Thinking of retiring

[900312611]

Hello:

I am 72 yo and USA citizen, born and raised. My wife, now 69 yo, came to the US as a nanny for a couple in 1975, we met in 1976, and married in 1977, she then became a naturalized citizen in 1979 and has a US passport stating US citizen/home country Thailand.; we are both retired and are ‘considering’ selling and moving to Thailand  for our remaining  years. In 2015 the last time she went home/Thailand  to visit her sisters she stayed 3 months; when she went to come home she had to pay a fine for overstaying the 30 entry visa. She, along with her sisters, told them she was a Thai citizen and even showed her updated Thai ID card; they told her even though she is considered a Thai citizen she came to Thailand on a US passport so that’s why the fine (something like $200).  My limited understanding is I am pretty much not allowed to own much of anything when coming to Thailand, but does that also include my wife since her passport says US citizen and we would both be coming into Thailand on US passports…we would have more than enough money to open a Thai bank account and also have enough money coming in each month for the 2 months needed for I think what’s called a retirement visa and would rent for awhile before looking for a house (we really want a house and when we pass it can go to one of her sisters) but can this bank account be a joint account just like in the US?  We’re not rich by any means but could easily afford a visa service for I think I understand is 90 days paperwork instead of going in person but am also wondering about what I keep reading is a 90 visa run across the border; is this something that is still done; when her sisters came to visit us last year they didn’t think it was done anymore, of course they aren’t border agents either. We are both very much accustomed to American TV and also high speed, 100Mbps, cable internet; our intended city of choice is Chiang Mai and we can afford $2000+ US/month rent are these available? What problems/obstacles are ahead of us and would my wife fact the same obstacles as I would? Thank You              

[Dexlowe]

You raise an awful lot of issues, but obviously are being sensible about it all by being very thorough. Wise. A lot of people will come by shortly to offer advice, bless their little cotton socks, and in the meantime, go through this thread thoroughly as it's chock full of great info -- any issues that seem contradictory to you should be noted and discussed in separate threads, but put a link in this thread so that others in your situation can benefit from your labours.

 

I just want to comment on the passport situation. If your wife still has her Thai ID, why do you not get a Thai passport for her? My daughter has Thai and NZ passports -- she uses her Thai one when she comes to Thailand (and leaves), and her NZ one for everything else. If the Thai embassy/consulate in America won't issue her with one, then wait until you get to Thailand and sort it out (conveniently forgetting to mention her American details, of course). It will save a lot of hassle.

 

All the best.

[Ruffian Dick]

You're asking lots of questions.

As far as your wife's citizenship, you might want to consult with the embassy. But as far as I know, if you renounce a country's citizenship you pretty much lose any benefits accruing thereto. She might even have a hard time getting Thai citizenship back; I know Japan's real hard-nosed in this regard.

And beware, Chiang Mai is getting VERY crowded and polluted; it's on the verge of losing its "magical" status.

[wayned]

If your wife doesn't have a Thai passport she should get one from the Thai Embassy or Consulate.  There is no problem with a US citizen having dual citizenship.  She should always enter and leave Thailand using her Thai Passport and she should always enter and leave the US using her US Passport.  There will be no problem for her to remain in Thailand if she does this as she is a Thai Citizen and she has entered using her Thai passport.

 

You should either apply for a non immigrant "O" visa or and "OA" visa.  If you come to Thailand on the Non "O" you can apply for yearly extensions since you are married to a Thai.   The financial requirement is either have 400,000 baht in a Thai Bank account, in your name only, or prove that you income is at least 40,000 baht/month.  It very easy to get an income affidavit from the Embassy in Bangkok or the Consulate in Chiang Mai.  It's a motorized declaration, no proof required, and costs $50..  You will have to renew the extension every year.  The other option is that you could apply for a retirement extension, the requirements change to 800,000 or 60,000/month but is quicker to get and requires less paperwork.  You wife will have no problem getting  a joint  bank account.  I would recommend Bangkok Bank as they have a branch in New York and are the only bank authorized to accept direct federal retirement payments.

 

I've been here 20 years with no problems after I understood the requirements.  Good luck!

Edited January 26, 2018 by wayned

[Lite Beer]

Your Wife is Thai. She should get a Thai Passport.

 

As said, 400,000 in the bank or 40,000 monthly income for having a Thai Wife.

 

800,000 or 65,000 monthly income or a combination of both for Retirement.

 

The choice is yours.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Lite Beer

[yooper]

Just finished going thru the whole mess. I am 71, wife is 67.   We were told by numerous sources including the Thai Embassy in Chicago, US embassy in Bangkok, and a couple of Thai Immigration people that my wife could regain her Thai citizenship but it is not true. If you move permanently to Thailand she may regain citizenship after 5 years but immigration laws here change quite frequently.  You can get a retirement visa quite easily and don't need a bank account to get it although you will want one for personal reasons I can discuss with you later if you wish.  You need to come into Thailand wth a Non Immigrant type O visa, not a tourist visa. After you arrive you make an appointment at the US embassy to execute a sworn affidavit that your monthly income is xxxxxx, it has to be greater than THB 65,000.  When you arrive, be sure your landlord reports your address to immigration, you will need that proof.  We came on a 1 yr O-visa to insure there was time to accomplish everything, we rented an apartment and have a permanent address.  

 

This is the template I followed, the only glitch was that it doesn't mention the proof of previous address reporting,  it was easily resolved.

http://www.samutprakanimmigration.go.th/listof-documents-for-retirement-visa/

 

I highly recommend this immigration office, they are extremely friendly even  if they were mistaken that my wife should be able to regain her citizenship.  It turns out that is because she is a 'foreign citizen" (w/ foreign passport) who has a permanent residence outside of Thailand.  Exceptions can be made if a spouse dies and the Thai person returns to Thailand permanently but true knowledge among Thai 'officials' seems to be scarce.  

 

With a retirement visa, you still need to do a 'border run' once a year, and report your address every 90 days but apparently the reporting can now be done online, and an annual border run can be enjoyable and inexpensive. Upon re-entry you get another year permission to stay.... up to 10 years, who knows what new rules will be around by then?

 

[ubonjoe]

3 hours ago, 900312611 said:

She, along with her sisters, told them she was a Thai citizen and even showed her updated Thai ID card; they told her even though she is considered a Thai citizen she came to Thailand

It seems a few people missed this in the OP.

She has not lost her Thai nationality. All she need to is apply for a Thai passport and then enter the country using it instead of her US passport.

[yooper]

fwiw, you cannot get a Thai passport without a Thai ID card. If you have a valid Thai ID card you might be able to get a passport if you don't mention you are a foreign national. My wife had her whole history from birth documented and was placed on her sisters house registration and was still denied a new Thai ID card.  That is not to say that it can't be done, just saying that it appears that it would not be legal under Thai law.

 

Unless you can read Thai, this link might help to understand why:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_nationality_law

 

[wayned]

3 minutes ago, yooper said:

my wife could regain her Thai citizenship but it is not true.

If you read the OP his wife has a valid Thai Id card so she is legally a Thai citizen.  In order to get the cards she must still be registered in a Tambian Baan here.

[Lite Beer]

It is pointless recommending Immigration Offices.

He intends to live in ChiangMai so will have to use the one there. (good luck with that)

Hi Wife is Thai and always will be.

 

[Orton Rd]

3 minutes ago, yooper said:

 

This is the template I followed, the only glitch was that it doesn't mention the proof of previous address reporting,  it was easily resolved.

http://www.samutprakanimmigration.go.th/listof-documents-for-retirement-visa/

 

I highly recommend this immigration office, they are extremely friendly even  if they were mistaken that my wife should be able to regain her citizenship. 

 

 

This is an office that does 'not really' do postal 90 day reports, needs 5 passport copies to do a 90 report and where an officer once told me they did 'not do extensions' and to go to Suan Phlu (lived in SP). Like all other offices can be both good and bad.

[yooper]

1 minute ago, ubonjoe said:

It seems a few people missed this in the OP.

She has not lost her Thai nationality. All she need to is apply for a Thai passport and then enter the country using it instead of her US passport.

correct that she has not lost her nationality,  but she has lost her citizenship once she becoms a permanent resident and citizen in another country 

[ubonjoe]

5 minutes ago, yooper said:

 We were told by numerous sources including the Thai Embassy in Chicago, US embassy in Bangkok, and a couple of Thai Immigration people that my wife could regain her Thai citizenship but it is not true. If you move permanently to Thailand she may regain citizenship after 5 years but immigration laws here change quite frequently. 

Complete rubbish you were told. There is no such 5 year rule. Immigration as nothing to do with Thai nationality issues. That is function of the interior ministry. Most issues can be handled at the local Amphoe.

[Lite Beer]

7 minutes ago, yooper said:

  With a retirement visa, you still need to do a 'border run' once a year, and report your address every 90 days but apparently the reporting can now be done online, and an annual border run can be enjoyable and inexpensive. Upon re-entry you get another year permission to stay.... up to 10 years, who knows what new rules will be around by then?

 

Total nonsence.

[bkk6060]

You have 2,000 US a month for rent you can live like a king in CM.

[ubonjoe]

1 minute ago, yooper said:

correct that she has not lost her nationality,  but she has lost her citizenship once she becoms a permanent resident and citizen in another country 

That is not true. There is no difference between nationality and citizenship. Just a difference in the word used.

There is no Thai law that states a Thai loses their citizenship when they become a permanent resident or citizen of another country.

[yooper]

3 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

This is an office that does 'not really' do postal 90 day reports, needs 5 passport copies to do a 90 report and where an officer once told me they did 'not do extensions' and to go to Suan Phlu (lived in SP). Like all other offices can be both good and bad.

don't know about 'postal;' reports,  but they did tell us to come there to report.  Not a big deal for us, there is lots of great food out in the parking lot. If the online reporting does't run into serious problems I believe keeping printed copies of approvals would suffice to keep one out of trouble...

[yooper]

3 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not true. There is no difference between nationality and citizenship. Just a difference in the word used.

There is no Thai law that states a Thai loses their citizenship when they become a permanent resident or citizen of another country.

[ubonjoe]

@yooper I suggest you read the latest  amended edition of the Nationality Act B.E. 2508 (1965) with amendments until B.E. 2555 (2012)

I think you will find the info posted on Pantip ( not exactly a great source of information) is quoting previous editions of the nationality act.

[yooper]

8 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

@yooper I suggest you read the latest  amended edition of the Nationality Act B.E. 2508 (1965) with amendments until B.E. 2555 (2012)

I think you will find the info posted on Pantip ( not exactly a great source of information) is quoting previous editions of the nationality act.

 

 

 

http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/506c08862.pdf

11 Section 9/1 through 9/7 as amended by Nationality Act (5) B.E. 2555 (2012)

Translated by Bongkot Napaumporn and Dunnapar Tilakamonkul Updated on 19 September 2012

 

 

(1) becoming sui juris in accordance with Thai law and the law under which he has nationality;

(2) having good behavior;

(3) having regular occupation;

(4) having a domicile in the Thai Kingdom for a consecutive period of not less than five years till the day of filing the application for naturalization;

(5) having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations.

 

[yooper]

10 minutes ago, yooper said:

 

 

 

http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/506c08862.pdf

11 Section 9/1 through 9/7 as amended by Nationality Act (5) B.E. 2555 (2012)

Translated by Bongkot Napaumporn and Dunnapar Tilakamonkul Updated on 19 September 2012

 

 

(1) becoming sui juris in accordance with Thai law and the law under which he has nationality;

(2) having good behavior;

(3) having regular occupation;

(4) having a domicile in the Thai Kingdom for a consecutive period of not less than five years till the day of filing the application for naturalization;

(5) having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations.

 

It must be noted that Thai citizenship had to be revoked in year past upon becoming a citizen of another country,

It mus also be noted that the above listed requirements can be waived for persons previously having Thai citizenship, however they must apply for naturalization and I believe they need to give up the 'other' nationality.

"The granting or refusal of permission for naturalization as a Thai shall lie with the discretion of the Minister. In case the Minister deems appropriate to grant permission, he shall submit the matter to the King for Royal Sanction. After the Royal Sanction, the applicant shall make an affirmation of loyalty to Thailand."

 

Loyalty to Thailand? Doesn't that mean giving up American citizenship.

 

This is all academic to me at this point as we have no intention of living here forever... just while the travel is comfortable and we are in good health.

 

[ubonjoe]

 

I found what you wrote under section 10 which is the requirement to apply for foreigner to apply for Thai nationality.

 

Quote

Section 10. An alien who possesses the following qualifications may apply for
naturalization as a Thai:
(1) becoming sui juris in accordance with Thai law and the law under which he
has nationality;
(2) having good behavior;
(3) having regular occupation;
(4) having a domicile in the Thai Kingdom for a consecutive period of not less than five
years till the day of filing the application for naturalization;
(5) having knowledge of Thai language as prescribed in the Regulations.

 

[chicowoodduck]

I wish you good luck in your new adventure.....you might be in for some cultural shock for a few years, but that can be expected at any age.....just rock on and enjoy the ride....some folks your age are in a nursing home or worse.....???

[sumrit]

1 hour ago, yooper said:

Just finished going thru the whole mess. I am 71, wife is 67.   We were told by numerous sources including the Thai Embassy in Chicago, US embassy in Bangkok, and a couple of Thai Immigration people that my wife could regain her Thai citizenship but it is not true.

 

yooper, as others have said, there is no difference between Thai nationality and citizenship and your wife will not have lost hers.

 

I took my (now ex) wife to the UK over 23 years ago in 1995 and she obtained British Citizenship three years later, in 1998. She never lost her Thai Nationality. She has renewed her Thai ID card and Thai Passport at the Thai Embassy in London when necessary ever since. (my mates Thai wife renewed her passport at the UK Embassy just two weeks ago)

 

All Thai Embassies around the world provide facilities for a Thai National to renew their ID cards and Passports at the Thai Embassy within the country they reside, they don't even have to return to Thailand. ( there is no Thai Embassy in Chicago, it's a consulate so won't have the same facilities as an Embassy). Just your expired ID card/passport are required.

 

If the ID card/Passport is lost/damaged etc the persons original Tabien Baan (showing the Thai ID number) and official form of photo ID, such as a driving licence is required. 

 

I doubt that the US Embassy in Bangkok  would be able to advise on a Thai National's requirements in obtaining a passport/ID card. And I suspect the 'immigration people' you contacted were possibly agencies who would possibly make the process sound as difficult as possible in order that you use their service because both the terminology and requirements in some other parts of your post are definitely incorrect/inaccurate.

[ubonjoe]

42 minutes ago, yooper said:

It must be noted that Thai citizenship had to be revoked in year past upon becoming a citizen of another country,

That is false info. I can assure you many Thai's have have more than one citizenship. That requirement went away many years ago.

[yooper]

30 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

 

I found what you wrote under section 10 which is the requirement to apply for foreigner to apply for Thai nationality.

 

 

correct.  A Thai who became an american citizen (at least 40 yrs ago) IS technically a foreigner by virtue of their foreign passport, and must re-apply for Thai citizenship.  I thought that was what we were doing  (re-applying) when my wife's name was added to her sisters house registration.  When she was rejected a Thai ID card I wrote to a legal firm for advice and although I thought it was BS at the time, their reply was much the same as what I have outlined above.  If you are qualified to practice Thai law  and disagree that id very notable otherwise your opinion is worth exactly what I paid for it.

 

It should also be noted that anything is possible in Thailand, regardless of law.  There are thousands of folks with dual Thai/foreign passports. If you know of anyone who has recently obtained both a new Thai ID card and passport after showing a foreign passport it would be an interesting story.  I can assure you a new ID wouldn't happen in the Pak Nam District Office in Samut Prakan where we live.  We have been advised (by the immigration folks) that we can report her original ID as lost, then apply to other districts and may be approved there. But based on the legal info I received (from a Thai law firm) and my subsequent research, we have decided we can be happy here with our retirement visas and would rather not chance being in violation of any Thai law.

[BritTim]

On loss of Thai nationality, read and understand Section 13 and Section 14. The intent of those sections for many years has been to assist those acquiring citizenship of countries that do not allow dual citizenship. It allows Thais (who could not otherwise acquire their new citizenship) to voluntarily renounce their Thai citizenship. Although long ago, it was possible for a natural born Thai to lose citizenship involuntarily, it has long been true that Thais must ask to be deprived of Thai citizenship before this can now occur.

 

The OP's wife is Thai, has always been Thai, and would be well advised to get a Thai passport as suggested by others.

[yooper]

7 minutes ago, sumrit said:

yooper, as others have said, there is no difference between Thai nationality and citizenship and your wife will not have lost hers.

 

I took my (now ex) wife to the UK over 23 years ago in 1995 and she obtained British Citizenship three years later, in 1998. She never lost her Thai Nationality. She has renewed her Thai ID card and Thai Passport at the Thai Embassy in London when necessary ever since. (my mates Thai wife renewed her passport at the UK Embassy just two weeks ago)

 

All Thai Embassies around the world provide facilities for a Thai National to renew their ID cards and Passports at the Thai Embassy within the country they reside, they don't even have to return to Thailand. ( there is no Thai Embassy in Chicago, it's a consulate so won't have the same facilities as an Embassy). Just your expired ID card/passport are required.

 

If the ID card/Passport is lost/damaged etc the persons original Tabien Baan (showing the Thai ID number) and official form of photo ID, such as a driving licence is required. 

 

I doubt that the US Embassy in Bangkok  would be able to advise on a Thai National's requirements in obtaining a passport/ID card. And I suspect the 'immigration people' you contacted were possibly agencies who would possibly make the process sound as difficult as possible in order that you use their service because both the terminology and requirements in some other parts of your post are definitely incorrect/inaccurate.

Well, the Thai embassy in Chicago said we can only get a new ID card in Thailand, they do issue passports if you have an ID. We have all the documents you mention and are denied. Thanks for your opinion anyway.

[yooper]

11 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is false info. I can assure you many Thai's have have more than one citizenship. That requirement went away many years ago.

yes, I think in 1992 but that doesn't matter now (to me) unless you are qualified to practice Thai law.

[yooper]

4 minutes ago, BritTim said:

On loss of Thai nationality, read and understand Section 13 and Section 14. The intent of those sections for many years has been to assist those acquiring citizenship of countries that do not allow dual citizenship. It allows Thais (who could not otherwise acquire their new citizenship) to voluntarily renounce their Thai citizenship. Although long ago, it was possible for a natural born Thai to lose citizenship involuntarily, it has long been true that Thais must ask to be deprived of Thai citizenship before this can now occur.

 

The OP's wife is Thai, has always been Thai, and would be well advised to get a Thai passport as suggested by others.

I'd hope you  will ague your opinion at the Pak Nam District office and straighten them out.