Pick-up sitting ban resurrected for New Year travel

[Airbagwill]

6 hours ago, The Deerhunter said:

I see grass.  Perhaps it is a rural area and kosher.

I see immigrant labour

[Airbagwill]

48 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

What percentage of road deaths can be attributed to people riding in the back of a pickup?  Are there any statistics for this, and, if so, is anyone willing to admit of such?

 

Personal observation would lead me to conclude that the relative risk of death in the back of a pickup is low.  The following road safety issues deserve greater attention.

 

1. Lack of courtesy.  Drivers who cannot be bothered to use their turn signals to indicate for other drivers what their intentions may be, have no understanding of the importance of doing so in terms of safety.  The same holds true of drivers who choose to drive in the wrong direction, against one-way traffic; drivers who tootle along at an unreasonably low speed in heavily trafficked roadways; drivers who continue to follow the vehicles ahead of them through the intersection after the light has turned red; drivers who leave no following distance between them and the vehicle ahead; drivers who cannot be bothered to use the correct lane, or who occupy portions of two lanes at once, preventing others from being able to pass them; drivers who turn onto a road, perhaps without even looking, completely unmindful of other traffic already traveling at speed; drivers who continue operating a vehicle without functioning headlights, brakelights, or turn lights; etc.  These simple "courtesies" create a culture prone to road rage and accidents.

 

2. U-turns.  Forcing traffic to change directions via a stop in the otherwise "passing lane" (the fastest lane of traffic, supposedly) while waiting for a break in oncoming traffic in which to turn back the other direction is to pit the fastest vehicles against the slowest--a sure recipe for fatal collisions.  Such fatalities would be incurred regardless of the mode of transport, and, depending upon the visibility and traffic conditions of the location, such fatalities may occur even with skilled drivers.

 

3. Alcohol.  The majority of fatalities on the roadways of Thailand are known to be related to the consumption of alcohol.  Prohibiting the purchase of spirits on special holidays does nothing to prevent people from stocking up and consuming their intoxicants at will.  Driving while under the influence of this drug poison reduces natural fears and sensibilities of danger, increases the lag time in responding to events, and impairs proper judgment in making safe decisions.  Even a very limited exposure to alcohol can obstruct proper brain function and render the consumer unfit for driving.  Precisely for this reason, many countries have strict laws regarding the limits of detectable blood-alcohol levels for drivers.

 

While some of these three points can be related to poor traffic engineering (e.g. U-turns), or to the proper enforcement of safety measures (e.g. working lights), the bulk of the problem lies squarely in the realm of culture.  To legislate changes in culture is virtually to attempt the impossible.  Education works better than legislation where culture is concerned. 

 

My suggestion: Hire foreign driving instructors to train a special group in Thailand's police force in how to properly conduct a safe-driving course, and then require all first-time licensees to complete such a course prior to licensure.  Make sure the course includes adequate instruction in the mechanics of vehicle operation, such as the proper use of gears and of brakes in reducing speed, and gives ample warning of the potential consequences of ignoring traffic safety issues--make this fact-based and graphic!

Yet another post of someone's favourite  bugbear, but no real understanding of the underlying issues

[Happyman58]

This is the way i look at it It is law is it not that people are not allowed to ride in the back of pick-ups ? Is the law supposed to be upheld by the police? Trying to hold a straight face here while i write thisBut then again it is law that people must not speed, wear helmets, not drink drive blah blah blah but none of them are upheld so i cant see this going any further

Its is like Yogi Bear( Minster for Transport saying to Boo Boo ( Police commissioner) Can you do your job Boo Boo and uphold the law? And Boo Boo replies I will try Yogi but i dont like the chances of this being done

[Blackheart1916]

What ban?

[bannork]

9 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

With less than 1% of the deaths?

Fair point. it's just their deaths are more horrific. Burnt alive in a vehicle they cannot get out of in time.

[Airbagwill]

6 minutes ago, bannork said:

Fair point. it's just their deaths are more horrific. Burnt alive in a vehicle they cannot get out of in time.

Yes.. The media "love" plane, bus and rail crashes yet statistically they are by far the safest types of travel.

There are horrendously unsafe practices in bus/van transport in Thailand that go unchecked but people fail to realize that obsessing with single issues is not an effective way to address  road  safety   in the kingdom.

[Dave67]

I'm sure the BIB will be enforcing this with their usual enthusiasm

[JAG]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

Yet another post of someone's favourite  bugbear, but no real understanding of the underlying issues

Come on then, people keep posting reasoned, thoughtful ideas for reducing the catastrophic level of death and injury on Thailand's roads, and you keep responding to them like this.

How about giving us an equally cogent and convincing summary of what are, in your opinion, the underlying issues?

[Airbagwill]

16 minutes ago, JAG said:

Come on then, people keep posting reasoned, thoughtful ideas for reducing the catastrophic level of death and injury on Thailand's roads, and you keep responding to them like this.

How about giving us an equally cogent and convincing summary of what are, in your opinion, the underlying issues?

Firstly I have given  several summaries - if you care to read them.

Secondly I can honestly say that I've hardly seen a single "reasoned, thoughtful ideas for reducing the catastrophic level of death and injury on Thailand's roads" - the logic appears to be that because someone can drive a car, they are an expert on road safety.

The standards of thought on the matter by both TV members and the Thai aurthorities is quite e frankly abysmal

[tinca tinca]

21 hours ago, Dmaxdan said:

As everyday is a deadly day on Thailand's roads, shouldn't this law be enforced all year round?

they do not have the brains to think of this.....DO THEY??

[tinca tinca]

8 hours ago, Psimbo said:

For all the hand-wringers what do you suggest to move agricultural workers and others around? Minibuses are not practical and the drivers are just as bad. Companies are not going to run two vehicle fleets- it's economically nonviable.

 

The practice should not be banned entirely-  the country would grind to a halt.

 

Ban them on divided highways and other high speed roads but allow them on rural roads where they are needed.

 

The true problem is not people in the back - it's poor driving skills and an inability to read the road ahead. An empty pickup is far easier to brake than one with 16-20 people in the back but Somchai doesn't get that.

why say this....surely a pick up is built to CARRY GOODS (or a big weight) so 16 to 20 people in the back is WEIGHT....which the braking system should COPE with!!!!!

[thailand49]

This law got to take a backseat to all the other laws that aren't being enforced, as we know there are what now a million or so?  To some the more laws it is a Nanny State, here the more the better for the cops to collect their supplement income.

[JAG]

23 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Firstly I have given  several summaries - if you care to read them.

Secondly I can honestly say that I've hardly seen a single "reasoned, thoughtful ideas for reducing the catastrophic level of death and injury on Thailand's roads" - the logic appears to be that because someone can drive a car, they are an expert on road safety.

The standards of thought on the matter by both TV members and the Thai aurthorities is quite e frankly abysmal

I've just looked through your posts on this thread. One makes comments (with which I agree) about the social implications of this law (were it ever to be enforced). The rest dismiss other posters suggestions. The suggestion is very much that you understand the matter better than they do. Nowhere do you explain how.

[Dave67]

People in many countries with little transport infrastructure and high levels of poverty are forced into taking the dangerous option, the dangerous option them becomes the norm. A few days ago I was in the car with my wife  and a girl only in her early 20s with two kids around 4 to 5 on her motorbike with her one in front one behind her, I got bit angry as did the missus  and then  I thought what choice has that girl got maybe she has to take them to work with her, maybe she's taking them to a nursery. 

 

We all know what the other issues are and I don't think they will ever be addressed

[AGareth2]

22 hours ago, rooster59 said:

A top level ministerial meeting on road safety has told the police to enforce the ban on people sitting in the back, and even the cab, of pick-ups this New Year.

ban them from the drivers seat might help

[AGareth2]

13 hours ago, ThaiFelix said:

Exempt in rural areas??  I dont understand, I thought that was where the bulk of the deaths were?

that  is where the bulk of votes for the next election will come from

[superal]

19 hours ago, maraudingscot said:

Once and for all. The number of people travelling in the back of a pickup (unless grossly overloaded) will not make it a higher possibility of bekng in a crash or not. It is the STANDARD of driving that causes crashes.

Overtaking on blind bends

Overtaking irrelevant if vehicle coming in other direction, because you want to be in front of the vehicle infront!

Trying to squeese into the small gap infront.

Driving at night with no lights

Driving under the influence of drugs or drink

Overtaking on the inside and trying to get through the tiny gap. Therefore hitting another vehicle.

Running red lights

Basically, not giving a total <deleted> about anyone else, causes accidents

 

IF everyone drove sensibily then fewer accident

 

Plus   pulling out from a side road and not looking right 

        making a manoeuvre and signalling after ( if they remember )

        large slow trucks in the outside lane 

        large truck overtaking another truck ( when you were about to pass them both and no other traffic behind you )

        and  taking a minute or more to do so .

        driving the wrong way against the traffic on the hard shoulder 

        pondering at traffic lights when they turn green ( as long as they get through its OK )

        overladen pick ups 

        never let you in to the main stream traffic when coming from a side street 

      

   Not to mention the motor cycles . 

 

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, tinca tinca said:

they do not have the brains to think of this.....DO THEY??

At this time of year with families going home there is a preponderance of pickups with pople in the back - it won't help the death figures significantly, but it will target the poorest families.

[kiwikeith]

23 hours ago, BigBadGeordie said:

This is indicative of selective law enforcement in Thailand.

 

If it is on the statute, enforce it 24/7/365. But oh no, lets enforce it (or not) at selective times of the year, in some areas, excluding rural areas.

 

DPM Prawit and other government ministers want to know what has happened about the "ban" since last Songkran. Easy, absolutely nothing. Someone must be guilty of deriliction of duty, or is that regulation not being enforced, unless it involves "the other side?

 

Most Thais will not read about this or know about it , let alone take any notice of it.

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

I've just looked through your posts on this thread. One makes comments (with which I agree) about the social implications of this law (were it ever to be enforced). The rest dismiss other posters suggestions. The suggestion is very much that you understand the matter better than they do. Nowhere do you explain how.

You actually don't have an argument, do you?

If you disagree with something I've said point it out.

the fact is I've posted copiously on road safety and I don't keep track of which thread they are on...I've laid out my case on several occasions and quite frankly I have little time people who's hallmark of not having an argument themselves is to ask others to reiterate or cite what they have already put forward in a reasoned argument.

 

It is pretty apparent that people think that because they can drive a car, they are "experts" (meaningless word) on road safety - they are patently not so but are in reality grossly under-informed about road safety and in particular road safety in Thailand. As such they really have no place posting on the subject.

They claim to have "opinions" but they aren't actually opinions, they are just unreasoned blurtings based on a jumble of their own prejudices.

If you want to join the conversation constructively may I suggest you spend a few weeks or months researching (not searching) the matter or if you are really desperate, trawl through my posts over the last year or so.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

30 minutes ago, superal said:

Plus   pulling out from a side road and not looking right 

        making a manoeuvre and signalling after ( if they remember )

        large slow trucks in the outside lane 

        large truck overtaking another truck ( when you were about to pass them both and no other traffic behind you )

        and  taking a minute or more to do so .

        driving the wrong way against the traffic on the hard shoulder 

        pondering at traffic lights when they turn green ( as long as they get through its OK )

        overladen pick ups 

        never let you in to the main stream traffic when coming from a side street 

      

   Not to mention the motor cycles . 

 

not a clue - this is just common knowledge and anecdotal - it can be seen in countries all over th world - it may be a symptom of the lack of road safety but listing the "bleedin' obvious" (J. Cleese) is neither and argument or a proosal that that will have any effect on road safety.

we have all seen "bad drivers" all over the world so what good is telling us about what we already know - or does it just give you a felling of superiority over Thai people in general? In which case you are throughly mistaken - they see it every day and know how to handle it. It seems to me that if you constantly get indignant whilst driving in Thailand you shouldn't be driving.

[Billy Bloggs]

How will the police enforce this from their office, oh thats right some will be sitting road side in tents, so they will catch the dumb ones who use that road.

 

[AsianAtHeart]

4 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

You actually don't have an argument, do you?

If you disagree with something I've said point it out.

the fact is I've posted copiously on road safety and I don't keep track of which thread they are on...I've laid out my case on several occasions and quite frankly I have little time people who's hallmark of not having an argument themselves is to ask others to reiterate or cite what they have already put forward in a reasoned argument.

 

The fact is that people think that because they can drive a car, they are "experts" (meaningless word) on road safety - they are patently not and grossly under-informed about road safety and in particular road safety in Thailand. assuch they really have no place in posting on the subject.

They claim to have "opinions" but they aren't, they are just unreasoned blurtings based on a jumble of their own prejudices.

if you want to constructively join the conversation may I suggest you spend a few weeks or months rsearching the matter or if you are really desperate, trawl through my posts over the last year or so.

Mr. Airbagwill, it appears you were foresighted enough to choose an appropriate moniker. 

 

When you address someone's clearly well-reasoned post as if it were but "unreasoned blurtings," as you say, do you expect people to highly regard whatever else your commentary may be?  Perhaps you feel, as was pointed out, rather superior to everyone else here.  Certainly, it is your right to feel so--whether true or not.  But to expect others to agree with your presumptuousness is to demonstrate lack of social understanding.

 

I will say this: the suggestion I made in my earlier post is but one of many I could make, and I nowhere suggested it should be the only course of action to be taken, nor that it would be the most effective.  It was simply my suggestion.  I may have more driving experience than you, particularly as regards driving in Thailand.  I am one of a very few foreigners to have possessed a commercial driver's license in Thailand permitting me to drive 6- and 10-wheel trucks--which I did, including over much of the hill country of Northern Thailand.  In my driving experience in Thailand over the decades that have passed since, I have had many experiences, but never once have I been in an accident.  As regards driving in general, I am licensed in my home country to operate trucks and buses, and have extensive driving experience there as well, all without so much as a ticket.  I, personally, regard a measure of my success as being attributable to the wise and patient instruction afforded me in the driver's education class which I took in high school prior to obtaining my first driver's license at the tender age of 15.  Driving has been part of my job description in a number of the jobs I have had.  Many of the mistakes made by Thai drivers stem from pure ignorance.  Their lack of understanding is of such a degree that I believe foreign instructors would be most advantageous to help the Thai government develop a curriculum for driver's education coursework that might help adjust the culture, if such be possible, one driver at a time, beginning with the newly licensed.

[canuckamuck]

You can hypothesis all you want about answers but I think People in Thailand drive very well for a country that doesn't have traffic law enforcement. Take away the highway patrol in the US or Canada and you will see some crazy action there too.

[superal]

35 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

not a clue - this is just common knowledge and anecdotal - it can be seen in countries all over th world - it may be a symptom of the lack of road safety but listing the "bleedin' obvious" (J. Cleese) is neither and argument or a proosal that that will have any effect on road safety.

we have all seen "bad drivers" all over the world so what good is telling us about what we already know - or does it just give you a felling of superiority over Thai people in general? In which case you are throughly mistaken - they see it every day and know how to handle it. It seems to me that if you constantly get indignant whilst driving in Thailand you shouldn't be driving.

Why have you tried to join in the topic with negative views and zero contribution . My writings were an observation of the driving standards and bad behavior on Thai roads and in addition to Maraudingscot's comments to highlight the low driving skills and bad habits on the most dangerous roads in the world .   You stated

                             " does it just give you a felling of superiority over Thai people in general?"   

What is your point , it has no relevance to the topic and where did you get the impression that I am indignant ? I think you should look in the mirror to see the answer .  Maybe a little more water with your libation ?

[Peterphuket]

16 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

It seems that this government have a very limited arsenal when it comes to solving problems - in fact it is an arsenal of one - "BAN IT!"

 

no-one can deny that riding in the back of a pickup is dangerous and foolhardy, but when it comes to a percentage of deaths it is actually very small.....so there will be no dramatic change in the stats for new year.

However, New Year is one of the major holidays in Thailand and a time when families return home to unite.

Most of these people are poor - they live in shared accommodation month after month on a tiny salary a great part of which they send home. They can't afford to go home frequently just once or twice a year and this is it........... this is back to the smallholding to reunite with the family. The pickup is the staple transport and the year's bonus means that they can fill it with relatives and white goods and motorcycles for the "olds".

 

So what kind of government does this to its rank and file? How out of touch do they have to be with both road safety AND the people of Thailand to think that yet another ban is the right way to deal with this problem.

People have been planning this trip for months and how do you think they’ll feel about the Junta now?

 

IMO, if this rule will be enforced, the chance to get more casualties will be higher.

After all more people are forced to take the motorbike.....

[superal]

6 hours ago, AsianAtHeart said:

What percentage of road deaths can be attributed to people riding in the back of a pickup?  Are there any statistics for this, and, if so, is anyone willing to admit of such?

 

Personal observation would lead me to conclude that the relative risk of death in the back of a pickup is low.  The following road safety issues deserve greater attention.

 

1. Lack of courtesy.  Drivers who cannot be bothered to use their turn signals to indicate for other drivers what their intentions may be, have no understanding of the importance of doing so in terms of safety.  The same holds true of drivers who choose to drive in the wrong direction, against one-way traffic; drivers who tootle along at an unreasonably low speed in heavily trafficked roadways; drivers who continue to follow the vehicles ahead of them through the intersection after the light has turned red; drivers who leave no following distance between them and the vehicle ahead; drivers who cannot be bothered to use the correct lane, or who occupy portions of two lanes at once, preventing others from being able to pass them; drivers who turn onto a road, perhaps without even looking, completely unmindful of other traffic already traveling at speed; drivers who continue operating a vehicle without functioning headlights, brakelights, or turn lights; etc.  These simple "courtesies" create a culture prone to road rage and accidents.

 

2. U-turns.  Forcing traffic to change directions via a stop in the otherwise "passing lane" (the fastest lane of traffic, supposedly) while waiting for a break in oncoming traffic in which to turn back the other direction is to pit the fastest vehicles against the slowest--a sure recipe for fatal collisions.  Such fatalities would be incurred regardless of the mode of transport, and, depending upon the visibility and traffic conditions of the location, such fatalities may occur even with skilled drivers.

 

3. Alcohol.  The majority of fatalities on the roadways of Thailand are known to be related to the consumption of alcohol.  Prohibiting the purchase of spirits on special holidays does nothing to prevent people from stocking up and consuming their intoxicants at will.  Driving while under the influence of this drug poison reduces natural fears and sensibilities of danger, increases the lag time in responding to events, and impairs proper judgment in making safe decisions.  Even a very limited exposure to alcohol can obstruct proper brain function and render the consumer unfit for driving.  Precisely for this reason, many countries have strict laws regarding the limits of detectable blood-alcohol levels for drivers.

 

While some of these three points can be related to poor traffic engineering (e.g. U-turns), or to the proper enforcement of safety measures (e.g. working lights), the bulk of the problem lies squarely in the realm of culture.  To legislate changes in culture is virtually to attempt the impossible.  Education works better than legislation where culture is concerned. 

 

My suggestion: Hire foreign driving instructors to train a special group in Thailand's police force in how to properly conduct a safe-driving course, and then require all first-time licensees to complete such a course prior to licensure.  Make sure the course includes adequate instruction in the mechanics of vehicle operation, such as the proper use of gears and of brakes in reducing speed, and gives ample warning of the potential consequences of ignoring traffic safety issues--make this fact-based and graphic!

Whilst I agree with most of your post I differ on the point of  unrestrained passengers in the back of a pick up and  in addition school children riding on the step-up of vehicles and also the roofs . I recall that there were over 20 people killed who were in a pick up travelling back from BKK  last year and in the cab alongside the driver was a bottle of whisky . True stats are not easy to find on road casualties but there are statements saying that over 70% of fatalities are cyclists or motor cyclists .

          Something is wrong when the penalties for smoking on a beach far exceed those imposed on dangerous driving and unroadworthy vehicles .   One solution for the dilemma of the pick up passengers would be for the government to grant low cost or free travel passes on trains and buses when mass travel is expected 

[Airbagwill]

52 minutes ago, superal said:

Why have you tried to join in the topic with negative views and zero contribution . My writings were an observation of the driving standards and bad behavior on Thai roads and in addition to Maraudingscot's comments to highlight the low driving skills and bad habits on the most dangerous roads in the world .   You stated

                             " does it just give you a felling of superiority over Thai people in general?"   

What is your point , it has no relevance to the topic and where did you get the impression that I am indignant ? I think you should look in the mirror to see the answer .  Maybe a little more water with your libation ?

QED - clueless - you have no idea about road safety.

[Russell17au]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

You actually don't have an argument, do you?

If you disagree with something I've said point it out.

the fact is I've posted copiously on road safety and I don't keep track of which thread they are on...I've laid out my case on several occasions and quite frankly I have little time people who's hallmark of not having an argument themselves is to ask others to reiterate or cite what they have already put forward in a reasoned argument.

 

It is pretty apparent that people think that because they can drive a car, they are "experts" (meaningless word) on road safety - they are patently not so but are in reality grossly under-informed about road safety and in particular road safety in Thailand. As such they really have no place posting on the subject.

They claim to have "opinions" but they aren't actually opinions, they are just unreasoned blurtings based on a jumble of their own prejudices.

If you want to join the conversation constructively may I suggest you spend a few weeks or months researching (not searching) the matter or if you are really desperate, trawl through my posts over the last year or so.

So it is my understanding that you are the only one that knows what they are talking about and that everyone else are idiots. Like I said before get your head out of the sand and have a good look at reality. You always carry on about all these useless statistics when in fact there is only one important statistic and that is the one that shows how many people die on Thailand's roads. Trying to link the problems with the Thai road carnage is a cop out and it shows how far your head is buried in the sand.  1 death caused by a road traffic incident is too many but you cannot accept that without going on with some other rubbish. It is pretty apparent that you are not an expert on the matter and that you have not been involved in any type of road rescue or road incident investigation work. Maybe you should try it and then you might learn something about the reality of road carnage. You continually make excuses when it is quite clear what is needed here to reduce the road carnage but you don't seem to be able to understand it. Other countries have been able to reduce their road carnage without all the crap that you are going on with. It is quite simple, get a police force that is not corrupt and supply them with cars and decent bikes to be able to get out on the road and enforce the law, no exceptions. No license, off the road with a hefty fine, Unregistered vehicle, Keys taken so that it cannot be driven and a hefty fine, Speeding, hefty fine with possible loss of license depending on speed, Negligent driving causing death, jail, DUI, lose of license. It does not matter if you are a rich banker or a poor farmer there is only one law for everybody. Road Traffic Act 2522. Enforce the law. Simple as that, with no excuses and no exceptions.

[AsianAtHeart]

I'll make another note on a point of culture that contributes to the mortality on Thai roadways but seems to receive little attention: indecision, ignorance, and fear in dealing with the results of an accident. 

 

Just a few months ago I was the "first responder" on the scene of a single-motorcycle accident.  I was hardly the first, however, to arrive upon the scene, for by the time I got there, a small crowd of at least 15 people surrounded the downed motorcycle and driver, and someone had already found a branch to lay in the road.  The accident had bloodied the face of the driver, who was unconscious.  His breath reeked of alcohol which is likely what impaired his judgment as he prepared to negotiate a sharp corner ahead on the wet road.  For whatever reason, he had slipped ahead of the corner, and his helmet was now nearly choking him, for he had strapped it at the chin well.  None of the locals dared touch him, though one had at least dialed for emergency services.  I went immediately to him to take a pulse and assess his condition.  When I did so, another person joined me, and between the two of us, we struggled with the chin strap until we had released it, alleviating the danger of his choking on it.

 

Alcohol is one thing.  Driving safely another.  But then there is what happens to the injured that might be saved but are neglected out of unwarranted inhibitions that seem endemic to the culture. The man I stopped to help fortunately survived.  Many don't.  Again, my best suggestion is to educate Thai people.  First aid classes and CPR classes could be required of all public servants and teachers, and offered regularly to groups of others.  This would help to dispel their natural fears by helping them feel confident that something they might do themselves would be effective and necessary to save lives.  As before, this is back to culture--which cannot be legislated, but can be educated.