Bangkok Air Pollution

[JoshBe]

4 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

Ionizers are a bad idea because they create ozone, which is a harmful pollutant in itself, and do almost nothing to reduce the particulate matter in a room.

 

Apparently the fancy ionizers used by Sharp create no ozone. Not sure if this if I'm falling for the marketing though

[greg71]

Best thing i have purchased in a long time is the IQ Air filter , not cheap by any stretch of the imagination . Money well spent i say . 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 hours ago, edwardandtubs said:

Ionizers are a bad idea because they create ozone, which is a harmful pollutant in itself, and do almost nothing to reduce the particulate matter in a room.

 

That's what I had always understood as well, which is why I've stayed away from ionizer units and focused on True HEPA filtration units, meaning those that can filter 99.97% of particulates.

 

Although, as I've been shopping for and looking at the details of various Sharp and Toshiba units, for example, the product info seems to talk about having the ability to turn on or off the ionizing feature, as desired. So if that's correct and the unit otherwise is good, it would seem you'd be able to simply not use the ionizing feature.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

11 hours ago, JoshBe said:

Any thoughts on this one? https://www.powerbuy.co.th/en/sharp-เครื่องฟอกอากาศ-สำหรับห้องขนาด-30-ตรม-รุ่น-fpf40tat-เครื่องฟอกอากาศ-217431

It's 2000 THB more but it seems to better purifier because of the ionizer.

 

Where are you getting the notion that the Sharp ionizer units don't create any ozone.

 

In reading the translated version of the product description, I didn't see any mention at all of ozone. And, likewise, I was shopping for a similar model of Sharp's air purifier, and also saw no mention of ozone one way or the other.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

When looking at air purifiers, another important issue to consider is how and where are you going to obtain the replacement pre-filters and/or HEPA filters that the units require. And how much do those replacements cost.

 

In my shopping around the past few weeks at the various major retailers, they all seem to stock various air purifier models, but few of them seem to stock any or many of the replacement filters for those models. And when I've asked, the retailers simply say, you have to contact the manufacturers for that.

 

Well, I tried that today with both Toshiba TH and Sharp TH.

--Called the Toshiba service call center number during their business hours two separate times, got put on eternal hold both times, and no one ever picked up after 10 minutes on hold.

 

--Called the Sharp service call center during business hours, finally got thru to the staff there. And when I told them what I was calling about, got transferred to another staff person, who informed me Sharp TH doesn't directly sell filters for their own units.  The staff guy finally gave me the name and phone number of a third party company that supposedly sells their filters, and when I called it, the number seemed out of service.

 

In all respects, pretty abysmal customer service as is common here. But the important thing to remember is, no matter how inexpensive or expensive your air purifier unit is, it's only going to function as effectively as the quality of the filters you put in it and make sure they're replaced as needed.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

No respite even late into the night:

 

[lopburi3]

But after the witching hour of midnight the Bangkok readings suddenly dropped.

[ExpatOilWorker]

11 hours ago, JimShorts said:

You do not want ionizer. This will cause different health issues. 

 

Blueair are the best, but very expensive. 

 

I have a few Blueair purifiers along with a few Bwells. The Bwells perform very good. 

 

I recommend getting a PM monitor, I find mine very helpful, especially when going out of the house. I have one I got in the USA, looks exactly like this one on Lazada but with a different logo. It works great. http://bit.ly/2IlZbgy

Since you have a PM monitor, have you ever tried to compare street level measurement to rooftop, 30th floor or above, measurements on the same day?

It does seem like the haze is somewhat low hanging.

Are you in Bangkok by the way?

 

[lopburi3]

11 hours ago, JimShorts said:

You do not want ionizer. This will cause different health issues. 

 

Blueair are the best, but very expensive. 

 

I have a few Blueair purifiers along with a few Bwells. The Bwells perform very good. 

 

I recommend getting a PM monitor, I find mine very helpful, especially when going out of the house. I have one I got in the USA, looks exactly like this one on Lazada but with a different logo. It works great. http://bit.ly/2IlZbgy

As with most things from outside Thailand on Lazada it is a lot cheaper buying direct Aliexpress.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/WP6910-PM1-0-PM2-5-PM10-Meter-HCHO-Meter-Air-Detector-with-Rechargeable-Lithium-Battery/32790328735.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10152_10151_10065_10344_10068_10342_10343_10340_10341_10084_10083_10618_10307_5711215_10313_10059_10534_100031_10103_10627_10626_10624_10623_10622_5711315_10621_10620_5722415,searchweb201603_25,ppcSwitch_5&algo_expid=8e2fca5c-53e9-4397-9005-c465d0925490-8&algo_pvid=8e2fca5c-53e9-4397-9005-c465d0925490&priceBeautifyAB=0

Or from Ebay

https://www.ebay.com/p/Digital-Formaldehyde-Detector-HCHO-TVOC-Aqi-Meter-Home-Air-Gas-Quality-Tester/3008060591?iid=222782349332&_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D47300%26meid%3Db82dd245d18e47bcbb41a0c4f510da99%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D302468655848%26itm%3D222782349332&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, lopburi3 said:

As with most things from outside Thailand on Lazada it is a lot cheaper buying direct Aliexpress.

 

 

I just got thru going thru lots of the PM2.5 sensors on Aliexpress, tried to look for the best ones based on numbers of purchases, reviewer comments and the tech info listed for the various products. Did a recap in a separate thread here on air purifiers and related topics:

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Not good...but better thus far today, not into the red yet, unlike yesterday where it was pretty much red all day:

 

[ChidlomDweller]

14 hours ago, JoshBe said:

 

Apparently the fancy ionizers used by Sharp create no ozone. Not sure if this if I'm falling for the marketing though

Since you said you want a cheap one, google DIY air purifier.  By far the cheapest solution in the short and long term, and as effective.  

 

Check out the Smartair website as well.  It has a lot of interesting data and measurements.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 minutes ago, ChidlomDweller said:

Since you said you want a cheap one, google DIY air purifier.  By far the cheapest solution in the short and long term, and as effective.  

 

Check out the Smartair website as well.  It has a lot of interesting data and measurements.

 

Except seemingly no flat-front box fans -- the kind suitable for strapping a HEPA filter onto the front -- to be found in Thailand...  Everything seems to be the pedestal/stand kind or the wall attached kind with circular and curved van enclosures.

 

[SoilSpoil]

 

 

 

 

Lopburi and Saraburi are the (usual) main culprits of Bangkok's excessive smog. Don't you just love the lack of law enforcement. Burn those fields farmers!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, SoilSpoil said:

 

 

 

 

Lopburi and Saraburi are the (usual) main culprits of Bangkok's excessive smog. Don't you just love the lack of law enforcement. Burn those fields farmers!

 

What are those maps you're posting, and where/who are they coming from?

 

[SoilSpoil]

https://firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/

 

http://berkeleyearth.org/air-quality-real-time-map/

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

15 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

When looking at air purifiers, another important issue to consider is how and where are you going to obtain the replacement pre-filters and/or HEPA filters that the units require. And how much do those replacements cost.

 

In my shopping around the past few weeks at the various major retailers, they all seem to stock various air purifier models, but few of them seem to stock any or many of the replacement filters for those models. And when I've asked, the retailers simply say, you have to contact the manufacturers for that.

 

Well, I tried that today with both Toshiba TH and Sharp TH.

--Called the Toshiba service call center number during their business hours two separate times, got put on eternal hold both times, and no one ever picked up after 10 minutes on hold.

 

--Called the Sharp service call center during business hours, finally got thru to the staff there. And when I told them what I was calling about, got transferred to another staff person, who informed me Sharp TH doesn't directly sell filters for their own units.  The staff guy finally gave me the name and phone number of a third party company that supposedly sells their filters, and when I called it, the number seemed out of service.

 

 

Bit of an update on both Toshiba and Sharp today, and none of it particularly good.

 

Re Toshiba, I finally got a call back from Toshiba customer service and a lady there who spoke English and seemed to know what she was talking about. I was asking her about filters for two different Toshiba models, CAF-G30 and G2. And after checking on my questions and then calling me back, she claimed that only Toshiba service headquarters in BKK sells replacement HEPA filters for those two machines, which she said use the same HEPA filter. And she offered to EMS them to me. But the kicker, she added that Toshiba right now is OUT of STOCK of that HEPA filter that runs 1,150b each, and may not have stock again until next month (so she said). Not exactly a reassuring outlook for future filter replacements.

 

Then re Sharp, I tried again the 3rd party business that Sharp service center had given me yesterday, and today the phone number was working. And I ended up talking to a lady there who said they had no EN speaking staff, only Thai. So between my Thai and her little EN, I was able to suss out that yes, this company, JBS located on Petchburi Rd near RCA, does sell replacement filters for Sharp air purifier units. I was asking about the Sharp FP-F30TA, and she said that would run 990b and they had them in stock. But no website for ordering, and no EN speaking staff. And I'm still trying to check with them on whether the filters they're selling are legit Sharp OEM filters or who knows made by who 3rd party filters.

 

Oddly, in rooting around online, I found lots of online sources for Sharp air purifier filters in Malaysia, including from Lazada Malaysia and even Sharp Malaysia, but not from Lazada Thailand, at least not for the FP-F30TA model.

 

Although, there is a Thai website that seems to sell replacement filters for various makes and models of air purifiers, but I haven't talked to them yet, and it isn't especially clear from their website whether they're selling OEM filters or 3rd party made filters: www.airpurifierthai.com

 

Edited March 13, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JoshBe]

16 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Where are you getting the notion that the Sharp ionizer units don't create any ozone.

 

In reading the translated version of the product description, I didn't see any mention at all of ozone. And, likewise, I was shopping for a similar model of Sharp's air purifier, and also saw no mention of ozone one way or the other.

 

 

I found here some details how the Sharp ionizer works: https://www.theairpurifiers.com/sharp_plasmacluster_ion.html

Apparently it still creates ozone but much less than common ioniziers... whatever that means in term of health effects I don't know :)

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 minutes ago, JoshBe said:

 

I found here some details how the Sharp ionizer works: https://www.theairpurifiers.com/sharp_plasmacluster_ion.html

Apparently it still creates ozone but much less than common ioniziers... whatever that means in term of health effects I don't know :)

 

I knew I shouldn't have slept thru chemistry class in school... Yikes!!! 

 

But seriously... that kind of stuff is just one indicator of how really difficult it is to shop for these kinds of products in any informed/intelligent way. And then you start adding in the difference between regular HEPA and "True" HEPA filters. And then finding replacement filters. And then trying to interpret the Chinese websites and product info for various of this stuff. And it's enough for a giant sized headache!!!

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 hours ago, SoilSpoil said:

http://berkeleyearth.org/air-quality-real-time-map/

 

The BerkeleyEarth site seems to have a very useful, clear mapping picture of PM2.5 levels.... Great to to see it (but not to breath it!).

 

 

 

[JoshBe]

13 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I knew I shouldn't have slept thru chemistry class in school... Yikes!!! 

 

But seriously... that kind of stuff is just one indicator of how really difficult it is to shop for these kinds of products in any informed/intelligent way. And then you start adding in the difference between regular HEPA and "True" HEPA filters. And then finding replacement filters. And then trying to interpret the Chinese websites and product info for various of this stuff. And it's enough for a giant sized headache!!!

 

 

Amen! Yesterday I ordered the Sharp purifier out of frustration. In hindsight, I should've probably ordered Hatari one because of the cheaper and easier to obtain filters (thank you for doing the research by the way!)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, that same site, I see, have some very useful and interesting air pollution data for various major cities, including Bangkok... at the following address.

 

http://berkeleyearth.lbl.gov/air-quality/local/Thailand/Bangkok/Bangkok

 

For example:

 

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 minutes ago, JoshBe said:

 

Amen! Yesterday I ordered the Sharp purifier out of frustration. In hindsight, I should've probably ordered Hatari one because of the cheaper and easier to obtain filters (thank you for doing the research by the way!)

 

The JBS Co. in Bangkok does have filters for the Sharp units. I asked my wife to call this afternoon and check with the business owner there as to whether they were OEM Sharp filters or generic filters that will fit the Sharp units. My concern about the generics is, especially here, you can never be sure what kind of quality you're getting, and that obviously is crucial when it comes to a HEPA filter.

 

Unfortunately, my wife botched understanding my request, so I'll have her try again tomorrow, and will post the results here, as to OEM or generic. If you'd like an email or phone number for that business, just send me a PM. But as I said, the owner there speaks just a bare bit of English.

 

[JoshBe]

9 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Since you have a PM monitor, have you ever tried to compare street level measurement to rooftop, 30th floor or above, measurements on the same day?

It does seem like the haze is somewhat low hanging.

Are you in Bangkok by the way?

 

 

I'd be interested to know that as well. Could be a factor when moving to a new apartment.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

At least for Bangkok, the Berkeley site also has a nice graphic that shows the seasonal aspects of PM2.5, with the Nov-March time frame typically having the highest levels.

 

Hopefully there's an end to the worst of it in sight since we're now in mid-March. But as you can see from the graph below, it doesn't get to be GOOD (green) too often. The red dotted line I believe is Bangkok's annual average for PM2.5 of just over 25 μg/m³

 

But the two lines on this graph are showing monthly and annual average readings, which tend to hide the shorter term day to day spike HIGH readings like we've been getting this week.

 

 

This part was the more pertinent values for me for Bangkok:

 

WHO Standard:

Daily average PM_2.5 not exceed 25 μg/m³ on more than 3 days per year

Days exceeding standard: 140

 

US EPA Standard:

Daily average PM_2.5 not exceed 35 μg/m³ on more than 7 days per year

Days exceeding standard: 62

Edited March 13, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[SoilSpoil]

46 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

At least for Bangkok, the Berkeley site also has a nice graphic that shows the seasonal aspects of PM2.5, with the Nov-March time frame typically having the highest levels.

 

Hopefully there's an end to the worst of it in sight since we're now in mid-March. But as you can see from the graph below, it doesn't get to be GOOD (green) too often. The red dotted line I believe is Bangkok's annual average for PM2.5 of just over 25 μg/m³

 

But the two lines on this graph are showing monthly and annual average readings, which tend to hide the shorter term day to day spike HIGH readings like we've been getting this week.

 

 

This part was the more pertinent values for me for Bangkok:

 

WHO Standard:

Daily average PM_2.5 not exceed 25 μg/m³ on more than 3 days per year

Days exceeding standard: 140

 

US EPA Standard:

Daily average PM_2.5 not exceed 35 μg/m³ on more than 7 days per year

Days exceeding standard: 62

 This site opened a can of worms, hasnt it.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, JoshBe said:

 

I found here some details how the Sharp ionizer works: https://www.theairpurifiers.com/sharp_plasmacluster_ion.html

Apparently it still creates ozone but much less than common ioniziers... whatever that means in term of health effects I don't know :)

 

 

Because of all the ionizer features on a lot of the air purifier models sold here, I was reading up on the ozone creation issue for ionizing devices, and found this useful info from the California Air Resources Board.

 

Since 2010, CA has had a law mandating that air purifiers sold in the state must produce less than 0.050 ppm of ozone. The state's standards for ozone in ambient outdoors air are 0.09 ppm for a 1-hour average, and 0.070 ppm for an 8-hour average.

 

The graph below shows by the air purifier standard is set lower, because the devices emitting ozone in an enclosed space will quickly begin to multiply the exposure levels.

 

So, having read that, especially for devices sold here in Thailand, I'd be pretty averse to running any ionizing feature on an air purifier. And if I bought an air purifier with an ionizing feature, I'd want to make sure I had the ability to turn that feature OFF.

 

 

https://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/acrfactsheet.pdf

 

[edwardandtubs]

8 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Except seemingly no flat-front box fans -- the kind suitable for strapping a HEPA filter onto the front -- to be found in Thailand...  Everything seems to be the pedestal/stand kind or the wall attached kind with circular and curved van enclosures.

 

There are a few such fans that are suitable but you have to wait through a lot of the other ones on Lazada or similar websites.

[edwardandtubs]

3 hours ago, JoshBe said:

 

I'd be interested to know that as well. Could be a factor when moving to a new apartment.

 

There was an article published that showed it made no difference in Beijing so I assume the same is true of Bangkok.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

45 minutes ago, edwardandtubs said:

There are a few such fans that are suitable but you have to wait through a lot of the other ones on Lazada or similar websites.

 

If you've found one or more, please post the links here.

 

I waded thru all of Lazada TH that I could find, and found nothing that seemed suitable.