5 Years In Los And Still Don't Understand . .

[wasabi]

Another Thai person my coworker says while there is greng jai, he's never heard of paying a thief for stealing.

Edited January 18, 2007 by wasabi

[Neeranam]

BTW all the thais I work with have been reading this and they are at your obvious naivety and seemingly endless supply of $$$

Likewise at my workplace.

[longway]

The issue (as far as my wife's family is concerned), is the loss of face caused to the girl's family because the marriage is cancelled.

The cause of this scenario (stealing from a foreign guest) seems to have fallen by the wayside....

Simon

Actually, it's quite an interesting example of the huge difference between Western and Asian cultures. Here am I angered by the fact that a theft took place, and a theft from a guest in their home. They are more concerned with not losing face because the marriage is cancelled. How long would a marraige between a 16 year old and 18 year old last anyway?

it all sounds pretty weird to me. the only thing i can think of is that the 18 yr old lad has already been enjoying his marital rights. i beleive that the girls parents can file a police report for statutory rape while the girl is under 18 yrs. maybe this is what all the supposed ´face saving´is about.

16 yrs or not the girl sounds like a cow.

in any case its none of your business. dont pay unless there is a very good reason to do so.

Edited January 18, 2007 by longway

[Insight]

The issue (as far as my wife's family is concerned), is the loss of face caused to the girl's family because the marriage is cancelled.

The cause of this scenario (stealing from a foreign guest) seems to have fallen by the wayside....

Simon

Actually, it's quite an interesting example of the huge difference between Western and Asian cultures. Here am I angered by the fact that a theft took place, and a theft from a guest in their home. They are more concerned with not losing face because the marriage is cancelled. How long would a marraige between a 16 year old and 18 year old last anyway?

it all sounds pretty weird to me. the only thing i can think of is that the 18 yr old lad has already been enjoying his marital rights. i beleive that the girls parents can file a police report for statutory rape while the girl is under 18 yrs. maybe this is what all the supposed ´face saving´is about.

16 yrs or not the girl sounds like a cow.

in any case its none of your business. dont pay unless there is a very good reason to do so.

They could press charges for a fluffy statutory rape charge here, and Simon could press charges for a much easier to prove theft charge.

Simon has the upper hand here, but as mentioned before, the silly concept of face is diverting him to believe otherwise.

[Robski]

Do this look different to you this morning, or is it still the same?

Personally after looking at all the opinion I would say offer the money as a repayable loan or tell them to get stuffed.

If you refuse outright from the start it will be you cast as the unreasonable person and it will rumble on and on.

Really it would be great to tell them all where to go, but if you value your wife and your homelife it's better to play them at their own game.

[longway]

The issue (as far as my wife's family is concerned), is the loss of face caused to the girl's family because the marriage is cancelled.

The cause of this scenario (stealing from a foreign guest) seems to have fallen by the wayside....

Simon

Actually, it's quite an interesting example of the huge difference between Western and Asian cultures. Here am I angered by the fact that a theft took place, and a theft from a guest in their home. They are more concerned with not losing face because the marriage is cancelled. How long would a marraige between a 16 year old and 18 year old last anyway?

it all sounds pretty weird to me. the only thing i can think of is that the 18 yr old lad has already been enjoying his marital rights. i beleive that the girls parents can file a police report for statutory rape while the girl is under 18 yrs. maybe this is what all the supposed ´face saving´is about.

16 yrs or not the girl sounds like a cow.

in any case its none of your business. dont pay unless there is a very good reason to do so.

They could press charges for a fluffy statutory rape charge here, and Simon could press charges for a much easier to prove theft charge.

Simon has the upper hand here, but as mentioned before, the silly concept of face is diverting him to believe otherwise.

simon doesnt have to do a thing, none of this is his business, (it wasnt his money that was stolen)

I was just trying to understand why his wife wanted to give the girl´s family ´compensation´. they have to have some kind of leverage here, the girl being a virgin or something, and the boy having sex b4 the marriage.

who knows am just trying to think inside the box.

[Insight]

^ No worries - You did mention a good point that nobody else raised (about a pre-marital underage jolly).

[Felt 35]

What would you have done? (I told my wife in no uncertain terms that this girl should be paying my wife's family compensation for the shame brought upon them by this theft taking place in her mother's house...)

I agree in the above and I would never have paid for saving anyone’s face.

I believe you are a Westerner and most of us are grown up to learn to be independent and to have confidence in ourselves. That you indirectly end up with bending your beliefs for saving the face to someone which have made shame on themselves do I think is wrong and only make her believe she can keep going with here shameful acts.

[elkangorito]

This is a 'clear cut' case of people manipulating cultural 'rules' to avoid personal responsibility. If a person performs an action & is not prepared to accept the uncontrollable (& unpredictable) reaction from others as a result of this action, then this person is weak & totally without self respect to try to make another person absorb or share the responsibility for the initial action.

Ignore them. Tell them it is not your business & you will have nothing to do with somebody elses problem. If the emotional blackmail ploy is then used against you, ignore that too & continue to go on as usual. Do not be, in any way, antagonistic or affected.These people may soon begin to realise that it takes a lot of energy to be personally irresponsible & otherwise emotive.

And if your missus gets nasty & threatens to leave, then what does this tell you about the 'cost' of 'love'?

Maybe they think that they are choiceless, which is a common belief in a world where people are personally irresponsible by mindlessly 'following the rules'.

Ahhhhhhh....that's what I said!

[jts-khorat]

Maybe a Thai solution to a Thai problem is in order?

The family of the OP promised money to a third party that they did not have; a typical Thai way would be to #loan# this money and receive something in security.

The OP could loan the 20,000 Baht to his wife's family, maybe requesting 10 Rai of land in security, getting the proceeds of all planting until the money is repaid.

You will see, that in this method -- that the Thais understand very well as they do it typically between themselves and even to their own family members -- such an occurrence will never happen again, because very quickly it becomes their problem instead of the OPs...

[simon43]

Well, here we are on a new day...I 'laid' into my wife this morning about the whole issue and attitude of her and her family about the problem. After many tears (from her, not me), a new story arose!

The girl did not steal these cheques, (or so I am told now). It was her 18 year old BF, (the son of my wife's elder sister) who stole them. The marriage issue was apparently unconnected. The girl had been 'promised' to this boy by my wife's family, and this information made public. Then the boy said he didn't want to marry her! So the compensation was not related at all to the theft. (Pretty stupid act if you ask me to announce an arranged marriage in the 1st place before checking if the 2 parties were ok with each other...)

This boy had previously got into a fight down here in Phuket with the son of an 'influential guy'. This made problems for me and my wife and (yet again), money had to change hands to ensure that our new hotel was not targeted for retribution. After that, my wife sent this boy back to his village.

I got hold of the cheques today and sent them by EMS to the American guy. Apparently he has been able to uncancel them!

How true this all is, I have absolutely no idea. I'm just the outsider

Simon

[John_Betong]

Interesting thread and especially the offered solutions - only one mentioning the authorities!!!. My mind boggles!

My two cents worth:

Simon, I think you should plead "Mai Khow Jai" and ask for a meeting of all concerned at a police station.

Agree to pay in front of the police, after the girl has admitted the crime.

The reasoning is the words that still ring in my mind today after a friend's email seven years ago, from Bankok, while he was staying with a Thai family "I am only told what the Thas think I should know"

Edit: just noticed your previous thread, looks like we posted simultaneoulsy:)

Edited January 18, 2007 by John_Betong

[leisurely]

The outsider? I'll tell you what, I wouldn't want your life

[bendix]

And the end result, Simon?

Are you still being asked to pay for the girl's compensation?

Please please please say no.

[bkkmadness]

Well, here we are on a new day...I 'laid' into my wife this morning about the whole issue and attitude of her and her family about the problem. After many tears (from her, not me), a new story arose!

The girl did not steal these cheques, (or so I am told now). It was her 18 year old BF, (the son of my wife's elder sister) who stole them. The marriage issue was apparently unconnected. The girl had been 'promised' to this boy by my wife's family, and this information made public. Then the boy said he didn't want to marry her! So the compensation was not related at all to the theft. (Pretty stupid act if you ask me to announce an arranged marriage in the 1st place before checking if the 2 parties were ok with each other...)

This boy had previously got into a fight down here in Phuket with the son of an 'influential guy'. This made problems for me and my wife and (yet again), money had to change hands to ensure that our new hotel was not targeted for retribution. After that, my wife sent this boy back to his village.

I got hold of the cheques today and sent them by EMS to the American guy. Apparently he has been able to uncancel them!

How true this all is, I have absolutely no idea. I'm just the outsider

Simon

So this has all been bullshit, the girl didn't do anything, the nephew of your wife is the thief, and you have been lied to by your wife in order to get money out of you? Is that correct?

You seem like a nice guy Simon, you don't deserve this. That family and if I am right your wife didn't have a pot to piss in before you come along, you've constantly helped them, you have built a resort on Phuket which I would guess the wife part owns and I think you even employed some of the family to work on the building of it. Yet they are still making up lies to get even more money out of you. And you're still getting the crocodile tears? Unbelievable.

I understand you are in a different situation from me because you have a kid and everything, but I think if I was getting the same hassle, disrespect and lies from my girlfriend and her family then I would be off down the road by now.

[longway]

the story in the OP certainly did not make any sense at all. its still pretty bizarre tho. u obviously dont need to watch thai soap operas with the family u hv.

so are u gonna pay anything or not?

[TRIPxCORE]

Well, here we are on a new day...I 'laid' into my wife this morning about the whole issue and attitude of her and her family about the problem. After many tears (from her, not me), a new story arose!

The girl did not steal these cheques, (or so I am told now). It was her 18 year old BF, (the son of my wife's elder sister) who stole them. The marriage issue was apparently unconnected. The girl had been 'promised' to this boy by my wife's family, and this information made public. Then the boy said he didn't want to marry her! So the compensation was not related at all to the theft. (Pretty stupid act if you ask me to announce an arranged marriage in the 1st place before checking if the 2 parties were ok with each other...)

This boy had previously got into a fight down here in Phuket with the son of an 'influential guy'. This made problems for me and my wife and (yet again), money had to change hands to ensure that our new hotel was not targeted for retribution. After that, my wife sent this boy back to his village.

I got hold of the cheques today and sent them by EMS to the American guy. Apparently he has been able to uncancel them!

How true this all is, I have absolutely no idea. I'm just the outsider

Simon

WOW! It's funny how when you stood your ground a new story suddenly emerged. The family must have been saying, "Darn, he didn't buy that one, we have to tell him something else." Now you get this other story which you don't even know if its true or not either. I would have trouble believing anything I was told by the family and my wife had I been deceived in such a fashion.

No matter what they tell you, the jist of what I am getting here is that you are depended on to solve all family problems related to money. This responsibility being bestowed on you of course because you're the farang. No one asked if you wanted this responsibility or if you would accept it. They just gave it to you because of where you come from. I make a point of it to make my wife understand I will not stand for that kind of behavior from her or her family. I would be outraged were I you.

[Insight]

Don't think Simon shoudl be that outraged - whether it's the girl who stole the cash or the guy, it's just a minor detail as far as I understand.

The bottom line is there's an arrangement between these two teens both families have agreed on, and now the boy (who sounds like a right nomark to be honest) wants out, which is possible under the conditions stated - coming up with the cash.

This financial obligation is even more applicable if there’s been some premarital activity involved between the two - don't think you need to be Sherlock on that one.

This is pretty standard law-of-the land stuff, especially out there in the sticks, as I'm sure other people can testify.

Where alarm bells were going of previously was the accusation that the girl had stole the cheques followed then the demand for cash from her family, therefore putting the morality of the whole situation in doubt. I don't think this applies any longer.

Therefore sticking your hand in your pocket on this occasion to get the family out of this arrangement no longer seems like such a bad thing (providing you've got the means). However, personally, I'd probably want to make it the last favour I do for this son-in-law.

[Bananaman]

Don't think Simon shoudl be that outraged - whether it's the girl who stole the cash or the guy, it's just a minor detail as far as I understand.

The bottom line is there's an arrangement between these two teens both families have agreed on, and now the boy (who sounds like a right nomark to be honest) wants out, which is possible under the conditions stated - coming up with the cash.

This financial obligation is even more applicable if there’s been some premarital activity involved between the two - don't think you need to be Sherlock on that one.

This is pretty standard law-of-the land stuff, especially out there in the sticks, as I'm sure other people can testify.

Where alarm bells were going of previously was the accusation that the girl had stole the cheques followed then the demand for cash from her family, therefore putting the morality of the whole situation in doubt. I don't think this applies any longer.

Therefore sticking your hand in your pocket on this occasion to get the family out of this arrangement no longer seems like such a bad thing (providing you've got the means). However, personally, I'd probably want to make it the last favour I do for this son-in-law.

Whatever the truth of the circumstances, the fact still remains that the family attempted to obtain this money fraudulently from Simon with the old "gullible, deep-pocketed farang" prejudice as their obvious impetus for doing so. The fact that his wife went along with it is even worse. I still wouldn't a single cent to these lying scam artists.

[bendix]

Hey, why don't we all have a whip-round?

[bkkmadness]

Don't think Simon shoudl be that outraged - whether it's the girl who stole the cash or the guy, it's just a minor detail as far as I understand.

I think he means he should be outraged because his family (including his wife) have been lying to him to get 30 K out of him. They needed the money to pay this new debt, so they made up a story to tell the poor farang and when that didn't work they gave him another one, and he's not even sure if this one is true. And the worse thing is the stories he can't trust are coming from his wife and mother of his child! Wouldn't you be a little pissed off Insight?

Therefore sticking your hand in your pocket on this occasion to get the family out of this arrangement no longer seems like such a bad thing

It may be right the money needs to be paid but since they asked for the money in such an underhanded way I would refuse to give anything. Let them pay it themselves, and if they can't and have to lose face, so be it.

[Mid]

yip ha tung ........

[TRIPxCORE]

Don't think Simon shoudl be that outraged - whether it's the girl who stole the cash or the guy, it's just a minor detail as far as I understand.

The bottom line is there's an arrangement between these two teens both families have agreed on, and now the boy (who sounds like a right nomark to be honest) wants out, which is possible under the conditions stated - coming up with the cash.

This financial obligation is even more applicable if there’s been some premarital activity involved between the two - don't think you need to be Sherlock on that one.

This is pretty standard law-of-the land stuff, especially out there in the sticks, as I'm sure other people can testify.

Where alarm bells were going of previously was the accusation that the girl had stole the cheques followed then the demand for cash from her family, therefore putting the morality of the whole situation in doubt. I don't think this applies any longer.

Therefore sticking your hand in your pocket on this occasion to get the family out of this arrangement no longer seems like such a bad thing (providing you've got the means). However, personally, I'd probably want to make it the last favour I do for this son-in-law.

I agree the situation has changed a bit and that agreeing to financial compensation is fine between the two parties as long as this story is true. What this new information does not do is make Simon responsible for the money. He wasn't responsible for it before and I don't think he should be held responsible for it now either. The whole situation has nothing to do with him. Then the fact remains that the family, and his wife, were in cahoots to scam money out of him and that is abhorrent in my eyes. If you can't trust your own family then who can you trust?

The family would be in the same situation with the two young people no matter if Simon was a member of the family or not. Let's pretend for a moment that he wasn't a member of this family. What does the family do in that circumstance? Surely a situation such as this has come up before in Thailand?

[bkkmadness]

The whole irony of the situation is this thread started about Simon43 saying how after 5 years he still don't understand some 'Thai ways', in this case his family rewarding someone for criminal behavior. And now he's the one paying out money for criminal behavior, just a different set of criminals!

[Insight]

Depends if it was a lie or a misunderstanding, Madness. If it was a lie, why would she damage the credibility of somebody she’s trying persuade her husband to give cash to?

(then again, TIT et al)

Not saying I personally agree with any of this either, but this stuff does go on, regardless of the presence of khun farang.

Edited January 18, 2007 by Insight

[bkkmadness]

Depends if it was a lie or a misunderstanding, Madness. If it was a lie, why would she damage the credibility of somebody she’s trying persuade her husband to give cash to?

Better than saying it was another cock up by the useless nephew again, the one who has already caused problems for Simon and his business, and has already cost him some money. I bet Simon has already told the family something along the lines then of not helping that boy out with another baht. Much better for the young son to be the victim this time.

I don't see how he could be misunderstanding the story from his wife, they've been together for years, hes got a kid with her, she's his business partner, and she's also head of the family so knew the full story from the start and has been making the decisions. What communication problems? He misheard? Pull the other one, its got bells on...

[lannarebirth]

Simon,

Why is your wife involved at all? and why are these people coming to your home? If they've a valid claim, shouldn't they be taking it up with the boy and his mother?

Edited January 18, 2007 by lannarebirth

[Insight]

Depends if it was a lie or a misunderstanding, Madness. If it was a lie, why would she damage the credibility of somebody she’s trying persuade her husband to give cash to?

Better than saying it was another cock up by the useless nephew again, the one who has already caused problems for Simon and his business, and has already cost him some money. I bet Simon has already told the family something along the lines then of not helping that boy out with another baht. Much better for the young son to be the victim this time.

I don't see how he could be misunderstanding the story from his wife, they've been together for years, hes got a kid with her, she's his business partner, and she's also head of the family so knew the full story from the start and has been making the decisions. What communication problems? He misheard? Pull the other one, its got bells on...

Even blaming the nephew sounds a lot easier than saying "we need to pay these thieving cnuts off for face 'n stuff"

[bkkmadness]

The points moot anyway, a credible story is not even needed. I bet Simon's gonna end up hand in pocket to avoid more tears and hassles.

[simon43]

Ah, the problems of Thai wives....

I would be much happier if I packed my wife off back to Issan for a few weeks, to try to encourage her to be a little more honest. Right now, my anger is primarily because I have been lied to and not been party to this problem when it first reared it's head.

Our marriage is strong, but she really does 'try' my patience at times... (don't they all?)

Simon