Overstaying Brit arrested after death of Pattaya bar girl is convicted rapist on the run from UK police

[bkkcanuck8]

9 minutes ago, toughlove said:

I believe he is completely innocent.
We were just debating whether a launching is manslaughter or murder charge.

I think he will be deported for overstay and that's the end of it.

Oh great, another OJ jurist.

[toughlove]

Oh great, another OJ jurist.

Now now you just said above not to get ahead of ourselves and here you are suggesting it would be a travesty of justice.. Tsk Tsk.

[bkkcanuck8]

9 minutes ago, toughlove said:

Now now you just said above not to get ahead of ourselves and here you are suggesting it would be a travesty of justice.. Tsk Tsk.

Yes.  IMHO, if he were to be just deported it would.  The sex play story likely came from him -- after he was arrested.  If he had hired a lawyer and negotiated his surrender -- he likely would not have made statements that will be used against him.  Sex play on a balcony where one person goes over the rail - is negligent homicide at the very least.  It is usual for police to charge someone with the minimum charge that the evidence supports - with options to raise it if further evidence supports doing that when the investigation is complete.   I am afraid in this case that the police actually do the basics of law better than some here.

[Chivas]

37 minutes ago, toughlove said:

I believe he is completely innocent.
We were just debating whether a launching is manslaughter or murder charge.

I think he will be deported for overstay and that's the end of it.

lol comedy platinum deported and thats the end of it !

[SheungWan]

42 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

 

The problem is that you are getting ahead of the investigation.  We have no evidence of intent, or malice.  We have no evidence that he picked up the girl and launched her over the balcony.  We have a dead girl on the street below; we have a person of interest who fled the scene; and we have his statement (she unfortunately could not make a statement since she is dead).  We only have supposition based on what we know and what we believe could have happened -- partially from his criminal history.  If we have two reasonable theories -- #1 that she fell over the balcony wall because of negligent behaviour with regards to sex play on the balcony; #2 that she was thrown over in a fit of rage -- the presumption under the law is that the courts should always side on the lesser of the two reasonable theories/explanations.  That is why the Thai police have preliminarily charged him under the Negligent Homicide statute while they conduct the rest of their investigation.   Supposition is not evidence - at least not for an extremely long time (i.e. not since medieval times).  What would tip it to #2 -- is if they could find witnesses that would testify to a heated argument or altercation in the time leading up to her death.

Yes. No reason to think that this previously convicted violent psychopath on the run would attack a woman again.

[bkkcanuck8]

3 minutes ago, Jools said:

Already the BIB are attempting to extort money from the Brit's family in return for food and water. Such a compassionate bunch, devoted to justice.

No, the family is misunderstanding the situation.  Prisoners in Thailand do not get the same luxuries as western prisons.  They can expect a meal consisting of low-grade (what we might consider rotten) rice or porridge and soups, and water (not bottled - just your average water than may not be the best for drinking).  

 

If you want more your family usually will be responsible for sending or supplying food which is more palatable, water and money that could be used in a sort of canteen.  

 

Without a proper support network locally, he should get use to it since that is what the Thai prison system is like.  Just because he is a westerner does not mean he gets treated any better.

 

[Rolanddrums]

Some basic dimensions. Firstly balcony at this condo if same as mine is approx 3 ft 6 inches high . The girl looks like approx 5 ft high . Naked so no high shoes to increase her height  . As far as I'm aware just glass  fronts ( No metal bars to step on). The balcony would be chest height on her . Accidentally fell off during sex ? Would be interesting to hear in exact detail from him ( Including being made to act it out) how extravagant sex put her center of gravity on the wrong side of a 3ft 6 inch handrail. Even if it was extravagant sex was it consensual on her part ? I doubt that to.

 

[bkkcanuck8]

6 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Yes. No reason to think that this previously convicted violent psychopath on the run would attack a woman again.

What evidence do you have that he is a psychopath - are there MRIs of his brain that I am not privy to or seen?  He has a prior conviction - and if supposition were considered evidence -- it would be enough -- but it is not typically.

 

If he were a psychopath he would likely have been more intelligent...  

Edited January 10, 2018 by bkkcanuck8

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

What evidence do you have that he is a psychopath - are there MRIs of his brain that I am not privy to or seen?  He has a prior conviction - and if supposition were considered evidence -- it would be enough -- but it is not typically.

Hello! Its the forum defence team deflection squad back again. Yes, when he bashed the girl with a bin lid and then raped her it was because he was worried about global warming.

Edited January 10, 2018 by SheungWan

[Jools]

4 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

No, the family is misunderstanding the situation.  Prisoners in Thailand do not get the same luxuries as western prisons.  They can expect a meal consisting of low-grade (what we might consider rotten) rice or porridge and soups, and water (not bottled - just your average water than may not be the best for drinking).  

 

If you want more your family usually will be responsible for sending or supplying food which is more palatable, water and money that could be used in a sort of canteen.  

 

Without a proper support network locally, he should get use to it since that is what the Thai prison system is like.  Just because he is a westerner does not mean he gets treated any better.

 

Amazing that we have expats trying to justify inhumane prison conditions in Thailand. Western countries used to loudly protest this kind of treatment of prisoners by Communist governments. Since Thailand is merely a military government, they are all very quiet on human rights.

[bkkcanuck8]

Just now, SheungWan said:

Hello! Its the forum defence team deflection squad back again.

Not defence.  As I said before I believe him guilty of something more serious, but at this time the evidence does not support my belief and I am logical enough to realize what I want and what I believe are not sufficient in a court of law.  

 

I would not be surprised that even with the lesser charge he could find himself in a Thai prison for up to 10 years depending on the judge (which likely will take into account prior bad acts in sentencing; and potentially disallowing confession in sentencing given his flippant behaviour on arrest).  I don't know about others here but I think I might prefer 20 years in a UK prison than 10 years in a Thai prison.  If he gets out of the Thai prison alive (which there are good odds he won't), he likely will have serious effects on his health the rest of his life.  In a UK prison you can make a reasonable life for yourself - library, maybe computer time - maybe courses etc. - you just have to get use to the lack of freedom).  

 

[bannork]

9 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

What evidence do you have that he is a psychopath - are there MRIs of his brain that I am not privy to or seen?  He has a prior conviction - and if supposition were considered evidence -- it would be enough -- but it is not typically.

 

If he were a psychopath he would likely have been more intelligent...  

A lot of psychopaths are dumb as hell. Because they're devoid of empathy for others doesn't make them all scheming, manipulating Ted Bundys.

[bkkcanuck8]

5 minutes ago, Jools said:

Amazing that we have expats trying to justify inhumane prison conditions in Thailand. Western countries used to loudly protest this kind of treatment of prisoners by Communist governments. Since Thailand is merely a military government, they are all very quiet on human rights.

The prison system is as it was before the current government.   When you travel to another country -- and you commit a crime -- you cannot expect better conditions than anyone locally.   Don't do the crime -- if you cannot stand the time (in the local prison) -- and stay at home in your own country.  I am not justifying the inhuman prison conditions, I am just stating that this is the reality.  The prisons are community based, and not everything is supplied by the government -- the expectation is that family support will be part of the package.  

[bkkcanuck8]

4 minutes ago, bannork said:

A lot of psychopaths are dumb as hell. Because they're devoid of empathy for others doesn't make them all scheming, manipulating Ted Bundys.

Not all narcissists are psychopaths.  Diagnosing everyone with self-control or violent behaviour as a psychopath -- would not be wise.

Edited January 10, 2018 by bkkcanuck8

[Slip]

20 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

No, the family is misunderstanding the situation.  Prisoners in Thailand do not get the same luxuries as western prisons.  They can expect a meal consisting of low-grade (what we might consider rotten) rice or porridge and soups, and water (not bottled - just your average water than may not be the best for drinking).  

 

If you want more your family usually will be responsible for sending or supplying food which is more palatable, water and money that could be used in a sort of canteen.  

 

Without a proper support network locally, he should get use to it since that is what the Thai prison system is like.  Just because he is a westerner does not mean he gets treated any better.

 

Would the money not get wet? 

[wazzupnow]

lock him up and trow away the key,sick f##k

[jenny2017]

1 hour ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

 

The problem is that you are getting ahead of the investigation.  We have no evidence of intent, or malice.  We have no evidence that he picked up the girl and launched her over the balcony.  We have a dead girl on the street below; we have a person of interest who fled the scene; and we have his statement (she unfortunately could not make a statement since she is dead).  We only have supposition based on what we know and what we believe could have happened -- partially from his criminal history.  If we have two reasonable theories -- #1 that she fell over the balcony wall because of negligent behaviour with regards to sex play on the balcony; #2 that she was thrown over in a fit of rage -- the presumption under the law is that the courts should always side on the lesser of the two reasonable theories/explanations.  That is why the Thai police have preliminarily charged him under the Negligent Homicide statute while they conduct the rest of their investigation.   Supposition is not evidence - at least not for an extremely long time (i.e. not since medieval times).  What would tip it to #2 -- is if they could find witnesses that would testify to a heated argument or altercation in the time leading up to her death.

Well said. 

[iantvc15]

God bless this young lady. The family must be distraught not only at loosing her but the circumstances also.

 

A terrible waste of a young life.

 

Leave the Thai authorities to deal with the 'gentleman' who has been arrested. I hope some sort of support has been extended to her family.

[JHolmesJr]

My advice to anyone doing it on the balcony is...find a nice comfy chair and carry out all proceedings with both parties seated.

Preferably with the lady on top.

[Kadilo]

6 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

My advice to anyone doing it on the balcony is...find a nice comfy chair and carry out all proceedings with both parties seated.

Preferably with the lady on top.

Kinda defeats the object of doing it on the balcony in the first place. Why not take the telly out there with you as well. 

[Kadilo]

7 hours ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

 

The problem is that you are getting ahead of the investigation.  We have no evidence of intent, or malice.  We have no evidence that he picked up the girl and launched her over the balcony.  We have a dead girl on the street below; we have a person of interest who fled the scene; and we have his statement (she unfortunately could not make a statement since she is dead).  We only have supposition based on what we know and what we believe could have happened -- partially from his criminal history.  If we have two reasonable theories -- #1 that she fell over the balcony wall because of negligent behaviour with regards to sex play on the balcony; #2 that she was thrown over in a fit of rage -- the presumption under the law is that the courts should always side on the lesser of the two reasonable theories/explanations.  That is why the Thai police have preliminarily charged him under the Negligent Homicide statute while they conduct the rest of their investigation.   Supposition is not evidence - at least not for an extremely long time (i.e. not since medieval times).  What would tip it to #2 -- is if they could find witnesses that would testify to a heated argument or altercation in the time leading up to her death.

Excellent post. 

[KhunMhee]

10 hours ago, dfdgfdfdgs said:

Are we reading different articles?

 

There's nothing in the article at the start of this topic that says anything like that.  This is the only sentence that makes reference to her condition:

 

"Medics were unable to save her after a security man heard her fall to the ground in the early hours of Saturday."

 

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/british-man-arrested-bar-girl-death-pattaya/

 

Learn to read before you turn pro keyboard warrior. 1/2 way down it states she was alive when rescuers arrived.

[catman20]

On 1/9/2018 at 7:44 AM, alex8912 said:

Thank you. One poster is more concerned that he rented the bike as well! It's like the first few posters are more concerned that this piece of scum Brit might further degrade the British reputation in Pattaya. I'm sure others will try to defend this loser as well. Is his name British enough for some posters? 

RIP to the girl. No one deserves this. 

He is just another quality tourist that never should have made it into Thailand.  

or out of his mothers whom.

Edited January 10, 2018 by catman20

[JSixpack]

13 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

My advice to anyone doing it on the balcony is...find a nice comfy chair and carry out all proceedings with both parties seated.

Preferably with the lady on top.

 

About the only silver lining in this tragedy is that our ace TVF Sexologists have converged on the threads to help our clueless members understand all about sex on balconies.

[Kerryd]

I swear it seems that a lot of people on this forum have never actually had sex before as they seem clueless as to how things are (or can be) done.

Of course, most of the people here are married to HiSo wives who "never work bar before" so maybe they aren't as experienced as other people.

 

The vast majority of Thai bar girls will NOT (willingly) perform a sex act in public. Even performers in gogo bars are not likely to even consider doing anything outside of the bar where they could be seen (and thus photographed or arrested etc with the family back home finding out soon afterwards).
 

The simplest answer is (possibly) the most likely. The guy was having sex with the girl and decided to pick her up and carry her out onto the balcony, maybe trying to sit her butt on the balcony railing. She would have (most likely) objected to that, strongly, as she wouldn't have wanted to be seen by anyone else (regardless of how late or how dark it was at the time).
She was probably struggling to "disengage" while he was trying to hold on and "finish the job" and during that struggle she went over the balcony. The guy panics, grabs her phone and takes off. Maybe he was thinking they wouldn't be able to identify her or  link her to him. Maybe he didn't think they could track her phone. A lot of people can't think straight (or logically) when they are in panic mode.

I remember 20 years ago when I had a girl in a hotel room and I picked her up (while fully "engaged") and tried to set her rear on the window sill which seemed to be the perfect height. She started going spastic and was telling at me to stop as she was scared someone might see her butt (the window was closed and there was no danger of her falling out but she was scared someone would see and figure out who it was).

Doesn't matter what the girl's occupation was. Doesn't matter whether or not someone thinks it's Thai Immigration's fault for letting the guy into the country (or the UK Immigration's fault for letting him out of that country). His past (and present) may suggest that he could be the kind of person that would need a little extra "stimulation" in order to "finish the job" and maybe he needed the thrill of having sex where others could (possibly) see them. 
I don't think a prosecutor would have too hard of time pushing for a manslaughter conviction. Depending on circumstances, a Manslaughter charge could carry a prison sentence of anywhere from 3-15 years (possibly 3-20 years).
"Section 290. Manslaughter

Whoever, causes death to the other person by inflicting injury upon the body of such person without intent to cause death, shall be punished with imprisonment of three to fifteen years."

 

Even a charge of Negligence carries a sentence of "not more than 10 years". 

("Section 291. Negligence

Whoever, doing the act by negligence and that act causing the other person to death, shall be imprisoned not more of ten years or fined not more of twenty thousand Baht.")

I'm not sure how Thai law handles previous convictions (especially for foreigners) or outstanding warrants (as in, I'm not sure if that stuff is admissible or can be used by the prosecution). Probably wouldn't affect too much. As we know, if he confesses he'll get half of whatever the maximum sentence would normally be and if he doesn't confess (and they find him guilty) then he'd most likely get the maximum allowable sentence.

At least the UK police will know where to find him when his sentence is up (or he gets a prisoner transfer request approved) and he's deported back to the UK. 

[bkkcanuck8]

3 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

The guy panics, grabs her phone and takes off. Maybe he was thinking they wouldn't be able to identify her or  link her to him. Maybe he didn't think they could track her phone. A lot of people can't think straight (or logically) when they are in panic mode.

Not sure how Thai law handles previous convictions (especially for foreigners) or outstanding warrants (as in, I'm not sure if that stuff is admissible or can be used by the prosecution). Probably wouldn't affect too much. As we know, if he confesses he'll get half of whatever the maximum sentence would normally be and if he doesn't confess (and they find him guilty) then he'd most likely get the maximum allowable sentence.

At least the UK police will know where to find him when his sentence is up (or he gets a prisoner transfer request approved) and he's deported back to the UK. 

I actually think the reasonable theory (IMHO) would be that the person took her phone because it either had pictures of him and/or contact information along with text messages (which would demonstrate thinking straight).   As such, if the charge is negligence would think that a charge of tampering with a crime scene could also be added... but that is a guess.  The judge does not have to accept a confession if he feels it is not needed and "is only made to reduce sentence" (I have seen previous cases where the judge rejected it because of this reason) -- as such running, tampering with the crime scene to remove incriminating evidence and being captured/not turning himself in - as well as his flippant behaviour afterwords... would be sufficient grounds to reject any confession meant only to reduce the sentence.  

 

The laws as per the admissibility of evidence in western courts is generally determined by the judge where the rule at hand is if it is the evidence is more prejudicial than probative -- it is excluded since it might prejudice the jury and therefore affect the defendants right to a fair trial.  Since the judge is the one to both determine admissibility and render a verdict -- this rule would likely be mute -- the judge will see it in both cases.

 

He will have to serve at least 33% of his sentence before he is eligible to apply for a transfer to the UK.  Either country can reject the transfer.  I don't see a huge number of people transferred, and given the bureaucratic nature of the process - I would not be surprised if the time to process the request is on the order of 18 months or more.  So in the event the maximum sentence is applied he would likely still have to serve at least half here.  I believe the current treaty in effect at this point is between the EU and Thailand, as such by the time he requests it Brexit might have caused the treaty to be no longer in effect for him (not sure if it reverts to a prior treaty or just without a treaty).

[Rimmer]

A troll post has been removed

[ttrd]

10 hours ago, Kadilo said:

Kinda defeats the object of doing it on the balcony in the first place. Why not take the telly out there with you as well. 

RE - Why not take the telly out there with you as well. 

 

To be able for both to look tv at the same time during sexual activities will strongly limit the Choice of positions...

[balo]

He most likely grabbed her phone to get rid of any links between him and the girl, erasing pictures, phone numbers etc.

[speedtripler]

2 minutes ago, balo said:

He most likely grabbed her phone to get rid of any links between him and the girl, erasing pictures, phone numbers etc.

Why still have it in his pocket the next day?