supply financials (embassy letters, bank-letters, etc).  You mentioned they are "trusted" by certain entities - is this trust obtained via an insurance-bond or how does this work?

Jack i do not have a hard on for agents like you so its not my intention to promote anyone or confirm how any visa agents work with immigration, not on a public forum and a especially not for your consumption

Unlike you Jack, i tend to mind my own business and let grown up people make grown up decisions about how they conduct themselves and how they tend to their future and their family

having said that its clear you have never used any agent, so in reality what do you know as fact?

its all supposition and conjecture which you seem happy to propagate as fact, and i can say is mostly wrong, i would suggest that your dour and negative Armageddon type comments have no place on a visa forum

i am sure i am not alone when i say that i wish you and other posters of your ilk would let the experts like ubonjoe, brit tim, elvajero give accurate and informed answers to peoples inquiries and concerns  without ill informed but noisy comments  like yours intervening

Thank you

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, notamember said:

Jack i do not have a hard on for agents like you so its not my intention to promote anyone or confirm how any visa agents work with immigration, not on a public forum and a especially not for your consumption

If they are good folks, and let's assume that they are, then describing the process is just good-publicity / advertising.  Maybe they will produce a document explaining it some day, to clarify and boost confidence in their shop's honest and forthright processes.

 

1 hour ago, notamember said:

Unlike you Jack, i tend to mind my own business and let grown up people make grown up decisions about how they conduct themselves and how they tend to their future and their family

having said that its clear you have never used any agent, so in reality what do you know as fact?

its all supposition and conjecture which you seem happy to propagate as fact, and i can say is mostly wrong, i would suggest that your dour and negative Armageddon type comments have no place on a visa forum

All I have related has been posted to others, in public, in a public forum.  I have not pried into anyone's private dealings. 
 

Everyone can take their chances as they wish.  But it would be unkind to anyone - especially with a family here - to ignore the many reports of agent-procured visas, which do not follow the rules, which leaves the door open for possible inquires into that agent's past visa-processing history.  We've all seen the TV, with the pointing fingers.  I don't want that to be me.

 

Explaining how "honest agent" processing works, in a public-forum, would help people make an informed decision, and not hurt anyone's business or options.

 

I have inquired with some agents in the Pattaya-area regarding getting an MFA Certification done on an already translated document, and another which did not require translation.  The quotes were ~3x higher than using a translator in Bangkok.  I later learned all could be done by-post via EMS with the MFA, which I subsequently did, for 400 Baht and 200 Baht, respectively - so, in actuality, the agent-cost was closer to 10X the real cost of the service.

 

1 hour ago, notamember said:

i am sure i am not alone when i say that i wish you and other posters of your ilk would let the experts like ubonjoe, brit tim, elvajero give accurate and informed answers to peoples inquiries and concerns  without ill informed but noisy comments  like yours intervening

Thank you

And I am not alone, in my dislike others implying that those of us who have been forced to use Consulates for Visas - due to some immigration-offices blocking the legitimate path - are somehow the ones doing something improper / dodgy / etc.  This is wrong and should not go un-challenged.

 

If not for "side deal" arrangements, honest folks could do everything "by the book" in-country.  If you have read this forum for any length of time, you know what I am saying is true - these "arrangements" hurt honest people, and reward the dishonest. 

[NanLaew]

I ALMOST went off-topic there.

 

The OP hasn't come back and clarified his immigration status so just another thread of inconclusive speculation.

Edited December 8, 2017 by NanLaew

[notamember]

Ok Jack

we are not going to agree nor do i want to waste more of my time on discussing the merits of using any agent but let me ask you to take a moment to peer down from your ivory tower and make a decision on an actual case

Australian retiree, house , girlfriend, Ute. money on bank, long term retirement extension holder

gets septicemia, nearly loses his legs, no insurance. costs 5 million baht at a well known local hospital to save his life and his legs.

Visa renewal time comes around quickly during recovery

no money in bank , let alone for 3 months prior

no time to sell house, Ute not worth enough, cannot get the money sorted in time from relatives , friends. He knows he is faced with letting it lapse, starting all over again on TV's and frequent travel whilst still in a wheelchair for most of the time, 

He consults an agent, agent goes to his house sympathetic of his condition, he pays agent 18,000 baht, he gets the renewal of his extension within a few days in the manner similar to one you describe and you are so sour about

Life goes on

 

and jack, your version of this story would be??

[notamember]

17 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

You are the one MISTAKENLY assuming that JT was talking about the legitimate visa businesses that YOU mentioned.

 

You are also the one MISTAKENLY proclaiming that every foreigner staying in Thailand and using a long-term visa/extension that requires proof a legally mandated minimum monthly income or other sustainable annual income actually has that money.

 

So you just keep on minding your own business and we won't talk about your mistakes any more. OK?

Nang liew, like you i am nothing more than an amateur commentator on visa issues and tend only to comment when i feel inclined rather than posting all the time on trivialities and cluttering the forum when there are few on here who are genuine experts whose advise can be trusted not just guessing like many

 it would be a pleasure not to talk to you, so i am happy to comply with your request and simply block you when i find out how to do so.

i expect you cannot promise to do the same

feel free to have the last word until i block you

bye bye

[KBsinter]

That was very interesting reading, nicely conducted debate well done.............

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, notamember said:

... He consults an agent, agent goes to his house sympathetic of his condition, he pays agent 18,000 baht, he gets the renewal of his extension within a few days in the manner similar to one you describe and you are so sour about

Life goes on

 

and jack, your version of this story would be??

First off, I don't wish for foreigners to be booted-out, as so many preachy-types on extensions hope will happen to those using Visas (Tourist, ME-Non-Os, etc) to stay here.  I think the financial-rules are too strict, so I don't begrudge those who cannot afford to meet them.  The cost of living in Thailand should be the deciding factor - maybe 40K/mo (even less up-country) is plenty to be a contributor to the economy. 

 

The problem is, the system used by this fellow is used routinely, and has created an incentive for some IOs  to <deleted> the rest of us - and in many cases, they are. 

 

Other options for this fellow:
 - The head of the immigration office does an override of the rules, having reviewed the special-conditions, and he pays 1900 Baht for his extension.  This is what that power is "for" - not for taking envelopes.
 - He gets a medical-extension with a doc's note - 90-days each.

 

But, I don't begrudge him for what he did, given the current state of affairs with immigration.

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, notamember said:

Ok Jack

we are not going to agree nor do i want to waste more of my time on discussing the merits of using any agent but let me ask you to take a moment to peer down from your ivory tower and make a decision on an actual case

Australian retiree, house , girlfriend, Ute. money on bank, long term retirement extension holder

gets septicemia, nearly loses his legs, no insurance. costs 5 million baht at a well known local hospital to save his life and his legs.

Visa renewal time comes around quickly during recovery

no money in bank , let alone for 3 months prior

no time to sell house, Ute not worth enough, cannot get the money sorted in time from relatives , friends. He knows he is faced with letting it lapse, starting all over again on TV's and frequent travel whilst still in a wheelchair for most of the time, 

He consults an agent, agent goes to his house sympathetic of his condition, he pays agent 18,000 baht, he gets the renewal of his extension within a few days in the manner similar to one you describe and you are so sour about

Life goes on

 

and jack, your version of this story would be??

 

Not sure what your point is, but;

I have a friend who contracted  Leptospirosis swimming in a waterfall in Thailand,  then developed septicaemia and was put into an induced coma for several weeks. Both legs were amputated to save his life.

His retirement extension expired but Immigration issued medical extensions, which his girlfriend applied for, until such time he was fit enough to travel. He wasn't insured, wiped out his savings.

He married the girlfriend that stuck by him through thick and thin for 2 years, obtained an Income letter from the Australian Embassy and now files for extensions based on marriage.

 

These experiences have little to do with the actual topic, but there is always someone, somewhere, who has a more torrid experience than yourself, but fortunately had enough knowledge of the system to get through it without ever thinking of Visa agents.

 

 

[notamember]

3 hours ago, JackThompson said:

First off, I don't wish for foreigners to be booted-out, as so many preachy-types on extensions hope will happen to those using Visas (Tourist, ME-Non-Os, etc) to stay here.  I think the financial-rules are too strict, so I don't begrudge those who cannot afford to meet them.  The cost of living in Thailand should be the deciding factor - maybe 40K/mo (even less up-country) is plenty to be a contributor to the economy. 

 

The problem is, the system used by this fellow is used routinely, and has created an incentive for some IOs  to <deleted> the rest of us - and in many cases, they are. 

 

Other options for this fellow:
 - The head of the immigration office does an override of the rules, having reviewed the special-conditions, and he pays 1900 Baht for his extension.  This is what that power is "for" - not for taking envelopes.
 - He gets a medical-extension with a doc's note - 90-days each.

 

But, I don't begrudge him for what he did, given the current state of affairs with immigration.

so its OK with Jack if the circumstances fit the crime

if you think  that the super will make an exception then you have been in Thailand too long

 

[notamember]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

 

Not sure what your point is, but;

I have a friend who contracted  Leptospirosis swimming in a waterfall in Thailand,  then developed septicaemia and was put into an induced coma for several weeks. Both legs were amputated to save his life.

His retirement extension expired but Immigration issued medical extensions, which his girlfriend applied for, until such time he was fit enough to travel. He wasn't insured, wiped out his savings.

He married the girlfriend that stuck by him through thick and thin for 2 years, obtained an Income letter from the Australian Embassy and now files for extensions based on marriage.

 

These experiences have little to do with the actual topic, but there is always someone, somewhere, who has a more torrid experience than yourself, but fortunately had enough knowledge of the system to get through it without ever thinking of Visa agents.

 

 

i doubt he never once thought about using an agent and who would go through all that to avoid using one?

Not me, needs must when the devil drives.........

[JackThompson]

3 hours ago, notamember said:

so its OK with Jack if the circumstances fit the crime

if you think  that the super will make an exception then you have been in Thailand too long

The Super should make an exception for a retiree in that position - after all, he just poured millions of Baht into the Thai economy - but I agree that this doesn't mean he would.  It seems they only make "exceptions" for agent-cash. 

 

That's why I added the line at the end - that I didn't blame the retiree for using a corrupt-service lane - since the honest route was likely closed, in order to force people into the corrupt lane "or else." 

[balo]

I have never used TM30 and never been asked for it , been in and out of the kingdom 3 times in the last year. 

 

I am leaving to Vietnam next week for a few days , will get my re-entry stamp and when I return and do my 90 day report , I expect business as usual which basically means in and out of Jomtien IO in less than 15 minutes.   No questions asked. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by balo

[BritTim]

23 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

3 hours ago, notamember said:

so its OK with Jack if the circumstances fit the crime

if you think  that the super will make an exception then you have been in Thailand too long

The Super should make an exception for a retiree in that position - after all, he just poured millions of Baht into the Thai economy - but I agree that this doesn't mean he would.  It seems they only make "exceptions" for agent-cash. 

 

That's why I added the line at the end - that I didn't blame the retiree for using a corrupt-service lane - since the honest route was likely closed, in order to force people into the corrupt lane "or else." 

I am not sure it is quite the same thing, but there are cases where immigration makes the decision to look the other way. I know of two cases of elderly Westerners with minimal funds who live up country with no intention of ever leaving. They do not have a hope of meeting the requirements to stay legally. The local immigration office is quite aware of their presence, but pretends ignorance. A little bit of help from local Thais means their quality of life (while basic) is better than if they were deported back to their home countries (even supposing an NGO could be persuaded to finance the trip).

 

I am well aware that there is widespread and disgusting corruption among officials in Thailand. However, many of those same officials are not without sympathy for those totally unable to help themselves.

[JackThompson]

1 minute ago, BritTim said:

I am not sure it is quite the same thing, but there are cases where immigration makes the decision to look the other way. I know of two cases of elderly Westerners with minimal funds who live up country with no intention of ever leaving. They do not have a hope of meeting the requirements to stay legally. The local immigration office is quite aware of their presence, but pretends ignorance. A little bit of help from local Thais means their quality of life (while basic) is better than if they were deported back to their home countries (even supposing an NGO could be persuaded to finance the trip).

 

I am well aware that there is widespread and disgusting corruption among officials in Thailand. However, many of those same officials are not without sympathy for those totally unable to help themselves.

It seems to vary wildly from office-to-office and even desk to desk within an office.  No problem at my office (Jomtien) for retired folks or even Tourists.  It goes South from there, from "difficult" to "impossible." 

 

It was mentioned by others that there are no agents out in the sticks.  That could mean those offices look at their job/function from a very different perspective. 

[notamember]

my responses have been removed,

Edited December 9, 2017 by ubonjoe
removed inflammatory comments

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, notamember said:

my responses have been removed,

No they have not. You have not had a post removed since November 2nd.

[opporna]

I'm about to go in for my annual extension of stay at Jomtien--this will be my third one from retirement, previously many years were for work permits. I own my own condo have reported every 90 days dutifully, but I'm worried that I can never recall having done a tm30, though when I bought my condo years ago I informed them that I had moved. If I go in now, am I in danger of being flagged for this? I've read many reports of people being flagged, but I'm not sure about my specific case.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

Edited December 12, 2017 by opporna

[NanLaew]

6 minutes ago, opporna said:

I'm about to go in for my annual extension of stay at Jomtien--this will be my third one from retirement, previously many years were for work permits. I own my own condo have reported every 90 days dutifully, but I'm worried that I can never recall having done a tm30, though when I bought my condo years ago I informed them that I had moved. If I go in now, am I in danger of being flagged for this? I've read many reports of people being flagged, but I'm not sure about my specific case.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

With three, hassle-free, back-to-back retirement extensions already under you belt from the Jomtien IO, I do not think you need to bother opening a can of worms with a TM30.

[opporna]

Two under my belt so far. Thanks for weighing in.

[NanLaew]

On 12/8/2017 at 10:41 PM, BritTim said:

I am well aware that there is widespread and disgusting corruption among officials in Thailand. However, many of those same officials are not without sympathy for those totally unable to help themselves.

I think the rumored 15 k - 30 k baht annual "sweetener" carries a lot more weight than any sympathy.

[NanLaew]

3 minutes ago, opporna said:

Two under my belt so far. Thanks for weighing in.

I have had 3 retirement extensions, back-to-back as a renter.

 

My friend has had 5 retirement extensions, back to back as a condo owner.

 

Another had several retirement extensions, back to back until 2 years ago when he picked up work and went on the marriage extension route.

 

All of us dealing with Jomtien immigration and none of us ever filing or ever being asked for a TM30.