When Farangs Go Native

[Peterw42]

Surprisingly, a thread about farangs going native and no discussion about bum guns.

[mikiea]

12 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Who is posing? Kirsty, Nate, or anyone else in the photo? 

 

It's sad but many newcomers, especially older 50+ years old guys seem to resent the fact that I work as a translator, and have learned to speak  the language fluently.  Hardly going native but wai people at the appropriate times, go to the temple occasionally and do the appropriate things, although not a Buddhist. I even wai certain statues, Erewan, Ganesh etc, am I a poser with lost direction - lol ? Btw, I've lived here for over 25 years. 

yea ... that and 25 baht will get you some noodles . i love it when some people double down to make themselves feel better  , i hope you do it often . it suits you . 

[MrPatrickThai]

2 minutes ago, mikiea said:

yea ... that and 25 baht will get you some noodles . i love it when some people double down to make themselves feel better  , i hope you do it often . it suits you . 

What are you on about. What has 25 baht noodles got to do with anything?

[MrPatrickThai]

37 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Surprisingly, a thread about farangs going native and no discussion about bum guns.

Because after 2 weeks every realizes it is the easiest, most hygienic way.

[Beats56]

15 hours ago, Neeranam said:

You were replying about what to do when a cashier wais you. You said you say "sawadee 

 

15 hours ago, Neeranam said:

You were replying about what to do when a cashier wais you. You said you say "sawadee cup".

No I was talking about family and friends. Anyway tell me what wrong with saying hello to people. It just common manners.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Beats56
Double post

[dick dasterdly]

16 hours ago, Zooheekock said:

If you have hearing loss then obviously you will have difficulty learning any foreign language, not just a tonal one; the range of frequencies over which Thai speech ranges is perfectly normal so it's not as if the loss of hearing at higher frequencies which older people typically experience is going to be bad for learners of Thai but of no consequence for learners of French.

And it's just not true that older people can't learn foreign languages. If you're 70, not suffering from some kind of disability or condition which is obviously going to cause problems, and you put the effort in, you can learn Thai.

I disagree to a certain extent.

 

If (like me ) you're tone deaf - it is more than difficult to make our mangled/'flat' tone understandable...

 

Plus, some people are naturally good at languages, and automatically assume everyone else isn't trying....

 

My foreign mother lived 25 years (from the young age of around 19) in my home country, and was still immediately identifiable as a foreigner - whereas other people in similar circumstances had an aptitude for languages and sounded 'native'.

 

Please try to remember that we're all good (or bad...) at different things.

Edited February 2, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

15 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Because after 2 weeks every realizes it is the easiest, most hygienic way.

True, but toilet paper (or an alternative) is still required to dry the areas cleaned by the 'bum gun' - unless you want wet pants/knickers!

[Zooheekock]

Are you actually tone deaf? That means that you're unable to distinguish musical notes. Some people are but it's pretty rare. If you are genuinely tone deaf, then, yes, you will  have problems learning Thai but almost everyone who says this just hasn't put in the work. Learning a new language is a tedious process and learning Thai is more tedious than learning most languages but (to a rough approximation), it's something anyone can do.

 

Plus, some people are naturally good at languages, and automatically assume everyone else isn't trying....

I was terrible at languages at school. French was easily my worst subject. I now work as a translator. It's just a matter of putting in the hours.

 

My foreign mother lived 25 years (from the young age of around 19) in my home country, and was still immediately identifiable as a foreigner - whereas other people in similar circumstances had an aptitude for languages and sounded 'native'.

If you start learning a foreign language at 19, it's extremely unlikely that you will acquire native-like pronunciation. That, however, does not mean you cannot achieve total fluency. Having a foreign accent is entirely compatible with achieving near-native/C2 level ability.

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, Zooheekock said:

Are you actually tone deaf? That means that you're unable to distinguish musical notes. Some people are but it's pretty rare. If you are genuinely tone deaf, then, yes, you will  have problems learning Thai but almost everyone who says this just hasn't put in the work. Learning a new language is a tedious process and learning Thai is more tedious than learning most languages but (to a rough approximation), it's something anyone can do.

 

 

I was terrible at languages at school. French was easily my worst subject. I now work as a translator. It's just a matter of putting in the hours.

 

 

If you start learning a foreign language at 19, it's extremely unlikely that you will acquire native-like pronunciation. That, however, does not mean you cannot achieve total fluency. Having a foreign accent is entirely compatible with achieving near-native/C2 level ability.

Be very thankful that you've never heard me sing !

 

And I repeat -  "Please try to remember that we're all good (or bad...) at different things.".

 

Edit - but this is off-topic.

Edited February 2, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[billd766]

14 minutes ago, Zooheekock said:

Are you actually tone deaf? That means that you're unable to distinguish musical notes. Some people are but it's pretty rare. If you are genuinely tone deaf, then, yes, you will  have problems learning Thai but almost everyone who says this just hasn't put in the work. Learning a new language is a tedious process and learning Thai is more tedious than learning most languages but (to a rough approximation), it's something anyone can do.

 

 

I was terrible at languages at school. French was easily my worst subject. I now work as a translator. It's just a matter of putting in the hours.

 

 

If you start learning a foreign language at 19, it's extremely unlikely that you will acquire native-like pronunciation. That, however, does not mean you cannot achieve total fluency. Having a foreign accent is entirely compatible with achieving near-native/C2 level ability.

 

Actually being tone deaf is more the inability to hear higher and/or lower frequencies.

 

I have about 50% hearing in my right ear, 60% in the left and tone deaf due to working on jet aircraft in the 1960s with no proper ear defenders.

 

I started to learn Thai back in the middle 1990s when I was 50 and no matter how I tried whenever I spoke Thai I could not get the tones correct. I still cannot at 73.

 

When I try to speak Thai to my family or close friends what I think I said they hear differently. At home I only speak English and as mt 13 year old son is in a an ELP at school it is good for him. He can now listen to what I say and translate to Thais for me.

 

His Mum speaks reasonable English but has trouble with technical or medical English as does my son but he is improving but my wife is static.

Edited February 2, 2018 by billd766

[Zooheekock]

Obviously some people will have genuine reasons for not being able to learn Thai. If you have hearing problems or are dyslexic or have any one of dozens of other conditions, nobody is going to expect you to make strides self-studying a foreign language. However, for the vast majority of immigrants who live in Thailand permanently and who have done nothing more than learn a handful of words, that's not the case.

[dick dasterdly]

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I have about 50% hearing in my right ear, 60% in the left and tone deaf due to working on jet aircraft in the 1960s with no proper ear defenders.

 

I started to learn Thai back in the middle 1990s when I was 50 and no matter how I tried whenever I spoke Thai I could not get the tones correct. I still cannot at 73.

 

When I try to speak Thai to my family or close friends what I think I said they hear differently. At home I only speak English and as mt 13 year old son is in a an ELP at school it is good for him. He can now listen to what I say and translate to Thais for me.

 

His Mum speaks reasonable English but has trouble with technical or medical English as does my son but he is improving but my wife is static.

"whenever I spoke Thai I could not get the tones correct"

 

Know what you mean .

 

Even worse, I employed a Thai language teacher to teach me Thai when I first moved here and, he even taped our lessons so that I could repeatedly listen to the tonal differences.  It didn't work, as I still could barely hear the tonal difference - and certainly couldn't repeat the tiny differences I heard  .

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, Zooheekock said:

Obviously some people will have genuine reasons for not being able to learn Thai. If you have hearing problems or are dyslexic or have any one of dozens of other conditions, nobody is going to expect you to make strides self-studying a foreign language. However, for the vast majority of immigrants who live in Thailand permanently and who have done nothing more than learn a handful of words, that's not the case.

I think you're missing the point that the Thai language is tonal, something completely 'foreign' to Westerners.

 

So even the limited amount of Thai I do know, is largely incomprehensible to Thais - unless they know me and my 'flat' tone. 

 

Even the few westerners I know that 'speak Thai' pretty well - frequently have problems being understood.

[Zooheekock]

There's nothing mysterious about tones - for almost everybody, it's just a matter of practice and putting in the hours.

Unfortunately, a great many people (certainly the overwhelming majority of British people) have terrible experiences at school learning a modern foreign language. After several years of 'study', most British schoolchildren struggle to express the simplest of ideas in French (or German, or whatever) and because of this become convinced that they're just somebody who can't learn languages. This is entirely understandable - especially when they are likely to know somebody who sailed through those classes without apparently breaking a sweat - but equally, entirely wrong. The fact is that, whilst some people do learn languages quicker than others, it's something which is well within the reach of almost all of us.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Zooheekock

[The manic]

On 01/02/2018 at 7:30 AM, MrPatrickThai said:

Who is posing? Kirsty, Nate, or anyone else in the photo? 

 

It's sad but many newcomers, especially older 50+ years old guys seem to resent the fact that I work as a translator, and have learned to speak  the language fluently.  Hardly going native but wai people at the appropriate times, go to the temple occasionally and do the appropriate things, although not a Buddhist. I even wai certain statues, Erewan, Ganesh etc, am I a poser with lost direction - lol ? Btw, I've lived here for over 25 years. 

Yes you've gone native.

[DrTuner]

18 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Surprisingly, a thread about farangs going native and no discussion about bum guns.

Native way is to use your hand. Bum guns are a superior farang invention. 

[Jools]

The best advice I ever got on the "wai" was from a former girlfriend.  "You're a farang....you don't need to wai ANYONE."

Sounds legit.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, Jools said:

The best advice I ever got on the "wai" was from a former girlfriend.  "You're a farang....you don't need to wai ANYONE."

Sounds legit.

As long as your ATM card is functioning anyway. 

[MaeJoMTB]

20 hours ago, Zooheekock said:

And it's just not true that older people can't learn foreign languages. If you're 70, not suffering from some kind of disability or condition which is obviously going to cause problems, and you put the effort in, you can learn Thai.

I don't bother with Thai because it's a worthless language I don't need.

My wife and children all speak perfectly good English, I have no real interest in speaking with other Thais (beyond simple commerce).

And if I were to improve my language skills it would probably be Spanish, Urdu or Mandarin.

 

Thai is my wife's 3rd language (Laos and Lanna being her first two).

I suspect few posters have married Bangkok girls.

[Zooheekock]

I suspect few posters have married Bangkok girls.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I married a woman, and she does indeed come from Bangkok.

I have no real interest in speaking with other Thais

Having read some of your other posts, I suspect this is to everyone's benefit.

[wildewillie89]

I was under the impression research had got to the point where it can be predicted who will do well in a second language and who will not just from an MRI. As genes and brain structure is important. 

Either way, I believe language has no bearing on understanding specific cultural traits unless that language is used to discuss these traits with experts in the field (papers can be translated anyway). There are clearly many interpretations of how people should behave and I don't think saying "I have lived here for years and can speak Thai" is much of an answer that warrants respect. If we are talking cringing at the fact a farang wai the cashier, then provide the paper from a credible source (not blog), that states that it is so wrong for a farang to do this a change in emotion is warranted from a complete stranger.

My colleagues and wife are not experts in the field, however, they have absolutely no issues with a farang interacting with a cashier like that and are of the belief it probably borders along being irrational to let your day be disturbed by a wai. Imagine if the farang gave a lecture to an average Thai person standing next to them about that farang who did the wai, that is when people have probably started to go a bit too far. Old traits may exist (provide the paper), however, society has probably also moved forward a little bit with the likes of globalisation. *My wife did receive the second highest score in high school for Thai language and represents the country at ASEAN conferences due to her language abilities - so she isn't a school drop out as many people on this forum like to assume to give reasoning as to why someone may disagree with them. 

Edited February 2, 2018 by wildewillie89

[newatthis]

^^

And why does a simple "Khwap Kuhn" / "Thank you" to a cashier cause such bewilderment on the face of Thai customers?

[Neeranam]

On 02/02/2018 at 4:18 PM, MaeJoMTB said:

I suspect few posters have married Bangkok girls.

Really, why?

[MaeJoMTB]

23 hours ago, Zooheekock said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I married a woman, and she does indeed come from Bangkok.

Makes more money that you, wealthy family, high-so, educated, white skinned ........... etc.

Makes me ashamed to admit mine is a dirt poor, dark skinned, Laos speaking unemployed rice farmer, who left school aged 12.

 

I just can't compete with you guys!

Edited February 3, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 6:55 PM, kokesaat said:

I learned Thai during my 5 year denial period of needing hearing aids.  I don't buy the argument that you can't learn the language because you're old or your hearing isn't up to par.  I do buy the argument that you can't learn Thai because you haven't found the right teacher or you don't have the motivation.....or both.

 

I was responding to

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:56 PM, Zooheekock said:

If you live in Thailand, learn to speak Thai. Unless you have some kind of learning difficulty, it's really not very difficult.

If one has a hearing problem it makes it harder. I didn't say it made it impossible.

[Zooheekock]

27 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Makes more money that you, wealthy family, high-so, educated, white skinned ........... etc.

Most of that, yes.

 

27 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Makes me ashamed to admit mine is a dirt poor, dark skinned, Laos speaking unemployed rice farmer, who left school aged 12.

People overwhelmingly marry within the same social class. It's interesting but not completely shocking that this holds inter-culturally as well as intra-culturally.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Zooheekock

[sanemax]

7 hours ago, newatthis said:

^^

And why does a simple "Khwap Kuhn" / "Thank you" to a cashier cause such bewilderment on the face of Thai customers?

It doesnt .

[Jonnapat]

Happy for her?????

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 7:09 PM, MrPatrickThai said:

Can I ask how many years you've been trying to learn Thai? I have a qualification in linguistics and interested in this. How many hours a day do you put aside for learning? Do you try to learn a certain amount of new vocabulary each week or day? I know old people in their 50's/60's who have become fluent in 6 months by going to intensive classes. I know one guy 60's who has lived in a village in the middle of nowhere for 20 years and honestly has never had a conversation with any of his neighbours. 

Hmmmm.

I learned all the Thai I need 20 years ago.

I live in an area where the locals that I interact with speak English.

I lived in a village for a few months and never felt any desire to participate in conversations with them. I did go to help a few Thai kids that wanted to learn English, but on the whole, no Thais I've met have exhibited any demonstrable desire to have conversations with me, and even the English teacher that couldn't speak English properly didn't want to come and practice with me.

 

Even when I lived in an English speaking country, few people were interested in the same things as I and those were my friends.

If someone wants to learn Thai so he can ask about what they had to eat last night go ahead. I don't think there are many conversations about philosophy or world politics in the village.

In the end, down to the individual as to what is important to them to spend time on.

To many of us the return on the investment isn't worth the time needed.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 7:09 PM, MrPatrickThai said:

 How many hours a day do you put aside for learning? Do you try to learn a certain amount of new vocabulary each week or day? 

I learned by having a live in Thai GF when I was in LOS, and using those taped lessons when I wasn't. I had to take a half hour bus ride to work, and I'd use my Walkman during the journey. Years of half hours adds up to quite a lot.

Most important words I learned were

where is the toilet?

excuse me and thank you

numbers

the food I liked to order in restaurants

good and bad

hot and cold

top it up ( putting fuel in the vehicle )

to the end ( on buses )

do you like?

you are beautiful

do you want

I don't want

and a few words I'm not going to put on here.

 

I know a lot more than that of course, but IMO that's enough to get by when they don't speak English.