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Polish lawmakers back draft Holocaust law, U.S. voices concern

 

FILE PHOTO - Parliament session in Warsaw, Poland December 8, 2017. Polish lawmakers approved an overhaul of the judiciary, giving parliament de facto control over the selection of judges in defiance of the European Union. Agencja Gazeta/Slawomir Kaminski via REUTERS

 

WARSAW/WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Polish lawmakers approved draft legislation on Thursday penalising suggestions of any complicity by Poland in the Nazi Holocaust on its soil during World War Two, defying criticism by Israel and the United States.

 

The proposal has triggered a diplomatic spat between Israel and Warsaw's conservative government since its initial approval in the lower house of parliament last week, with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu comparing it to an effort to change history.

 

The U.S. State Department urged Poland on Wednesday to re-evaluate the draft law, expressing concern about consequences on Warsaw's relations with the United States and Israel if the draft becomes law.

 

Under the proposed legislation, violators would face three years in prison for a mention of "Polish death camps", although scientific research into World War Two would not be constrained.

 

Poland has fought against the use of the phrase in some Western media for years, arguing it suggested the Polish state was at least partly responsible for the camps, where millions of people, mostly Jews, were killed by Nazi Germany.

 

The camps were built and operated by the Nazis after the 1939 invasion of Poland, home to Europe's largest Jewish community at the time.

 

"We have to send a clear signal to the world that we won't allow for Poland to continue being insulted," Patryk Jaki, a deputy justice minister, told reporters in parliament.

 

The Senate voted on the draft bill in the early hours on Thursday and it will now be sent to President Andrzej Duda for a final signature.

 

Poland's PAP news agency reported 57 senators voted for the draft bill, with 23 against and two abstentions.

 

The Polish government has said the legislation aims to stop the Polish people or state being blamed for Nazi crimes.

 

The United States said, however, the legislation "could undermine free speech and academic discourse. We all must be careful not to inhibit discussion and commentary on the Holocaust".

 

"We believe open debate, scholarship, and education are the best means of countering inaccurate and hurtful speech," State Department spokeswoman Heather Nauert said in a statement.

 

"We are also concerned about the repercussions this draft legislation, if enacted, could have on Poland’s strategic interests and relationships ... We encourage Poland to re-evaluate the legislation," Nauert said.

 

PAINFUL DEBATE

 

Poland has gone through a painful public debate in recent years about guilt and reconciliation over the Holocaust.

 

Research showing some Poles had participated in the Nazi German atrocities shook the belief of many that the nation was only a victim of World War Two and had conducted itself honourably. Many still refuse to accept the findings.

 

Poland was home to some 3.2 million Jews before the war. Germany attacked and occupied Poland in 1939 and later built death camps, including Auschwitz and Treblinka, on Polish soil. Most of the Jews who lived in Poland were killed by the Nazi occupiers.

 

According to figures from the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, the Germans also killed at least 1.9 million non-Jewish Polish civilians during World War Two.

 

The ruling Law and Justice (PiS) party, a socially conservative grouping with a nationalist agenda, has reignited debate on the issue as part of a campaign to fuel patriotism since sweeping into power in 2015.

 

"We, the Poles, were victims, as were the Jews," former PiS prime minister Beata Szydlo said on Wednesday. "It is a duty of every Pole to defend the good name of Poland. Just as the Jews, we were victims."

 

The Israeli Foreign Ministry summoned Poland's charge d'affaires on Sunday to object to the bill.

 

(Reporting by Justyna Pawlak in WARSAW and Mohammad Zargham in WASHINGTON; Editing by G Crosse and Paul Tait)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-02-01

[keith101]

The 1939 pact between Russia and Germany is at fault here not Poland .

[ezzra]

We didn't do it ok? see? we even got a law now that says so.....

[DoctorG]

Yet we see so little on the Vichy Government's collusion in the Holocaust.

[stevenl]

Why is the US objecting to this law, just to help their friend Israel?

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Why is the US objecting to this law, just to help their friend Israel?

Irrelevant.

Do you favor the law?

I don't.

I think it's horrible.

Poles should face their long dark history of toxic antisemitism TRUTHFULLY. 

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, DoctorG said:

Yet we see so little on the Vichy Government's collusion in the Holocaust.

I don't agree with you. I think the history of French complicity in the holocaust is well documented and I'm not aware of a current French legal effort to sweep it under the carpet. The topic here is about POLAND. So obviously, France wouldn't be big in such a discussion. 

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Irrelevant.

Do you favor the law?

I don't.

I think it's horrible.

Poles should face their long dark history of toxic antisemitism TRUTHFULLY. 

No, not irrelevant.

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, stevenl said:

No, not irrelevant.

Interesting that you are insinuating that you may support the neo-fascist Polish historical repression law because you dislike Israel and dislike American support for Israel. If my reading is correct, that's really an awful and immoral reason.

 

Different things are different things. For example, I think trump is an American white nationalist right wing "populist" and he shares a lot of his ideology with the current Polish government and other neo-fascist politicians in Europe. But on this issue, objecting to this horrible new law in Poland, the U.S. objections are correct, regardless of any cynical assumptions about the motivations. 

 

So that's why I asked you if you like this fascist Polish law which you are free to not answer of course, or does open disdain for Israel just overrule everything else? 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Jingthing

[stevenl]

I am not insinuating anything.

 

I am asking why the US is objecting to this law. I think it is to help Israel, but there may be other reasons.

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I am not insinuating anything.

 

I am asking why the US is objecting to this law. I think it is to help Israel, but there may be other reasons.

Poland trying to cover up their historical complicity in the holocaust as well as thousands of years of toxic antisemitism is really not OK. So if the U.S. government objects to that (deeply flawed as it is under the current president), I agree with that objection. Period. End of story. 

 

On the area you want to hijack this to, it's no secret that the current U.S. administration has been much more open than usual in preference for Israel vs. the Palestinians in the local conflict there. But this isn't about that local conflict. It's about the history of World War 2 and the current Polish government's attempts to whitewash history. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Jingthing

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Poland trying to cover up their historical complicity in the holocaust as well as thousands of years of toxic antisemitism is really not OK. So if the U.S. government objects to that (deeply flawed as it is under the current president), I agree with that objection. Period. End of story. 

 

On the area you want to hijack this to, it's no secret that the current U.S. administration has been much more open than usual in preference for Israel vs. the Palestinians in the local conflict there. But this isn't about that local conflict. It's about the history of World War 2 and the current Polish government's attempts to whitewash history. 

That is your interpretation, thanks for that.

 

I think there is more to this though.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

That is your interpretation, thanks for that.

 

I think there is more to this though.

OK then. You know it's difficult to have much of a substantive discussion with you because you say so little specifically, readers are forced to guess at subtexts. 

[IAMHERE]

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

Why is the US objecting to this law, just to help their friend Israel?

Ten percent of the US congress is Jewish. Ten percent wields a lot of power. There was never ten percent of Germans that belonged to the NAZI party, never ten percent of the people belonged to the Communist party in Stalins Russia or Mao's China. That ten percent wields a pretty big stick in America.

[Jingthing]

Ten percent of the US congress is Jewish. Ten percent wields a lot of power. There was never ten percent of Germans that belonged to the NAZI party, never ten percent of the people belonged to the Communist party in Stalins Russia or Mao's China. That ten percent wields a pretty big stick in America.

You're suggesting an equivalence between American Jews and Nazis? Wow.

 

Forgetting the Jew baiting for a moment Jewish or not what is objectively good about this Polish law?  

 

 

BTW your statistic is wrong as if you care. The percentage of American Jews in congress is currently 5.6 percent not 10 percent.

 

http://m.jpost.com/Diaspora/Jews-in-US-senate-rises-to-56-percent-in-2017-477397

 

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[the guest]

Is Israel the 51st state of the USA ?

[Jingthing]

Is Israel the 51st state of the USA ?

No it is not and never will be. Israel is proudly a sovereign nation.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dexterm]

I have no doubt that some Poles were complicit with the Nazis in the murder of millions of Jews. It is also true that many Poles died in the concentration camps and fighting to liberate their country from the Nazis. This law is an over the top reaction that only draws attention to their role in events of almost 80 years ago.

Israel is right to condemn Poland for the censorship of their role in the Holocaust, but their criticism would carry more weight if they were not such hypocrites themselves when it comes to historical revisionism, mythology making  and attempts to silence any censure.

[stevenl]

13 hours ago, Jingthing said:

OK then. You know it's difficult to have much of a substantive discussion with you because you say so little specifically, readers are forced to guess at subtexts. 

No, the problem here is that as soon as Israel is mentioned you go in all out defense mode, all reason and rhyme gone. From that point on you start attacking said posters on anti Jewish bias, sometimes justified, often not justified, smothering any discussion.

[Scott]

Continue with the personal commentary and you will be joining another member on a suspension.  

 

Please stay on topic.  

 

[Baerboxer]

On 2/1/2018 at 4:34 PM, Jingthing said:

I don't agree with you. I think the history of French complicity in the holocaust is well documented and I'm not aware of a current French legal effort to sweep it under the carpet. The topic here is about POLAND. So obviously, France wouldn't be big in such a discussion. 

 

Agree to a degree. But when speaking about French collaboration, part of which was the arrest and deportation of Jews to almost certain death, history speaks of the Vichy government, of collaborators and of punishments for some of those criminals after the war.

Poland was very different - carved up by the Nazis and the Soviets and occupied. Then the Nazis overran it all. The Nazis, German, Polish, Ukrainian, Baltic State etc Nazis built and operated the concentration and extermination camps. Those camps were Nazi not defined by nationality. Nazism and it's racial hatred especially anti-semitism isn't bounded by country borders.

[Morch]

@dexterm

 

Not expecting consistency, but that would apply to them numerous one-sided pseudo-historical "accounts" filling your own posts.

 

Other than there is no real legal equivalence as implied in your post, the topic is about the US's position. Don't think that there's any equivalence there as well.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Morch

[Morch]

On 2/2/2018 at 7:09 AM, stevenl said:

No, the problem here is that as soon as Israel is mentioned you go in all out defense mode, all reason and rhyme gone. From that point on you start attacking said posters on anti Jewish bias, sometimes justified, often not justified, smothering any discussion.

 

You don't offer anything much to discuss, though. Tossing short hinted assertions and loaded questions is what's on offer.