not allowed on the airport to enter by tourist visa.

[Faeton]

About the car and bikes.
I made out with a tourist visa  a car and bikes.
In Bangkok.
There were no problems.
But that was 2 years ago.
The only thing that was required was a certificate of the place of registration.

[jackdd]

28 minutes ago, Faeton said:

I do not think so. The staff works for me. I officially pay them salaries, insurance and taxes.
I just do not work myself. 

And who tells the staff what to do? And you don't get any money from the company?

[Faeton]

16 minutes ago, jackdd said:

And who tells the staff what to do? And you don't get any money from the company?

train  staff does not fall under the law of Thailand.
until you personally take orders, money, serve people, work behind the bar, show trips to tourists for money, etc and pay taxes for a Thai company, pay insurance for your staff , there are no problems.

the shareholder of the company receives dividends.
he may not even live in Thailand.
you invested in the company.

 

correct me please if I'm wrong
 

Edited January 27, 2018 by Faeton

[jackdd]

2 minutes ago, Faeton said:

train  staff does not fall under the law of Thailand.

Why do you think so? Source? Once somebody on this forum here posted about fixing something in his own house by himself, and then he had problems because an immigration police officer said that's work which he is not allowed to do without a work permit. Teaching the neighbours children for free is also considered work, so i'm quite sure training staff for work is considered work.

[Faeton]

4 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Why do you think so? Source? Once somebody on this forum here posted about fixing something in his own house by himself, and then he had problems because an immigration police officer said that's work which he is not allowed to do without a work permit. Teaching the neighbours children for free is also considered work, so i'm quite sure training staff for work is considered work.

 

I do not know exactly what the owner of the house did.
he could repair electrical wires, etc. or something else.
teach for free in NOT working hours of your business  is 100% possible.
You can find fault with anything. It is very easy to bypass the law in any country.

[stevenl]

8 minutes ago, Faeton said:

 

I do not know exactly what the owner of the house did.
he could repair electrical wires, etc. or something else.
teach for free in NOT working hours of your business  is 100% possible.
You can find fault with anything. It is very easy to bypass the law in any country.

No, you need a workpermit.

 

So the IO was correct in refusing you entry. He gave the wrong reason, but the underlying cause was true: suspicion of working illegally.

 

New passport does not reset btw, name and DOB will be linked to old information.

[Faeton]

24 minutes ago, stevenl said:

No, you need a workpermit.

 

So the IO was correct in refusing you entry. He gave the wrong reason, but the underlying cause was true: suspicion of working illegally.

 

New passport does not reset btw, name and DOB will be linked to old information.

 

 

Yes, I do not argue that they did everything right, although they circumvented their own law.
but it's okay, they were lucky.
I know a dozen Europeans who have lived for years on tourist visas.
and who does not have any businesses in Thailand.
and they are less than 50

As for the passport, I consulted exactly in the immigration service.

but for now I will try to make a work visa for a start.
it is more advantageous for me in time.
  not more than.

[steve187]

so op it seems you are living in Thailand and working,  it would seem you are running a touist bar/hotel on Koh Chang, using a tourist visa, why not get the correct visa and a work permit,

[Faeton]

10 minutes ago, steve187 said:

so op it seems you are living in Thailand and working,  it would seem you are running a touist bar/hotel on Koh Chang, using a tourist visa, why not get the correct visa and a work permit,

 

 

Steve.
I wrote earlier that Koh Chang has great problems with lawyers.

There everything is built on a corrupt scheme. In this regard, they can not even prepare papers.
And since the company is registered on Ko Chang, lawyers from Bangkok or Pattaya do not want to go on as this is not their jurisdiction.

 

[KiChakayan]

2 hours ago, Faeton said:

 

new passport have a new number and its not at the system. And there is no marks about last number of passport. Thailand airport dont do finger scan. So new passport it is new life.

May I tell you, as politely as possible, that you have no idea.

Before settling here I used my Australian passport. But, since I was resident of France I had to use my French passport to get a NON O-A in Paris. When I crossed the border in Suvarnabhumi, the nice sexy IO looked a bit puzzled when looking at her screen and then said: "Oohh you got two passports? ", "Yes Madam" was my answer. End of story.

 

It shows you however that they are clever enough to do multi-criteria searches, piece of cake to look up by surname and DOB, which in my case returns only one item.

 

No rocket science at all, my ex-wife collaborated, back in 1983, with immigration in Canberra to develop a phonetics name matching algorithm. 1983 was still stone age, computing wise.

[KiChakayan]

36 minutes ago, Faeton said:

 

 

Steve.
I wrote earlier that Koh Chang has great problems with lawyers.

There everything is built on a corrupt scheme. In this regard, they can not even prepare papers.
And since the company is registered on Ko Chang, lawyers from Bangkok or Pattaya do not want to go on as this is not their jurisdiction.
 

Man, I am going to be blunt: you deserve all the trouble you might be in. You are running a business while staying on Tourist Visas, just mind boggling! The whole thread should be removed as it strongly suggests illegal activity, which is squarely against TV forum rules.

Edited January 28, 2018 by KiChakayan

[overherebc]

20 minutes ago, KiChakayan said:

Man, I am going to be blunt: you deserve all the trouble you might be in. You are running a business while staying on Tourist Visas, just mind boggling! The whole thread should be removed as it strongly suggests illegal activity, which is squarely against TV forum rules.

The thread will most likely turn into a discussion regards what is or what is not working.

[BEVUP]

3 minutes ago, overherebc said:

The thread will most likely turn into a discussion regards what is or what is not working.

Exactly so I will start

 

He would be classed as working (every hr here is classed as business hrs) not like the west, or if a bar here has to shut at a certain time (there are chores to be done prior to opening for next day )

Your Training episode is assisting the company to acheive income by providing a service from trained staff

Do we need to go into handling the Finances (not really ) as we know that would be classed as a Financial Controller maybe catergorised in a Finance department 

[overherebc]

31 minutes ago, BEVUP said:

Exactly so I will start

 

He would be classed as working (every hr here is classed as business hrs) not like the west, or if a bar here has to shut at a certain time (there are chores to be done prior to opening for next day )

Your Training episode is assisting the company to acheive income by providing a service from trained staff

Do we need to go into handling the Finances (not really ) as we know that would be classed as a Financial Controller maybe catergorised in a Finance department 

No arguement there.

Seems like someone is going to inheret a business with trained staff etc for not much effort other than a phone call.

[JackThompson]

19 hours ago, Just Weird said:

Unless he was using the visa as a way to live here, which he was.  Tourist visas are not intended to be a way for people to live here.

Tourist Visas are "intended to be a way" for people to enter and receive 60-days permitted-stay upon entry, extendable by 30 more, at the discretion of immigration.  Repeat visits are in no way restricted by law or ministerial order.  There is no reason to invent/assume non-existent additional restrictions on their use.

 

Quote

From the OP..."Or try to make papers for ED visa and then make ED visa and go to Thailand?'

This is about a person who, because of the difficulty he was in, was going to try "to make papers" for an education visa as a way of getting round not being allowed in.  He's happy to abuse the system that way so it wouldn't be a surprise if he had done it another way previously.

Yes - "make papers" would mean "Sign up at a school" - nothing wrong with that. 

 

It is unfortunate that corruption among Immigration officials allows some to get ED extensions without attending school via "arrangements," but (there is no evidence the OP was not going to attend classes - EDIT I stand corrected, he did suggest this later.) - nor is it "us farang's fault" that Immigration is rife with corruption. 

 

If the Immigration chiefs would fix the widespread corruption problem infecting many offices, it would be much easier for honest longer-stayers like me (married to a Thai) to get honest-service.

Edited January 28, 2018 by JackThompson

[JackThompson]

16 hours ago, marke985 said:

I have a lot of compassion for your situation.  I have been here for the last 3 years on Single Entry visas and the occasional exempt entry.  I'm in the Philippines now, been here 13 days and have a ticket to BKK on the 30th.  I can say, that if I went through the same routine/treatment as you I'm not sure I would want to come back to Thailand again.

For a stress-free experience, come in via any land border except Poipet - and have 20K Baht worth of cash - and no more than 2 visa-exempts (by land) per calendar year, and you will not ever be rejected entry (unless something changes in the future).  Flying to Penang and taking the Train from there across and to Hat Yai, then domestic-air from there, would be my plan.

 

4 hours ago, Faeton said:

Anyway now it is weekend, so i just take a flight  to Vietnam from KL.

And on monday i will get an answer about making non-b visa for my  old passport with that stamp. If i get confirmation... that it will be ok for immigration.

If you can get a B-Visa, that is definitely preferable - you could even fly into the country, instead of using safe land-borders to enter (all but Poipet), as those using Tourist-Visas frequently should always do (if they don't want to risk trouble, as you experienced).

 

4 hours ago, Faeton said:

... Air Asia staff with who i fly back to KL tell me that in Don Mueng airport them are more stronger then in Suvarnabhumi at the moment ( but maybe them just talk).

That used to be more true in the past - many reports of denials at both, now.

 

4 hours ago, Faeton said:

If you real tourist it should be no problem. But if you would like to stay long time, better to do ED visa without going to school. If you will not go out for travelling from Thailand  will be no questions. 

Due to corruption at some immigration offices - yes - precisely why they had a "crackdown" - to increase the thickness and frequency of brown-envelopes for ED-extensions.  At some offices, even if you attend classes, you must pay the "extra fee" to avoid hassles for extensions.  At those offices, there is no differentiation between "good guys" and "bad guys" - unless "good" means "gets me brown-envelope money."

 

Since the number of hours has been lowered to a reasonable level (in some areas), there is no point in not going to classes, getting your money's worth, and being legit.  Why lie, when you can benefit from doing the right thing?

 

4 hours ago, Faeton said:

...  But apparently the sweet times of Thailand are finally over and I now have no other choice - just make a business visa and work officially.

Little has changed in the last few years, as to frequent Tourist Visa use.  Airports have been risky for awhile.  Always enter by land (not Poipet) - even with have a passport full of Tourist Visas - no problem with a new, valid visa and 20K Baht.

 

4 hours ago, Faeton said:

... about the confirmation of income from another country.
really they do not care.
built on I "believe you" or "do not believe".

...

and I do not think that they will delve into statements from foreign bank accounts
I had both dollars and euros and Thai bats worth more than 50,000 in cash. But they looked and said they did not want to look at it.

They did not cancel my visa. They simply deceived their own system so as not to let me in. With the verdict, there is no money to come to the kingdom.
For the main reason - "I do not believe".

Yes, some suggest carrying documents.  I always did, but was never asked, because I used friendly land-borders.  I have no idea what documents would work, though.  Another commented on this point ...

 

18 hours ago, 007 RED said:

The OP was refused entry on the grounds of Section 12(2) of the Immigration Act (as shown in his post #28). – "Having no appropriate means of living following entrance to the Kingdom". 
I suspect that the OP did not give the senior IO in the ‘back office’ satisfactory answers/evidence as to how he funded his previous/proposed stay(s) leading the IO to suspect that the OP may have been working to fund his stay(s).  The IO only needs reasonable grounds to suspect that the OP was working in order fund his stay(s) to refuse entry on the grounds of 12(2).

So they assumed he was working illegally.  What paperwork has immigration defined as acceptable, to avoid being rejected entry on these grounds?  And who knows if they would just say, "I don't believe..."  Consider that they didn't care he had 50K Baht in cash - hardly what someone working "under the table" in Thailand would be likely to have in their pocket.

 

4 hours ago, Faeton said:

More than 180 days on a tourist visa is bad.

... but once again I remind you I had 4 tourist visas in a row in this passport.

Who really is a tourist should not be affected in any way.

The "180 days" is something an IO at the airport made up and told you.  It has no basis in law or fact.  There is No Limit on the number of days you can be in Thailand on a Tourist Visa.  As long as you did not overstay and are not working here, you can use Tourist Visas to come back to the country repeatedly.

 

4 hours ago, Faeton said:

... It's just stupid because  now I'm spending money in another country that I could spend in Thailand.

The IOs apparently don't care that their actions deprive Thais of business, and hurt their countrymen.  I am glad to hear the business you own stayed open - keeping at least those Thai employees working and getting paid.  At other businesses, many Thais have undoubtedly lost their jobs, as a direct result of this type of treatment of entrants at airport-immigration.

 

Note that immigration issues work-visas to low-wage foreign-workers from nearby countries with ease (though one I spoke to said there is a similar "agent-scheme" rip-off done to these poor folks).  Those legal visas do 1000x more damage to Thai's job-availability and wage-levels than if every Farang in the country worked illegally.  The hypocrisy is beyond imagination.

[Dmitry2222]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

So the IO was correct in refusing you entry. He gave the wrong reason, but the underlying cause was true: suspicion of working illegally.

They had not proofs. Its working on areas, flavored with personal factor.

 

[Dmitry2222]

5 hours ago, Faeton said:

I had both dollars and euros and Thai bats worth more than 50,000 in cash.

I can be mistaken, but for tourist which spend more then half year in the trip it is not convincing amount (50 000 THB). May be bank statement with equivalent of the 1MB satisfied the IO.

[Just Weird]

59 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Tourist Visas are "intended to be a way" for people to enter and receive 60-days permitted-stay upon entry, extendable by 30 more, at the discretion of immigration.  Repeat visits are in no way restricted by law or ministerial order.  There is no reason to invent/assume non-existent additional restrictions on their use.

 

Yes - "make papers" would mean "Sign up at a school" - nothing wrong with that. 

 

It is unfortunate that corruption among Immigration officials allows some to get ED extensions without attending school via "arrangements," but (there is no evidence the OP was not going to attend classes - EDIT I stand corrected, he did suggest this later.) - nor is it "us farang's fault" that Immigration is rife with corruption. 

 

 

"Repeat visits are in no way restricted by law or ministerial order".

You're absolutely right in what you say there but they can be restricted by an IO if there is a suspicion that the holder of the visa is misusing it in order to live in the country without the proper visa, as the OP is clearly doing.  No one is "inventing/assuming" non-existent restrictions in this case. 

 

"Yes - "make papers" would mean "Sign up at a school" - nothing wrong with that".

How do you know what the OP meant by that?  If that was a genuine reason why did he not do it originally and not just consider it now as an afterthought when he's been rejected?

[ubonjoe]

3 minutes ago, Dmitry2222 said:

I can be mistaken, but for tourist which spend more then half year in the trip it is not convincing amount (50 000 THB). May be bank statement with equivalent of the 1MB satisfied the IO.

A tourist visa only allows a 60 day entry that can be extended for 30 days. 

The requirement for entry is to have equivalent of 20k baht in cash to show.  A bank statement would not be accepted to meet the requirement. If they were going to say you they think you are working here a bank statement showing funds from outside the country would be accepted.

 

[ubonjoe]

A off topic inflammatory post meant to derail the topic has been removed.

[stevenl]

36 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

For a stress-free experience, come in via any land border except Poipet - and have 20K Baht worth of cash - and no more than 2 visa-exempts (by land) per calendar year, and you will not ever be rejected entry (unless something changes in the future).  Flying to Penang and taking the Train from there across and to Hat Yai, then domestic-air from there, would be my plan.

 

If you can get a B-Visa, that is definitely preferable - you could even fly into the country, instead of using safe land-borders to enter (all but Poipet), as those using Tourist-Visas frequently should always do (if they don't want to risk trouble, as you experienced).

 

That used to be more true in the past - many reports of denials at both, now.

 

Due to corruption at some immigration offices - yes - precisely why they had a "crackdown" - to increase the thickness and frequency of brown-envelopes for ED-extensions.  At some offices, even if you attend classes, you must pay the "extra fee" to avoid hassles for extensions.  At those offices, there is no differentiation between "good guys" and "bad guys" - unless "good" means "gets me brown-envelope money."

 

Since the number of hours has been lowered to a reasonable level (in some areas), there is no point in not going to classes, getting your money's worth, and being legit.  Why lie, when you can benefit from doing the right thing?

 

Little has changed in the last few years, as to frequent Tourist Visa use.  Airports have been risky for awhile.  Always enter by land (not Poipet) - even with have a passport full of Tourist Visas - no problem with a new, valid visa and 20K Baht.

 

Yes, some suggest carrying documents.  I always did, but was never asked, because I used friendly land-borders.  I have no idea what documents would work, though.  Another commented on this point ...

 

So they assumed he was working illegally.  What paperwork has immigration defined as acceptable, to avoid being rejected entry on these grounds?  And who knows if they would just say, "I don't believe..."  Consider that they didn't care he had 50K Baht in cash - hardly what someone working "under the table" in Thailand would be likely to have in their pocket.

 

The "180 days" is something an IO at the airport made up and told you.  It has no basis in law or fact.  There is No Limit on the number of days you can be in Thailand on a Tourist Visa.  As long as you did not overstay and are not working here, you can use Tourist Visas to come back to the country repeatedly.

 

The IOs apparently don't care that their actions deprive Thais of business, and hurt their countrymen.  I am glad to hear the business you own stayed open - keeping at least those Thai employees working and getting paid.  At other businesses, many Thais have undoubtedly lost their jobs, as a direct result of this type of treatment of entrants at airport-immigration.

 

Note that immigration issues work-visas to low-wage foreign-workers from nearby countries with ease (though one I spoke to said there is a similar "agent-scheme" rip-off done to these poor folks).  Those legal visas do 1000x more damage to Thai's job-availability and wage-levels than if every Farang in the country worked illegally.  The hypocrisy is beyond imagination.

You're omitting the part where the OP is admitting he is working in Thailand ( without calling it work).

 

And it is the people working illegally who are to blame, not the IO's.

Edited January 28, 2018 by stevenl

[stevenl]

32 minutes ago, Dmitry2222 said:

They had not proofs. Its working on areas, flavored with personal factor.

 

They don't need proof, OP did not meet the entry requirement, see 007 RED's post.

Edited January 28, 2018 by stevenl

[JackThompson]

10 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You're omitting the part where the OP is admitting he is working in Thailand ( without calling it work).

 

And it is the people working illegally who are to blame, not the IO's.

I'm not sure if he is or not - not clear what role he has, exactly - beyond shareholder and someone responsible for Thais having jobs - but no sense trying to litigate that question here (would go on forever). 

Unless that activity came up during his discussion with the IO, and his role as he described it was determined to be "work" by the IO - it would not change my perspective on how he was treated. 

[Dmitry2222]

20 minutes ago, stevenl said:

They don't need proof, OP did not meet the entry requirement, see 007 RED's post.

20 hours ago, 007 RED said:

The OP was refused entry on the grounds of Section 12(2) of the Immigration Act (as shown in his post #28). – "Having no appropriate means of living following entrance to the Kingdom".

 

I suspect that the OP did not give the senior IO in the ‘back office’ satisfactory answers/evidence as to how he funded his previous/proposed stay(s) leading the IO to suspect that the OP may have been working to fund his stay(s).  The IO only needs reasonable grounds to suspect that the OP was working in order fund his stay(s) to refuse entry on the grounds of 12(2)

 

Therefore i made post about the bank statement. It could be the answer for the question: how he funded his previous/proposed stay(s)? So, the work of the OP seems not to be the main reason for the refusal of the entrance. Actually they did not know does him working or not in Thailand and they had not proofs for it.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Dmitry2222

[007 RED]

6 hours ago, Faeton said:

 

new passport have a new number and its not at the system. And there is no marks about last number of passport. Thailand airport dont do finger scan. So new passport it is new life. I dont know number at  new passport change or not in another countries, but for mine is like that. Also in mine you can have 2 active passport for travel. (i have 2 passport, but one of them do not have any space. My country do it, because if you have once visa to Iran or simular countries you will never get visa to U.S after that or if you want to have a visa for some country you need keep your passport and wait, so you can use another one for travel in that dates ). And both passport have different no., and nothing says between them.

I would gladly get a new passport for a new one instead of a full one. But only it can be received within 2-3 months in any country except mine.

OP… Lots of people have more than one passport, and you are correct when you say that there is nothing on the passports to indicate the other passport number.  But from there on you are totally wrong.

 

You have no doubt already presented one passport to Thai immigration on several occasions during your 2 year stay in Thailand.  The details of that passport (as captured from the bottom of the photo page between <<<< >>>>) are in the immigration computer database together with your entry and exit history.

 

When you present a new (or second) passport to the IO on arrival, the IO will scan the photo page and the information between the <<<< >>>> at the bottom of the page are sent to the immigration database. 

 

The computer system will immediately detect that the new (or second) passport number is not known to the system.  It then does a comparison check using the country code + gender + date of birth + family name + first name(s), and what do you think the system will show? 

 

Answer = The system will show that the second passport matches the details of the first passport. 

 

The computer system will then advise the IO that there is a second passport and show him/her the photo that was taken the last time you exited Thailand (26 January 2017) on the old passport.  The IO will then confirm that the two passports belong to the same person and the immigration system will link both passports.  Once the two passports have been linked the IO will see all of your entry/exit history.

 

So changing your passport will not wipe the ‘history slate clean’ with Thai Immigration.

[007 RED]

6 hours ago, Faeton said:

....and this amazing Thailand violates its own legislation.

Wrong…. Thailand did not violate its own legislation…. You did.

 

You openly state in previous posts that you:

 

a) Own a small business;

Train the staff;

c) Officially pay their salaries, insurance and taxes;

d) Receive dividends (income) from the company.

 

As you have also stated in one of your posts that the company was set up by a lawyer and that they are all corrupt.  The chances are that the company is a ‘fake’ company using proxy shareholders.  Foreigners cannot own a company in Thailand, they can only own 49% of the shares with Thais owning 51%.  This means that you don’t own the company.

[007 RED]

6 hours ago, Faeton said:

Anyway now it is weekend, so i just take a flight  to Vietnam from KL.
And on monday i will get an answer about making non-b visa for my  old passport with that stamp. If i get confirmation... that it will be ok for immigration.

Do it because its more easy way for me and i will spend less time and nerves then i go to my country.

 

So you’re going to get a business visa from the Thai Embassy/Consulate in Vietnam… Do you know what documents you will have to submit in order to obtain that type of visa?

 

Please take a look at the requirements:

 

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15388-Non-Immigrant-Visa-"B"-(for-Business-and.html

 

All I can say is best of luck as I don’t see how you are going to provide:

 

 - Letter from the applicant’s company indicating the applicant’s position, length of employment, salary and purpose of visit(s) to Thailand.
            - Documents showing correspondence with business partners in Thailand.
            - Evidence of financial status in the case where the applicant is self-employed.
            - Letter of invitation from trading or associated partners/companies in Thailand.
            - Corporate documents of associated partners/companies in Thailand such as:
            1) business registration and business license
            2) list of shareholders
            3) company profile
            4) details of business operation
            5) map indicating location of the company
            6) balance sheet, statement of Income Tax and Business Tax (Por
Ngor Dor 50 and Por Ngor Dor 30) of the latest year

 

[stevenl]

31 minutes ago, Dmitry2222 said:

 

Therefore i made post about the bank statement. It could be the answer for the question: how he funded his previous/proposed stay(s)? So, the work of the OP seems not to be the main reason for the refusal of the entrance. Actually they did not know does him working or not in Thailand and they had not proofs for it.

"So, the work of the OP seems not to be the main reason for the refusal of the entrance. "

 

Not the real reason? Not the stated reason, but very, very likely the real reason. As mentioned already, but you keep it going: proof is not required.

[Mattd]

45 minutes ago, Dmitry2222 said:

So, the work of the OP seems not to be the main reason for the refusal of the entrance. Actually they did not know does him working or not in Thailand and they had not proofs for it.

Even if they had no concrete proof, they obviously had the suspicion, this was even confirmed by the OP himself when he supposedly contacted somebody he knew in BKK airport immigration.

I suspect that there is a lot more behind this refusal than we are being told.