Tm-30 fine

[JackThompson]

18 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Grim news indeed JT, very grim. The screws are being tightened for sure and the law does exist but this filing a new TM30 each and every time you leave your 'home' for more than 24-hours is all a bit absurd.

I believe it is "out of country" enforcement only.  The new TM-6 and entry-stamp gives you away.  In theory, and "out of area" hotel-booking would go into the TM-30 system - but I haven't heard stories of this being used at Jomtien to fine in-country travelers.

 

18 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Are you saying the 'slip' that they affix to the passport on the previous 'check-in' has no value and the form must be resubmitted? Then they affix a worthless, new 'slip' in the passport?

The old slip has value only in that it must be copied and submitted with the new form and other copies - especially, for "returning to same address," reporting.

 

18 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

When you are saying 'no service' until they paid the fines, that infers they were on other business such as 90-day or extending and got referred to the TM30 room? Or did they go to the TM30 room themselves to self-report? Or were they getting directed there by the 'receptionists' after they had a look at what paperwork they had and ascertained what service they needed?

 

For the past 4 years, I arrive with the paperwork already completed, say exactly what I want, they never ask to see my paperwork and give me my autoqueue ticket. At the residence letter desk, the 90-day report desk and the annual extension desk, they never ask for a TM30 and I never offer one.

I am sure in 2 cases they were told - "no pay, no service."  Not sure on all, though.

 

It is still possible that those doing retirement-extensions remain unmolested.  I know you must have it up-to-date for family and tourist extensions.  The older applicants might have been married vs retired, but not all had wives speaking for them.  If the wife is present, the entire conversation is with her, of course.  The single males could have been there for married 90-days or other - I can't say.

 

It's 1600 Baht only - so if what you are doing is working, not sure I would recommend changing it.  But given the number of people in that line, I have to wonder - is it more enforcement of different types, or just high-season? 

 

18 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

At the risk of probably repeating what you may have stated earlier in this or other threads, what exactly was your route to the TM30 room? Or were you watching from close by and haven't been stung yet?

I heard of it here, and needed it for a TR-Visa extension.  This was years ago.  Since then, I have been faithfully complying.  No fines yet.  The latest was gleaned from the hallway and in the room - they bring in about 4 to 6 at a time to process.

[Maestro]

15 hours ago, jamie2009 said:

To me as I have said before the owner of my house should submit a TM 30...

 

If the owner submits the TM.30, you don't have to do it. If he doesn't,  the responsibility to summit it falls on the house-master or the possessor, both of whom are you.

[Get Real]

The maximum fine is not set to 2000 Bath, even if that is the believed amount of many. At discretion of the Immigration Officer, he/she has the right to give a fine up to 5000 Bath for a negligence to file a TM30.

[Tanoshi]

4 minutes ago, Get Real said:

The maximum fine is not set to 2000 Bath, even if that is the believed amount of many. At discretion of the Immigration Officer, he/she has the right to give a fine up to 5000 Bath for a negligence to file a TM30.

That's for failing to report a change of new address on a TM28, or filing a late 90 day report.

Section 76 : Any alien, alien, who fails to comply with the provisions of Section 37(2),(3),(4)or(5) shall be
punished with a fine not exceeding 5,000 Baht and with and additional fine not exceeding 200 Baht for
each day which passes until the law is complied with.

 

Failing to report an aliens arrival at an address by the 'house master' TM30

Section 77 : Whoever fails to comply with the provision of Section 38, shall be punished with a fine not
exceeding 2,000 Baht. If said person is a hotel manager, he shall be punished with a fine from 2,000 Baht
to 10,000 Baht.

[Tanoshi]

8 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Grim news indeed JT, very grim. The screws are being tightened for sure and the law does exist but this filing a new TM30 each and every time you leave your 'home' for more than 24-hours is all a bit absurd.

Indeed the law does state that Nan.

 

Quote

4. If the alien travels to any province and will stay there longer than twenty – four hours , such
alien must notify the police official of the police station for that area within forty – eight hours from the time
of arrival.

However I have yet to read a report of anyone being fined for not complying with that particular section.

My IO confirmed they don't enforce that particular section.

IMHO that section is outdated and unworkable in 2017, 50 years after they wrote the Act.

 

It was written at a time before Immigration became a separate division of the Police force, and IO's were few and far apart. At that time local Police stations took the brunt of foreigners in their jurisdiction.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Tanoshi

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Indeed the law does state that Nan.

Where? That is not stated in section 38 for the TM30 reporting. It only states the report needs to be done within 24 hours of arrival at the residence.

[Tanoshi]

22 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Where? That is not stated in section 38 for the TM30 reporting. It only states the report needs to be done within 24 hours of arrival at the residence.

The law states both the foreigner and the house master should file if staying at a different address for more than 24 hours.

We are talking in particular about 'visiting' other Provinces within Thailand.

 

Other than hotels or guest houses, I don't know of any foreigners, or house masters of private residences, or Immigration offices that enforce filing for staying temporarily 'out of province' if it's not a new change of permanent residency.

[ubonjoe]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

The law states both the foreigner and the house master should file if staying at a different address for more than 24 hours.

We are talking in particular about 'visiting' other Provinces within Thailand.

That is in section 37 which is not normally enforced.

If a person is hopping around the country staying in hotels and etc then they do the reporting under sections 38.

There is no requirement when returning back to your permanent residence to do another report under section 38.

[NanLaew]

9 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Which IO is that Tanoshi?

Your location is Isaan but what IO do you report to? I am not being nosey; Isaan is a big place and maybe knowing that your particular IO does fine for TM30 crimes, it could be handy for someone else using the same IO to know.

[NanLaew]

8 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I believe it is "out of country" enforcement only.  The new TM-6 and entry-stamp gives you away.  In theory, and "out of area" hotel-booking would go into the TM-30 system - but I haven't heard stories of this being used at Jomtien to fine in-country travelers.

I guess the chronology is important. You say you started reporting TM30's diligently 'years ago'. Up until mid-2016, I was out of country so frequently that 90-day reports were not needed and I filed the annual retirement extensions without drama. In the past 18 months, I have traveled outside the country less and filed a couple of 90-day reports instead but again, without drama. All this at Jomtien.

[NanLaew]

52 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Indeed the law does state that Nan.

 

However I have yet to read a report of anyone being fined for not complying with that particular section.

My IO confirmed they don't enforce that particular section.

IMHO that section is outdated and unworkable in 2017, 50 years after they wrote the Act.

 

It was written at a time before Immigration became a separate division of the Police force, and IO's were few and far apart. At that time local Police stations took the brunt of foreigners in their jurisdiction.

I agree that the rather old-fashioned, up to you form of reporting as legislated way back whenever, is totally inappropriate for the volumes of travelers, either tourist, semi-resident or the full-on married and.or retired and staying here 'full time'. Obviously the junta sent a memo to all IO's and the one's with a high farang quotient have taken up the cudgel with Chiang Mai being the biggest enforcers. It looks like Pattaya may be playing catch-up real fast though. Meanwhile, the quieter, less contaminated IO's mostly ignore the memo.

[NanLaew]

29 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is in section 37 which is not normally enforced.

If a person is hopping around the country staying in hotels and etc then they do the reporting under sections 38.

There is no requirement when returning back to your permanent residence to do another report under section 38.

Here's a few for-instances for you guys to ponder.

 

If I stay at a 2-star hotel in my wife's hometown while visiting and they (as always) never bother with getting me to sign in, show passport or anything, in their obvious lack of being compliant with their legal requirement to report any and all foreigners, does the onus then fall on me to file a TM28 at the local immigration office?

 

If I do, will the local IO come down like a ton of bricks on my super friendly, no hassle, free-coffee-in-the-morning-because-I-stay-there-a-lot hotel and thus become a welcome as the proverbial turd in a punchbowl?

 

Does the same TM28 filing apply if I stay overnight at my buddy's retirement ranch because we drank too much and I fell asleep on the sofa?

 

Or does he have to file the TM30 and I am absolved of TM28 duty?

[Tanoshi]

16 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Your location is Isaan but what IO do you report to? I am not being nosey; Isaan is a big place and maybe knowing that your particular IO does fine for TM30 crimes, it could be handy for someone else using the same IO to know.

We have 4 properties in Amnat, Kalasin and 2 in Roi Et Provinces.

 

I sometimes use Amnat or Roi Et, but I have to file the TM28 and new TM30's whenever I change office.

Amnat, Roi Et, Khon Kaen and Korat have all fined for failing to file TM30's to my knowledge.

 

A local Roi Et expat distributes a monthly Newsletter to Isaan expats, so we are updated with local news and Immigration procedures/changes regularly.

[jamie2009]

I have colleagues who come here for 6 week trips every few month, they obtain their Visa in the UK.

One owns a Condo, he never needs to go Jomtien as he is never staying longer than 90 Days and doesn’t do a TM30 so how could he be fined ?

So in effect if you never have go to Jomtien you won’t be fined.

If you plead ignorance they say it’s the law but surely some form of literature should be handed out on arrival at the airport or by the Carrier ?

How many people research the laws of a popular Tourist destination before deciding too travel there. I bet that if potential tourists did for Thailand they would be looking elsewhere due the archaic laws.

My Thai G.F. was in the UK for 3 months this year on a Visitor Visa, we arrived at Heathrow, very friendly I.O. fella, few questions then that was it.

We left 3 months later, no visits too any Immigration Offices, 90 Day Report etc, just an email a few weeks before the expiry date of her Visa reminding her it was due too expire.

i have the impression that foreigners are a ‘cash cow’ for Immigration.

 

[ubonjoe]

7 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Does the same TM28 filing apply if I stay overnight at my buddy's retirement ranch because we drank too much and I fell asleep on the sofa?

Forget about the TM28 filing it is not enforced.

I have stayed in lots of hotels over the years. Some I am certain did the reporting since they did a copy of passport but not a question from my local immigration about doing a report of any kind. When checking with my wife a few even wanted her ID card as well.

[Tanoshi]

18 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

If I stay at a 2-star hotel in my wife's hometown while visiting and they (as always) never bother with getting me to sign in, show passport or anything, in their obvious lack of being compliant with their legal requirement to report any and all foreigners, does the onus then fall on me to file a TM28 at the local immigration office?

 

If I do, will the local IO come down like a ton of bricks on my super friendly, no hassle, free-coffee-in-the-morning-because-I-stay-there-a-lot hotel and thus become a welcome as the proverbial turd in a punchbowl?

This is where by the letter of the law and what is actually enforced causes confusion.

Whether the hotel files a TM30 or not, is not your concern.

 

Filing a TM28 is only if you change permanent address, not temporary accommodation. (Just my opinion).

Don't worry and keep smelling like a rose in that punchbowl and enjoy the free coffee.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Tanoshi

[jamie2009]

I am on a ‘Retirement Visa’ living in a rented house, my owner lives abroad.

i never stay longer than 90 Days at a time so no reporting required.

My owner is unaware that I leave Thailand every couple of months.

For me the TM28 is for change of address, I did one when I moved in last year.

Therefore should the owner be filing a TM30 every time I return albeit as I said she isn’t aware when I leave and return ?

 

[andre47]

8 minutes ago, jamie2009 said:

If you plead ignorance they say it’s the law but surely some form of literature should be handed out on arrival at the airport or by the Carrier ?

How many people research the laws of a popular Tourist destination before deciding too travel there. I bet that if potential tourists did for Thailand they would be looking elsewhere due the archaic laws.

 

If you travel into another country and you stay in a hotel or similar you don't have to report to the immigration because the hotel does it for you. If you stay in a private residence you must report. As far as I know you have to report your stay in every country, not just in Thailand. Most countries does not enforce it or in most cases the authorities don't know about your residence.

[NanLaew]

22 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

We have 4 properties in Amnat, Kalasin and 2 in Roi Et Provinces.

 

I sometimes use Amnat or Roi Et, but I have to file the TM28 and new TM30's whenever I change office.

Amnat, Roi Et, Khon Kaen and Korat have all fined for failing to file TM30's to my knowledge.

 

A local Roi Et expat distributes a monthly Newsletter to Isaan expats, so we are updated with local news and Immigration procedures/changes regularly.

You are indeed all over the shop and in normal circumstances I would say you could cherry-pick the IO of least resistance. But since the ones you do mention all have some sort of history of enforcement (I still see it as arbitrary, based on how magnanimous or indolent the particular officer you are dealing with feels), it looks like trying to dodge the bullet is on a hiding for nothing and just filing the darn thing would indeed bring peace of mind. Nice grapevine you guys have there as well.

 

A friend of mine, an established businessman in Isaan, does his extensions at Khon Kaen despite his 'home' being in Udon. This is because the Udon IO tends to make a real meal out of extension renewals for anyone doing one related to their business whereas KK's process is a breeze. There's another guy with a different business in the same town and he deals with Nong Khai IO for his 'personalization' for the same reason that the Udon IO's are pedants. However, AFAIK, when it comes to the regular marriage or retirement extension and 90-day reporting for the individual, Udon IO don't care about TM28's and TM30's... for now.

Edited December 16, 2017 by NanLaew

[jamie2009]

2 minutes ago, andre47 said:

If you travel into another country and you stay in a hotel or similar you don't have to report to the immigration because the hotel does it for you. If you stay in a private residence you must report. As far as I know you have to report your stay in every country, not just in Thailand. Most countries does not enforce it or in most cases the authorities don't know about your residence.

 

The only reporting my G.F did was at Border Contol at Heathrow, she was staying at my house. The address was not on her Visa and they never asked where she was staying.

It might have been entered on a central Data Base from the information she provided on her application but they don’t physically check she was staying there.

 

 

[JackThompson]

16 minutes ago, jamie2009 said:

I have colleagues who come here for 6 week trips every few month, they obtain their Visa in the UK.

One owns a Condo, he never needs to go Jomtien as he is never staying longer than 90 Days and doesn’t do a TM30 so how could he be fined ?

So in effect if you never have go to Jomtien you won’t be fined.

Yes.  May opt to use Visas to stay here to avoid dealing with Immigration Offices entirely.  Neither TM-30s nor 90-Day reports are enforced at immigration-checkpoints - only at offices, so only comes up if you "need something" from them.

 

Also, some offices require extra documents for extensions (not on the official list), which some can not get, though paying 10x more to an agent somehow bypasses these.  Many people faced with this dilemma also use Visas instead of extensions to avoid dealing with their office.

 

3 minutes ago, jamie2009 said:

I am on a ‘Retirement Visa’ living in a rented house, my owner lives abroad.

i never stay longer than 90 Days at a time so no reporting required.

My owner is unaware that I leave Thailand every couple of months.

For me the TM28 is for change of address, I did one when I moved in last year.

Therefore should the owner be filing a TM30 every time I return albeit as I said she isn’t aware when I leave and return ?

The owner couldn't know, which makes this an unworkable law, which is why they have bent it and co-mingled it's terms with TM-28 law to make it "your problem" for reporting. 

 

If you will ever want anything from your local Immigration Office,

- And - your office is one of the ones enforcing this at all,

- And - if the way they enforce it affects your trips (some have been reported not to enforce it for short trips),

-  Then - you (not the owner) would need to report every time you return from a trip.

[Tanoshi]

35 minutes ago, jamie2009 said:

I am on a ‘Retirement Visa’ living in a rented house, my owner lives abroad.

i never stay longer than 90 Days at a time so no reporting required.

My owner is unaware that I leave Thailand every couple of months.

For me the TM28 is for change of address, I did one when I moved in last year.

Therefore should the owner be filing a TM30 every time I return albeit as I said she isn’t aware when I leave and return ?

 

That depends on whether your Immigration office enforce filing a new TM 30 when returning 'out of Country'.

No need to file another TM28 unless you moved to a new permanent address.

You file a new TM6 informing your address when re-entering.

 

You can file the TM30 as the occupier and tenant of the property. In this situation you are also regarded as the 'House Master'.

I've done this many times previously, but always supplied a copy of the owners Tabien Baan and ID card.

 

If we knew which Immigration office you file at, we may be able to advise further.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Tanoshi

[Tanoshi]

20 minutes ago, andre47 said:

If you travel into another country and you stay in a hotel or similar you don't have to report to the immigration because the hotel does it for you.

Why would a hotel in a foreign Country be required to report your 'arrival' with them to Thai Immigration.

That's nonsense!

[Tanoshi]

16 minutes ago, jamie2009 said:

 

The only reporting my G.F did was at Border Contol at Heathrow, she was staying at my house. The address was not on her Visa and they never asked where she was staying.

It might have been entered on a central Data Base from the information she provided on her application but they don’t physically check she was staying there.

 

 

Completely different Immigration rules in the UK.

She informed her address of residence on the application form and your details as the sponsor were also detailed on that same form.

You'd be the first person they'd contact if she violated the rules.

 

Thailand likes to track the movements of foreigners like Communist Countries do, although it's now supposed to be a Democratic Country.

[andre47]

19 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Why would a hotel in a foreign Country be required to report your 'arrival' with them to Thai Immigration.

That's nonsense!

Thai Immigration?? NO!! The immigration of the country where are you traveling to. :) 

[JackThompson]

2 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Completely different Immigration rules in the UK.

She informed her address of residence on the application form and your details as the sponsor were also detailed on that same form.

You'd be the first person they'd contact if she violated the rules.

 

Thailand likes to track the movements of foreigners like Communist Countries do, although it's now supposed to be a Democratic Country.

I wish my country (USA) was as diligent in tracking foreigners as Thailand - or even more so.  This would have saved many lives in the last 20 years - and tens of millions of our citizen's livelihoods and families.  "Our" government have no problem spying on we citizens (who are treated like the enemy, to the extent we object to the "globalization" efforts of the transnational corporations) but let the foreigners - even illegal ones - wreck citizen-lives with impunity.

 

That said, Thailand could modernize its system considerably - such as tying in the TM-6 system with the TM-30 system with the 90-day system. 

 

They should also provide advance-notice to people entering the country, so they are aware of what is required in-advance.  Hitting people up with fines for laws they were not aware of is something one would expect from a low-class country - not what Thailand wants to project as its image.

[crazygreg44]

On 13.12.2017 at 6:48 AM, juice777 said:

I haven't been reporting after I come back to Thailand. When all this first started I thought I didn't have to. The agency out side put the slip in my passport when they did the paperwork. Then my condo agency did the same, because I haven't changed address or stayed in a hotel in Thailand for a few years I was under the impression that I don't need to.Now I just don't want to rock the boat by reporting in when I come back on my visa runs.

 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

I am really annoyed . . .why does filing the old address under which one resided & reported before leaving Thailand and returning to, into the Arrival Card, not count as "registering" when entering Thailand again?  Then, the law says you only need to register TM30 if your address in Thailand CHANGED. It didn't CHANGE,  he came back to live under the same address as before, so TM30 is apparently NOT FOR HIM

 

Is all this crap just a side earner for Immigration employees??

Edited December 16, 2017 by crazygreg44

[jamie2009]

10 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I wish my country (USA) was as diligent in tracking foreigners as Thailand - or even more so.  This would have saved many lives in the last 20 years - and tens of millions of our citizen's livelihoods and families.  "Our" government have no problem spying on we citizens (who are treated like the enemy, to the extent we object to the "globalization" efforts of the transnational corporations) but let the foreigners - even illegal ones - wreck citizen-lives with impunity.

 

That said, Thailand could modernize its system considerably - such as tying in the TM-6 system with the TM-30 system with the 90-day system. 

 

They should also provide advance-notice to people entering the country, so they are aware of what is required in-advance.  Hitting people up with fines for laws they were not aware of is something one would expect from a low-class country - not what Thailand wants to project as its image.

Why complete an Arrival Card, do they actually input the info, they have no way of checking you are actually staying at that address.pThe I.O. doesn’t when passing through Immigration, is there a big office where people sit all day and inputting the Info of thousands of Arrival Cards ?

For me complete one when you arrive at your Hotel, if you are staying in rented accommodation the owner to provided the Form, all to be forwarded to Immigration ?

Edited December 16, 2017 by jamie2009

[Tanoshi]

32 minutes ago, andre47 said:

Thai Immigration?? NO!! The immigration of the country where are you traveling to. :) 

Different strokes for different folks.

Every Country has it's own Immigration requirements.

[JackThompson]

22 minutes ago, crazygreg44 said:

I am really annoyed . . .why does filing the old address under which one resided & reported before leaving Thailand and returning to, into the Arrival Card, not count as "registering" when entering Thailand again?  Then, the law says you only need to register TM30 if your address in Thailand CHANGED. It didn't CHANGE,  he came back to live under the same address as before, so TM30 is apparently NOT FOR HIM

 

Is all this crap just a side earner for Immigration employees??

• Unfortunately, the law is what the official you are dealing with (who can back his play by force) says it is.  I am not sure if there is any appeal process available to foreigners, vis-a-vis immigration policies.  If there is, I would like to know more about it.
• The TM-6 is in no way related to the TM-30 - though one could argue that it should be, in a good-system designed to meet the stated goal of tracking where foreigners are living (a goal which I respect). 
• They are handing out receipts in Jomtien, so this does not appear to be a tea-money scheme.  Maybe the local office and/or district gets a cut of the fines they collect to use for official spending, as is done in my passport-country.