Israel criticises bill banning statements implicating Poland in Holocaust

rooster59 · January 27, 2018

Israel criticises bill banning statements implicating Poland in Holocaust

By Ari Rabinovitch and Marcin Goettig

Ambassador of Israel to Poland Anna Azari speaks at a commemoration event in the so-called "Sauna" building at the former Nazi German concentration and extermination camp Auschwitz II-Birkenau, during the ceremonies marking the 73rd anniversary of the liberation of the camp and International Holocaust Victims Remembrance Day, near Oswiecim, Poland, January 27, 2018. REUTERS/Kacper Pempel

JERUSALEM/WARSAW (Reuters) - Israel called on Poland on Saturday to amend a bill approved this week by Polish lawmakers that would make it illegal to suggest Poland bore any responsibility for crimes against humanity committed by Nazi Germany on its soil.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said he instructed his ambassador to meet Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki to express opposition to the bill, which would make using phrases like "Polish death camps" punishable by up to three years in prison.

"The law is baseless, I strongly oppose it. One cannot change history and the Holocaust cannot be denied," Netanyahu said, in comments mirrored by other senior Israeli officials.

Poland's Deputy Justice Minister Patryk Jaki, who authored the bill, said on Twitter it was not directed against Israel.

"Important Israeli politicians and media are attacking us for the bill ... On top of that they claim that Poles are 'co-responsible' for the Holocaust," he said, adding that "this is proof how necessary this bill is."

The Polish government said the bill did not aim to limit freedom to research or discuss the Holocaust, or to restrict freedom of artistic activity related to the issue.

Poles have fought for years against the use of phrases like "Polish death camps", which suggest the Polish state was at least partly responsible for the camps where millions of people, mostly Jews, were killed by Nazi Germany. The camps were built and operated by the Nazis after they invaded Poland in 1939.

The Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem said it opposed the bill, even though it said Poland was justified in objecting to the term "Polish death camps" which it called a misrepresentation.

"Restrictions on statements by scholars and others regarding the Polish people's direct or indirect complicity with the crimes committed on their land during the Holocaust are a serious distortion," it said.

The Polish government did not surrender to Nazi Germany and its government did not collaborate with the Nazis.

Polish government spokeswoman Joanna Kopcinska wrote on Twitter that the legislation aimed "to show the truth about the terrible crimes committed on Poles, Jews, and other nations that were in the 20th century victims of brutal totalitarian regimes - German Nazi regime and Soviet communism."

ezzra · January 28, 2018

1 hour ago, rooster59 said:

Poland was justified in objecting to the term "Polish death camps" which it called a misrepresentation

No matter how many laws the Polish parliament will Enact to white wash and hide the shame of the collaborations of the Polish nation with the Nazis, the facts are clear and there're plenty of evidences to support that several concentration camps were build on Polish land, and countless poles were actively engaged in colluding and abiding the Germans in betraying of their Jewish neighbors, sizing their properties and herding them into the

trains that ultimately took them to the gas chambers.

wwest5829 · January 28, 2018

"The Summer That Bled" remains firmly in my mind during my history study... Many nations were complicit in the Holocaust. Not the least of which were the allied countries who had knowledge of this previous to the U.S. entering WW II (I include the U.S. here).

Edited January 28, 2018 by wwest5829

Marknreston · January 28, 2018

33 minutes ago, wwest5829 said:

"The Summer That Bled" remains firmly in my mind during my history study... Many nations were complicit in the Holocaust. Not the least of which were the allied countries who had knowledge of this previous to the U.S. entering WW II (I include the U.S. here).

Stating that the allies were “not the least complicit” is one of the most idiotic and revisionist statements I have read on this blog. While there was certainly evidence of concentration camps throughout German held countries, the-extent of the barbaric atrocities being conducted at these camps was indeed not realized until allied forces opened the gates. Read your history and pay close attention to the timelines before making such inflammatory statements. What would you have had the Allies do??? Even had they known what was going on, which they did not Blanket bombing these camps would have killed thousands. and diverting critical resources would probably extended the war additional months. There were hundred of these camps, big and small. What would have been your strategy for these camps. While many European governments were not only complicit (Hungary and France to name 2) but actively involved in “The Final Solution”, the Allies were far from complicit. Read your history carefully (not just one book) and think again before making such a link between Nazi atrocities and the Allies.

Jingthing · January 28, 2018

Poland has the choice to indulge in their self serving revisionist history, but they're not fooling people outside of Poland.

metisdead · January 28, 2018

A conspiracy troll post has been removed.

wwest5829 · January 28, 2018

2 hours ago, Marknreston said:

Stating that the allies were “not the least complicit” is one of the most idiotic and revisionist statements I have read on this blog. While there was certainly evidence of concentration camps throughout German held countries, the-extent of the barbaric atrocities being conducted at these camps was indeed not realized until allied forces opened the gates. Read your history and pay close attention to the timelines before making such inflammatory statements. What would you have had the Allies do??? Even had they known what was going on, which they did not Blanket bombing these camps would have killed thousands. and diverting critical resources would probably extended the war additional months. There were hundred of these camps, big and small. What would have been your strategy for these camps. While many European governments were not only complicit (Hungary and France to name 2) but actively involved in “The Final Solution”, the Allies were far from complicit. Read your history carefully (not just one book) and think again before making such a link between Nazi atrocities and the Allies.

Feel free to take it up with historians. My post simply pointed out that the Allies did little or nothing to condemn what they had already had evidence of before the U.S. entered WW II after the bombing at Pearl Harbor. I note in previous comments that you condemn the Catholic Church for its complicity in sexual abuse. I would point out that the church was also complicit in what I addressed. As a footnote, I cannot see a posted profile for you so I do not know of your background. I hold a Master of Arts + in history. You?

“And the United States had done little about Hitler's policies of persecution. Indeed, it had joined England and France in appeasing Hitler throughout the thirties. Roosevelt and his Secretary of State, Cordell Hull, were hesitant to criticize publicly Hitler's anti-Semitic policies; when a resolution was introduced in the Senate in January 1934 asking the Senate and the President to express "surprise and pain" at what the Germans were doing to the Jews, and to ask restoration of Jewish rights, the State Department "caused this resolution to be buried in committee," according to Arnold Offher (American Appeasement).”

Excerpt From: “A People's History of the United States - Zinn, Howard.pdf

punchjudy · January 28, 2018

victimhood

NOUN

mass noun

The state of being a victim.

Bluespunk · January 28, 2018

8 hours ago, ezzra said:

No matter how many laws the Polish parliament will Enact to white wash and hide the shame of the collaborations of the Polish nation with the Nazis, the facts are clear and there're plenty of evidences to support that several concentration camps were build on Polish land, and countless poles were actively engaged in colluding and abiding the Germans in betraying of their Jewish neighbors, sizing their properties and herding them into the

trains that ultimately took them to the gas chambers.

It began long before the invasion.

The govt in Poland had been enacting anti-semitic laws prior to the start of WWII.

Jingthing · January 28, 2018

26 minutes ago, punchjudy said:

victimhood

NOUN

mass noun

The state of being a victim.

That's the beauty thing about the Jewish state of Israel, even with it's over publicized faults. The Jewish people (both secular and observant) via the political ideology of Zionism collectively decided ENOUGH ALREADY with being victims of genocide, pogroms, oppressive restrictions of all kinds, expulsions, etc. that have been suffered for thousands of years as a minority people in the DIASPORA.

The Israeli government is 100 percent correct in objecting to the Polish attempts at revisionist history but of course at the end of the day, these decisions are up to the sovereign nation of Poland.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Jingthing

Harveyg · January 28, 2018

9 hours ago, ezzra said:

No matter how many laws the Polish parliament will Enact to white wash and hide the shame of the collaborations of the Polish nation with the Nazis, the facts are clear and there're plenty of evidences to support that several concentration camps were build on Polish land, and countless poles were actively engaged in colluding and abiding the Germans in betraying of their Jewish neighbors, sizing their properties and herding them into the

trains that ultimately took them to the gas chambers.

And the documented cases of

POST-war Polish killings of Jews when the survivors came back to their towns. There were poles who helped Jews to hide, (in some cases promised financial reward if survived) but the above should be acknowledged.

I might mention I was in a small polish town in 2004 where an anti Semitic slur complete with Star was scrawled on a buildnear the train station. It was there 2 years later. Who would object? The dead residents?

metisdead · January 28, 2018

A post commenting on moderation has been removed.

Rimmer · January 28, 2018

Multiple off topic posts about Palestine rockets and Iran have been removed, topic is about:

Israel criticises bill banning statements implicating Poland in Holocaust

Orton Rd · January 28, 2018

All countries the Nazi's invaded collaborated, the French resistance was actually very insignificant, Norway almost zero, they even handed over UK paratroopers to be shot. This Holocaust is a word only used since about 1972, before that it did not exist in connection with what the Nazi's did to the Jews. It's unfortunate that the numbers have been such a source of controversy. After the war the Poles said 300k Jews had died in Auschwitz, the Russians said it was 4 million! The truth is nobody actually knows.

Orton Rd · January 28, 2018

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Poland has the choice to indulge in their self serving revisionist history, but they're not fooling people outside of Poland.

There should be no problem revising history if it based on the truth, in archives of orders, letters, memoirs and official records. But any effort to deviate from the accepted history of the Jews before and after the war is always attacked ruthlessly, often without foundation.

Bluespunk · January 28, 2018

23 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

There should be no problem revising history if it based on the truth, in archives of orders, letters, memoirs and official records. But any effort to deviate from the accepted history of the Jews before and after the war is always attacked ruthlessly, often without foundation.

That would be because many of those ''deviating'' are revisionist, holocaust denying, right wing, anti Semitic, bigots

Jingthing · January 28, 2018

Some background on this. Yes, the historical reality is embarrassing to Poland and it should be and it's sadly understandable that they want to aggressively suppress this. Basically, historically, Polish antisemitism makes German antisemitism seem amateur.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2015/11/19/jedwabne-even-worse-we-thought/

Morch · January 28, 2018

1 hour ago, Orton Rd said:

All countries the Nazi's invaded collaborated, the French resistance was actually very insignificant, Norway almost zero, they even handed over UK paratroopers to be shot. This Holocaust is a word only used since about 1972, before that it did not exist in connection with what the Nazi's did to the Jews. It's unfortunate that the numbers have been such a source of controversy. After the war the Poles said 300k Jews had died in Auschwitz, the Russians said it was 4 million! The truth is nobody actually knows.

This Holocaust is a word only used since about 1972, before that it did not exist in connection with what the Nazi's did to the Jews.

Wrong. The first such use was as early as the 1940, and unless mistaken, in the UK press. Makes it hard to take your comment in favor of "fact based" historic revisionism seriously.

sanemax · January 28, 2018

1 hour ago, Bluespunk said:

That would be because many of those ''deviating'' are revisionist, holocaust denying, right wing, anti Semitic, bigots

There are also many Left-wing holocaust denying anti-semetic bigots.

Its mainly just the far right who are anti semites

PremiumLane · January 28, 2018

12 hours ago, ezzra said:

No matter how many laws the Polish parliament will Enact to white wash and hide the shame of the collaborations of the Polish nation with the Nazis, the facts are clear and there're plenty of evidences to support that several concentration camps were build on Polish land, and countless poles were actively engaged in colluding and abiding the Germans in betraying of their Jewish neighbors, sizing their properties and herding them into the

trains that ultimately took them to the gas chambers.

Poland as a nation was not implicit in the planning or operation of the final solution. Some Polish people might have collaborated, but that does not mean Poland did. Saying otherwise is a huge smear on the thousands of Poles who fought against the Nazis, both in Allied countries armies and as part of a big resistance movement.

Jews also herded Jews on to the trains, are you saying the Jewish nation is also responsible for the final solution?

You really need to read history more

PremiumLane · January 28, 2018

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

There are also many Left-wing holocaust denying anti-semetic bigots.

Its mainly just the far right who are anti semites

I think you will find that holocaust denial came from and is a problem on the right wing. Left wing deniers are few and far between and very much on the fringe.

Bluespunk · January 28, 2018

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

There are also many Left-wing holocaust denying anti-semetic bigots.

Its mainly just the far right who are anti semites

While I agree that the irrational hate purveys people of all political views, most holocaust deniers I have heard of are right wing, fellow travelers, but I will take your word that they exist on the left as well...

Morch · January 28, 2018

10 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

While I agree that the irrational hate purveys people of all political views, most holocaust deniers I have heard of are right wing, fellow travelers, but I will take your word that they exist on the left as well...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Rassinier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Guillaume

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Thion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Guionnet

Marknreston · January 28, 2018

6 hours ago, wwest5829 said:

Feel free to take it up with historians. My post simply pointed out that the Allies did little or nothing to condemn what they had already had evidence of before the U.S. entered WW II after the bombing at Pearl Harbor. I note in previous comments that you condemn the Catholic Church for its complicity in sexual abuse. I would point out that the church was also complicit in what I addressed. As a footnote, I cannot see a posted profile for you so I do not know of your background. I hold a Master of Arts + in history. You?

“And the United States had done little about Hitler's policies of persecution. Indeed, it had joined England and France in appeasing Hitler throughout the thirties. Roosevelt and his Secretary of State, Cordell Hull, were hesitant to criticize publicly Hitler's anti-Semitic policies; when a resolution was introduced in the Senate in January 1934 asking the Senate and the President to express "surprise and pain" at what the Germans were doing to the Jews, and to ask restoration of Jewish rights, the State Department "caused this resolution to be buried in committee," according to Arnold Offher (American Appeasement).”

Excerpt From: “A People's History of the United States - Zinn, Howard.pdf

Being slow to condemn the anti Semitic policies of Hitler of the 30s is a far far cry from saying the Allies were complicit in the Hocaust. Remember, Hitler was democratically elected. I ask you again, what is it you would have had the Allies do either in the thirties or even after it was discovered there was such a plethora of camps? You have yet to answer. I have no need to take it up with the historians because I have yet to see any consensus among historians who make such an outlandish claim of complicity. While the Allies did have aerial photos of some of these camps you are yet to tell me how they were complicit. Complicity is defined as playing an active role in the planning and execution of an illegal activity.

congratulations on your Masters. If it matters, I hold a Masters Degree in Public Policy. I served 22 years as a fighter pilot in the USAF and graduated from the USAF Top Gun equivalent program. I also attended the USMC Command & Staff College at Quantico I have visited Auschwitz and studied how this camp was established and expanded. But I ask again. What is it you would have had the Allies do differently relative to the holacaust. At any point along the time continuum from Hitlers election to the end of the war. This is what your original statement accusing the Allies of being complicit in the Holocaust was all about.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Marknreston
Correctness

Bluespunk · January 28, 2018

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Rassinier

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Guillaume

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serge_Thion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Guionnet

As I said, most I’ve heard of are right wing. Never heard of these before.

Should have remembered that French pre and post WWII politics were riven with anti Semitic hate though.

Morch · January 28, 2018

16 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

As I said, most I’ve heard of are right wing. Never heard of these before.

Should have remembered that French pre and post WWII politics were riven with anti Semitic hate though.

It's hardly just a French thing.

Bluespunk · January 28, 2018

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

It's hardly just a French thing.

I didn’t say it was.

But as all your links were to French bigots, I commented on French politics.

Let me repeat, I accept bigots exist across the political spectrum.

Furthermore, let me state: I have nothing but the utmost contempt for any filth who indulge in holocaust denial.

I don’t care what political creed they claim to represent, those who deny the holocaust are nothing but the lowest form of scum.

Edited January 28, 2018 by Bluespunk

wwest5829 · January 28, 2018

1 hour ago, Marknreston said:

Being slow to condemn the anti Semitic policies of Hitler of the 30s is a far far cry from saying the Allies were complicit in the Hocaust. Remember, Hitler was democratically elected. I ask you again, what is it you would have had the Allies do either in the thirties or even after it was discovered there was such a plethora of camps? You have yet to answer. I have no need to take it up with the historians because I have yet to see any consensus among historians who make such an outlandish claim of complicity. While the Allies did have aerial photos of some of these camps you are yet to tell me how they were complicit. Complicity is defined as playing an active role in the planning and execution of an illegal activity.

congratulations on your Masters. If it matters, I hold a Masters Degree in Public Policy. I served 22 years as a fighter pilot in the USAF and graduated from the USAF Top Gun equivalent program. I also attended the USMC Command & Staff College at Quantico I have visited Auschwitz and studied how this camp was established and expanded. But I ask again. What is it you would have had the Allies do differently relative to the holacaust. At any point along the time continuum from Hitlers election to the end of the war. This is what your original statement accusing the Allies of being complicit in the Holocaust was all about.

"when a resolution was introduced in the Senate in January 1934 asking the Senate and the President to express "surprise and pain" at what the Germans were doing to the Jews, and to ask restoration of Jewish rights, the State Department "caused this resolution to be buried in committee," according to Arnold Offher (American Appeasement).” I do not take it as my responsibility to plan policy further than that this presented action could have been taken and was not taken, thus the complicitness, same as your condemnation (rightly IMHO) of the Catholic Church inaction on this and other matters that you cite in another post..

Andaman Al · January 28, 2018

11 hours ago, Marknreston said:

Read your history

And which author are we ~~supposed~~ allowed to choose?

Andaman Al · January 28, 2018

2 hours ago, Marknreston said:

congratulations on your Masters. If it matters, I hold a Masters Degree in Public Policy. I served 22 years as a fighter pilot in the USAF and graduated from the USAF Top Gun equivalent program. I also attended the USMC Command & Staff College at Quantico I have visited Auschwitz and studied how this camp was established and expanded.

No it doesn't matter. What mattered in the context of the discussion is that wwest5829 has a Masters in History - that was the pertinent point. Your claims are like stating to a Masters in Quantum Engineering on a discussion of Quantum Gravity effects that you have a Masters in Chemistry. Close but no cigar.

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Israel criticises bill banning statements implicating Poland in Holocaust

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