Tm-30 fine

[Maestro]

On 13/12/2017 at 10:49 AM, Skeptic7 said:

Not for TM47 90 day report, as hadn't been in country 90 days. Did have a change of address a few months ago and just figured would take my chances doing it all at the same time...at extension time. Our landlord refuses to do the reporting ever. We blew it off and the IO wasn't the most pleasant. When she finally finished her complaining to GF about landlord not reporting, she handed down the fine and we were on our way. 

 

So possibly for late TM28? 

 

What does the receipt you got for the fine payment say?

[TaaSaparot]

On 13/12/2017 at 3:20 PM, jamie2009 said:

Can one of the Expat Organisations not approach Immigration at Jomtien and clarify the position on TM28/30 reporting and also enquire why it is only Jomtien enforcing this.

 

Pattaya Fab 103 put this video out earlier in the year, which was supposed to clarify things.

 

 

[ubonjoe]

14 minutes ago, TaaSaparot said:

Pattaya Fab 103 put this video out earlier in the year, which was supposed to clarify things.

In my opinion it confused things even more when it came out.

[andre47]

7 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

In my opinion it confused things even more when it came out.

How does it confuse you?

I saw this video now for the first time and it clarifies the things finally for me. Now I know that foreigners with a long term visa, making regularly 90 days reports, are not obliged to be reported with their permanent address again when they enter the kingdom. They only have to be reported, if they change their permanent address or if they are traveling withing the kingdom staying overnight in a different home than their permanent address.

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, andre47 said:

I saw this video now for the first time and it clarifies the things finally for me. Now I know that foreigners with a long term visa, making regularly 90 days reports, are not obliged to be reported with their permanent address again when they enter the kingdom. They only have to be reported, if they change their permanent address or if they are traveling withing the kingdom staying overnight in a different home than their permanent address.

That is not how it always works at Jomtien immigration which it was about. 

It was confusing because there is some misleading and inaccurate info in it

[Ned]

In Chiang Mai .....if you leave the country and come back you have to update your TM 30 within 24 hours......even if you go back to your old address.

[andre47]

6 minutes ago, Ned said:

In Chiang Mai .....if you leave the country and come back you have to update your TM 30 within 24 hours......even if you go back to your old address.

This movie is about the Chonburi Immigration. Each Immigration can establish their own rules, unfortunately...

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, andre47 said:

I saw this video now for the first time and it clarifies the things finally for me. Now I know that foreigners with a long term visa, making regularly 90 days reports, are not obliged to be reported with their permanent address again when they enter the kingdom.

How did you reach that conclusion from the video?

As far as I'm aware Chonburi Immigration request filing  a new TM30 if re-entering the Country.

[andre47]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

How did you reach that conclusion from the video?

As far as I'm aware Chonburi Immigration request filing  a new TM30 if re-entering the Country.

I suggest that you watch the video once again :) Start at minute 3:32 ...

 

[overherebc]

My understanding.

( 1 )

TM 30.

To be submitted by Owner, Landlord, Your wife if it's her house/condo, Hotel you stay at for your holiday.

 

( 2 )

TM 28.

If you leave the place where you stay full time ( as noted above ) and stay away for a few days on return you submit TM 28 within 24 hours. 

 

( 3 )

The place you stay at for your break should submit the TM 30 within 24 hours of your arrival.

 

Question on ( 3 ).

Should you also submit the TM 28 within 24 hours of arrival to the local office in that area?

[Tanoshi]

9 minutes ago, andre47 said:

I suggest that you watch the video once again :) Start at minute 3:32 ...

 

3.51........'So if we live at our address in Thailand we don't have to register again'.

 

How does that lead you to conclude that Immigration assumes your still living at the address when you leave and re-enter the Country.

[jamie2009]

2 minutes ago, overherebc said:

My understanding.

( 1 )

TM 30.

To be submitted by Owner, Landlord, Your wife if it's her house/condo, Hotel you stay at for your holiday.

 

( 2 )

TM 28.

If you leave the place where you stay full time ( as noted above ) and stay away for a few days on return you submit TM 28 within 24 hours. 

 

( 3 )

The place you stay at for your break should submit the TM 30 within 24 hours of your arrival.

 

Question on ( 3 ).

Should you also submit the TM 28 within 24 hours of arrival to the local office in that area?

To me as I have said before the owner of my house should submit a TM 30, if they do that why do I have to submit a TM28 as Immigration already have the info from the owner ?

If every resident with a long term visa went to Jomtien to complete a TM28 the queue would stretch to Beach Road.

[NanLaew]

On 12/13/2017 at 9:20 PM, Tanoshi said:

Section 37 : An alien having received a temporary entry permit into the Kingdom must comply with the
following :

...if the Immigration Office holding jurisdiction over their place of residence gives a sh!t.

[NanLaew]

28 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

3.51........'So if we live at our address in Thailand we don't have to register again'.

 

How does that lead you to conclude that Immigration assumes your still living at the address when you leave and re-enter the Country.

Only Chiang Mai Immigration Office 'cares'.

 

Next?

[andre47]

46 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

3.51........'So if we live at our address in Thailand we don't have to register again'.

 

How does that lead you to conclude that Immigration assumes your still living at the address when you leave and re-enter the Country.

You are obliged to report any change of your permanent address. As long as you don't report a change they assume that you are living at the same address. If you do not live there any more and you did not reported it you can be fined. What is so difficult?

[Tanoshi]

14 minutes ago, andre47 said:

You are obliged to report any change of your permanent address. As long as you don't report a change they assume that you are living at the same address. If you do not live there any more and you did not reported it you can be fined. What is so difficult?

I've never had a problem filing TM28's or TM30's and I've filed at few at different Immigration offices.

 

Your above statement is a complete contradiction to your previous statement;

Quote

Now I know that foreigners with a long term visa, making regularly 90 days reports, are not obliged to be reported with their permanent address again when they enter the kingdom.

That depends on your Immigrations interpretation and enforcement of the Act. 

Bangkok don't enforce filing a new TM30, but many other Immigration offices do.

[Tanoshi]

50 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

...if the Immigration Office holding jurisdiction over their place of residence gives a sh!t.

 

44 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Only Chiang Mai Immigration Office 'cares'.

 

Next?

 

You used to offer such positive contributions at one time.

 

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, overherebc said:

My understanding.

( 1 )

TM 30.

To be submitted by Owner, Landlord, Your wife if it's her house/condo, Hotel you stay at for your holiday.

Not entirely correct.

The Act states;

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager
where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the
competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or
hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned.

 

The House Master is defined under the Act as;

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of
owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

 

Which is why many foreigners (not the landlords) are fined for not filing a TM30, because they are considered as either the main possessor or tenant of the residence.

[NanLaew]

 

45 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

 

You used to offer such positive contributions at one time.

 

I still do. You are posting disinformation when you claim the following:

 

2 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

...

As far as I'm aware Chonburi Immigration request filing  a new TM30 if re-entering the Country.

 

There's no evidence that Jomtien are consistently and rigorously enforcing TM30-related penalties like Chiang Mai is.

 

There's plenty evidence that people doing immigration business at Jomtien are not being asked for them.

 

There's plenty evidence of TM30's being declined as unnecessary when they are offered during immigration business at Jomtien.

 

Anyway, the OP thought he was going to be fined for a TM30 violation and has subsequently left the building with his wallet intact.

[Tanoshi]

17 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

 

I still do. You are posting disinformation when you claim the following:

 

 

There's no evidence that Jomtien are consistently and rigorously enforcing TM30-related penalties like Chiang Mai is.

 

There's plenty evidence that people doing immigration business at Jomtien are not being asked for them.

 

There's plenty evidence of TM30's being declined as unnecessary when they are offered during immigration business at Jomtien.

 

Anyway, the OP thought he was going to be fined for a TM30 violation and has subsequently left the building with his wallet intact.

That is not disinformation, there are reports of foreigners being fined at Chonburi.

It's Immigrations consistency to be inconsistent that causes the confusion.

 

Read Jack's post 26 that confirms the inconsistency.

 

No different elsewhere around the Country.

My own Immigration request a new TM30 if you move to a new permanent residency, or if you leave and return to the same residency after re-entering the Country. I comply regardless and have never been fined.

Others haven't complied but never been fined. Others were caught out when renewing extensions or making a 90 day report and the IO's noticed a new entry stamp, so they were fined.

 

It's up to individuals to check the requirements with their own Immigration offices, then choose whether to comply or not.

I won't be paying their fines, so it's up to them.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

That is not disinformation, there are reports of foreigners being fined at Chonburi.

Members have posted about seeing people fined at Jomtien. Unfortunately, the few members who have been fined have not come back, closed the loop and posted WHY they were fined. Granted it will be couched in those statutes that you frequently post, but so far, most of those indignantly claiming to have been ripped off have not come back to define why they were at Immigration with their wives, landlords or whoever, especially those on retirement extensions who really don't need to lug anyone to Jomtien with them for anything. If we are getting imprecise reports of being fined, then we are agreed that we can only advise others to be aware of the situation. Historically when dealing with immigration, even on routine business, the old rule of thumb was to bring more paperwork than they need. However, with this state of stasis on what does and doesn't apply with regard to TM30 filing, depending on local whims, right now, less is best.

[overherebc]

3 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Not entirely correct.

The Act states;

Section 38 : The house – master , the owner or the possessor of the residence , or the hotel manager
where the alien , receiving permission to stay temporary in the Kingdom has stayed , must notify the
competent official of the Immigration Office located in the same area with that hours , dwelling place or
hotel, within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the alien concerned.

 

The House Master is defined under the Act as;

“ House Master ” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of
owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

 

Which is why many foreigners (not the landlords) are fined for not filing a TM30, because they are considered as either the main possessor or tenant of the residence.

I did say owner. ?

[Tanoshi]

4 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Members have posted about seeing people fined at Jomtien. Unfortunately, the few members who have been fined have not come back, closed the loop and posted WHY they were fined. Granted it will be couched in those statutes that you frequently post, but so far, most of those indignantly claiming to have been ripped off have not come back to define why they were at Immigration with their wives, landlords or whoever, especially those on retirement extensions who really don't need to lug anyone to Jomtien with them for anything. If we are getting imprecise reports of being fined, then we are agreed that we can only advise others to be aware of the situation. Historically when dealing with immigration, even on routine business, the old rule of thumb was to bring more paperwork than they need. However, with this state of stasis on what does and doesn't apply with regard to TM30 filing, depending on local whims, right now, less is best.

Is it still disinformation.

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

Is it still disinformation.

AFAIK, owning a condo is not an immigration status.

 

So no, it's incomplete information. There's no reference to his actual immigration status beyond 'I extended my visa.' What sort of visa? Was it a visa or was it an extension? It's well known how being imprecise with this important definition leads to incorrect advice and information. He claims to have handed in a TM30 three times this year. Why? Was he asked to do this? Did he hand it in at the 'special office'? Further down in the OP he suspects that his earlier TM30's have been ignored. But he doesn't say if he submitted it to the 'special office' or handed it to someone else. Other members who saw the big banner and decided to do the right thing have been fined whilst others haven't (been fined yet). Another incomplete picture.

 

He claims to have been fined 1600 baht for not reporting his return to immigration. That's an odd amount. I don't recall 1600 baht as an amount being mentioned by those being fined elsewhere either.

[jamie2009]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

AFAIK, owning a condo is not an immigration status.

 

So no, it's incomplete information. There's no reference to his actual immigration status beyond 'I extended my visa.' What sort of visa? Was it a visa or was it an extension. It's well known how being imprecise with this important definition leads to incorrect advice and information.

 

He claims to have been fined 1600 baht for not reporting his return to immigration. That's an odd amount. I don't recall 1600 baht as an amount being mentioned by those being fined elsewhere either.

When I had the ‘run in’ with Immigration earlier on in the year they wanted to fine me 3500 baht eventually letting me off.

They told me the owner would be fined 1600 Baht when she went to Immigration, She went the following day and I was unaware what appertained, she does not own multiple properties, she only has my place. She was probably unaware of TM28/30 scenario till I contacted her.

 

 

 

[NanLaew]

1 minute ago, jamie2009 said:

When I had the ‘run in’ with Immigration earlier on in the year they wanted to fine me 3500 baht eventually letting me off.

They told me the owner would be fined 1600 Baht when she went to Immigration, She went the following day and I was unaware what appertained, she does not own multiple properties, she only has my place. She was probably unaware of TM28/30 scenario till I contacted her.

 

Similar to the wife of my friend who has a house rented to a youngish Russian guy with family. He was doing some immigration business at Jomtien and was asked for a TM30. He didn't have it so he gave them her contact details. They called her and she went to their office where she was fined 2000 baht. They also ascertained she owned an apartment building but she told them all the residents were Thai, no foreigners. Next day, they visited the apartments unannounced and checked the books to make sure there were no foreigners staying.

 

The amount of the fines are as arbitrary as the enforcement of any statutes.

[Tanoshi]

5 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

The amount of the fines are as arbitrary as the enforcement of any statutes.

Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not
exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht
to 10,000 Baht.

 

2,000 is the maximum fine for a private residential property.

Maybe the office sets the fines, or the IO can use his discretion.

The usual fine at my IO is between 800 -1200 baht.

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, NanLaew said:

AFAIK, owning a condo is not an immigration status.

 

So no, it's incomplete information. There's no reference to his actual immigration status beyond 'I extended my visa.' What sort of visa? Was it a visa or was it an extension? It's well known how being imprecise with this important definition leads to incorrect advice and information. He claims to have handed in a TM30 three times this year. Why? Was he asked to do this? Did he hand it in at the 'special office'? Further down in the OP he suspects that his earlier TM30's have been ignored. But he doesn't say if he submitted it to the 'special office' or handed it to someone else. Other members who saw the big banner and decided to do the right thing have been fined whilst others haven't (been fined yet). Another incomplete picture.

 

He claims to have been fined 1600 baht for not reporting his return to immigration. That's an odd amount. I don't recall 1600 baht as an amount being mentioned by those being fined elsewhere either.

1600 Baht for everyone I watched getting fined on my most recent visit at Jomtien.  I don't know how they came up with 1600 Baht.  Receipts were being given.

 

Most often asked question: "How was I supposed to know about this." 

Reply: "This is the law in Thailand, you need to know."

 

I did not stop and ask these angry people what types of extensions they were on or seeking, but while I was in earshot, some said they had their own condo, and others were told they could ask their landlords to reimburse them for the fine - or have them come in and pay it themselves.  Some were old enough to be on retirement, others clearly not.  But, the bottom-line, "no service" for the applicant until the fine is paid and form filled.

 

Also, if returning to your old address, you can no longer just go in and say "same address" with copies of your old TM-30 slip + passport stamp-in page - you must now fill out the complete TM-30 anew, each time you return to the country, even if only gone a couple days, and they won't give you a number for the queue if you don't.  

 

Copies needed from the passport: Old TM-30 slip, Passport main-page, Visa page (if applicable), TM-6 page, Stamp-in page.  

No new copies of contract or landlord-docs if returning to the same address.

[NanLaew]

30 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

1600 Baht for everyone I watched getting fined on my most recent visit at Jomtien.  I don't know how they came up with 1600 Baht.  Receipts were being given.

 

Most often asked question: "How was I supposed to know about this." 

Reply: "This is the law in Thailand, you need to know."

 

I did not stop and ask these angry people what types of extensions they were on or seeking, but while I was in earshot, some said they had their own condo, and others were told they could ask their landlords to reimburse them for the fine - or have them come in and pay it themselves.  Some were old enough to be on retirement, others clearly not.  But, the bottom-line, "no service" for the applicant until the fine is paid and form filled.

 

Also, if returning to your old address, you can no longer just go in and say "same address" with copies of your old TM-30 slip + passport stamp-in page - you must now fill out the complete TM-30 anew, each time you return to the country, even if only gone a couple days, and they won't give you a number for the queue if you don't.  

 

Copies needed from the passport: Old TM-30 slip, Passport main-page, Visa page (if applicable), TM-6 page, Stamp-in page.  

No new copies of contract or landlord-docs if returning to the same address.

Grim news indeed JT, very grim. The screws are being tightened for sure and the law does exist but this filing a new TM30 each and every time you leave your 'home' for more than 24-hours is all a bit absurd. Are you saying the 'slip' that they affix to the passport on the previous 'check-in' has no value and the form must be resubmitted? Then they affix a worthless, new 'slip' in the passport?

 

When you are saying 'no service' until they paid the fines, that infers they were on other business such as 90-day or extending and got referred to the TM30 room? Or did they go to the TM30 room themselves to self-report? Or were they getting directed there by the 'receptionists' after they had a look at what paperwork they had and ascertained what service they needed? For the past 4 years, I arrive with the paperwork already completed, say exactly what I want, they never ask to see my paperwork and give me my autoqueue ticket. At the residence letter desk, the 90-day report desk and the annual extension desk, they never ask for a TM30 and I never offer one.

 

At the risk of probably repeating what you may have stated earlier in this or other threads, what exactly was your route to the TM30 room? Or were you watching from close by and haven't been stung yet?

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

The usual fine at my IO is between 800 -1200 baht.

Which IO is that Tanoshi?