Start with crypto now - Should or not?

[lkn]

11 minutes ago, Sirbergan said:

Back in the days, everyone thought swapping 10 hens for 1 pig was not gonna change too.

In fiat-land we have had instant contactless payments for years, we have instant transfers to friends from our mobile phone or even watch, etc.

 

In bitcoin land they are limited to processing 7 transactions per second which cost an average of $20 each, use 250 kWh, and by design a transaction takes at least 10 minutes (but you should wait for 3-4 confirmations, so more like 30-40 minutes, that is, if your transaction doesn’t have to wait in the queue first)…

 

The bitcoin whitepaper was interesting, but honestly, this blind bitcoin zealotry is just a big joke, you’re hyping something that is just so utterly useless for anything practical!

[beautifulthailand99]

9 minutes ago, speedtripler said:

That said it's up again today maybe we have reached a floor .... or a ceiling any mor dhus in the house ?

[Sirbergan]

Double post. Please ignore

Edited February 3, 2018 by Sirbergan
Double post

[DeeMak9]

31 minutes ago, Monomial said:

No, as I said. Individuals on those exchanges do NOT own the coins. They are owned by the exchange, who has liabilities to their individual investors. It is like saying a hedge fund does not own stock because individuals invest in the hedge fund.

 

The 2% claim is completely sound. You are trying to push an ideological argument rather than a factual one.

 

Sure, if you look at it that way. But to say 90% is in the hands of a few is untrue because many of those addresses are early miners (incl. sathoshi), who will most likely never use the funds because they lost access. Not a big bitcoin fan by the way. Theres much better tech out there now.

Edited February 3, 2018 by DeeMak9

[Sirbergan]

1 minute ago, lkn said:

In fiat-land we have had instant contactless payments for years, we have instant transfers to friends from our mobile phone or even watch, etc.

 

In bitcoin land they are limited to processing 7 transactions per second which cost an average of $20 each, use 250 kWh, and by design a transaction takes at least 10 minutes (but you should wait for 3-4 confirmations, so more like 30-40 minutes, that is, if your transaction doesn’t have to wait in the queue first)…

 

The bitcoin whitepaper was interesting, but honestly, this blind bitcoin zealotry is just a big joke, you’re hyping something that is just so utterly useless for anything practical!

And it's evolved from there, with many coins actually aiming to solve real world problems. Do you honestly think SWIFT with their 5–7 day transfers, requiring a massive team to verify payments, will prevail? Hell, no, that's going to change.

[Sirbergan]

1 minute ago, lkn said:

In fiat-land we have had instant contactless payments for years, we have instant transfers to friends from our mobile phone or even watch, etc.

 

In bitcoin land they are limited to processing 7 transactions per second which cost an average of $20 each, use 250 kWh, and by design a transaction takes at least 10 minutes (but you should wait for 3-4 confirmations, so more like 30-40 minutes, that is, if your transaction doesn’t have to wait in the queue first)…

 

The bitcoin whitepaper was interesting, but honestly, this blind bitcoin zealotry is just a big joke, you’re hyping something that is just so utterly useless for anything practical!

And it's evolved from there, with many coins actually aiming to solve real world problems. Do you honestly think SWIFT with their 5–7 day transfers, requiring a massive team to verify payments, will prevail? Hell, no, that's going to change. So whether or not crypto currencies will succeed or not, they are bringing change to systems that has been dormant or inefficient for decades. Be thankful for that, 5–7 days for an international transfer in 2018 is just ridiculous.

 

My biggest worry is that a lot of jobs will be lost or rendered unneeded.

[beautifulthailand99]

5 minutes ago, Sirbergan said:

And it's evolved from there, with many coins actually aiming to solve real world problems. Do you honestly think SWIFT with their 5–7 day transfers, requiring a massive team to verify payments, will prevail? Hell, no, that's going to change. So whether or not crypto currencies will succeed or not, they are bringing change to systems that has been dormant or inefficient for decades. Be thankful for that, 5–7 days for an international transfer in 2018 is just ridiculous.

 

My biggest worry is that a lot of jobs will be lost or rendered unneeded.

that worry applies to almost every sector. Blade Runner here we come. 

[Sirbergan]

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

that worry applies to almost every sector. Blade Runner here we come. 

If you really think that worry is unwarranted, you should read up about Moores Law.

[speedtripler]

43 minutes ago, lkn said:

In fiat-land we have had instant contactless payments for years, we have instant transfers to friends from our mobile phone or even watch, etc.

 

In bitcoin land they are limited to processing 7 transactions per second which cost an average of $20 each, use 250 kWh, and by design a transaction takes at least 10 minutes (but you should wait for 3-4 confirmations, so more like 30-40 minutes, that is, if your transaction doesn’t have to wait in the queue first)…

 

The bitcoin whitepaper was interesting, but honestly, this blind bitcoin zealotry is just a big joke, you’re hyping something that is just so utterly useless for anything practical!

It costs less than a $1 to move $460 million worth of btc thesedays 

 

 

You're not exactly paying attention to current affairs are you? 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2018 by speedtripler

[Skeptic7]

34 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

or wasting your time posting on an internet forum. Textbook case of showing you have too much spare time on your hands (guilty !).

Yes! Too much spare time on my hands at a quite young age and extremely proud of it! Thx 4 acknowledging! 

[lkn]

29 minutes ago, speedtripler said:

It costs less than a $1 to move $460 million worth of btc thesedays 

The average transaction fee is currently $10 and on its way up.

 

Do you know that bitcoin can only do 7 transactions per second? Do you know that if there are more than 7, they are queued and miners will pick the transactions that are paying the highest fees? Do you realize just how absurdly bad this system is for consumers?

 

The more popular it becomes to transfer money with bitcoin, the longer the queue, and the higher the price to get your transaction through, as it’s basically an auction.

[lkn]

49 minutes ago, Sirbergan said:

And it's evolved from there, with many coins actually aiming to solve real world problems. Do you honestly think SWIFT with their 5–7 day transfers, requiring a massive team to verify payments, will prevail? […]

What sort of real world problems are coins solving?

 

As for SWIFT, PayPal already gave them competition long before bitcoin. International transfers is not something a lot of people need, which is why it sucks, although I do Wells Fargo (USD) → Krungthai (THB) in 10-15 hours (not 7-8 days).

 

As for “massive teams to verify payments”, are you referring to AML/KYC procedures? Because that is not a technology problem, and bitcoin does zero to solve that.

 

Furthermore, as it stands today, bitcoin is *not* an alternative to using banks for international transfers, as you can’t use your bitcoins, so you have to go through a bank to cash out. TransferWise is probably a better alternative for international transfers, or even PayPal.

 

Common in these bitcoin threads is a hatred toward banks and fiat, but pointing out issues with these does not change the fact that bitcoin is nowhere near being a viable alternative, and it’s not just evolving the current source code, the way it is designed just doesn’t scale, and then you have all the other problems, like actually relying on a currency that can be subject to denial-of-service attacks, or where losing your private key means actually losing all your coins, etc.

[Jabers]

12 hours ago, Wonderboy said:

That survey sure weighs heavy. Millennials prefer bitcoin to gold. What could possibly be wrong with that? Millennial: The epitome of financial wisdom

 

10 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Yes definitely...go ALL in! Let it ride! Take a flyer on something that is...

 

...a digital, shit-filled bubble mania which...

1. has NO intrinsic value

2. has HIGH volatility

3. Is highly unstable

3. IS gambling, not an investment

4. Is purely SPECULATIVE

Cryptos...

Understood...NOT

Private...not

Free transactions...not

Tax free...not

EZ to use...not

Widely accepted...not

Even Minimally accepted...not

Safe...not

Secure...not

Intrinsic value...NONE (this bears repeating)

To sum it up...an overblown, over-inflated, over-ripe shit filled balloon that is going to explode. Sure...a lucky minority will make or have made BANK...while the vast majority are about to get hosed. 

 

9 hours ago, HerbalEd said:

I'll trust what Warren Buffett has to say about cryptocurrencies: "It will end badly."

 

9 hours ago, speedtripler said:

A lot of "warning", posts from people who possess a wealth of no idea.... Yet they are hanging out on a cryptocurrency subforum for some strange reason..... 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, DeeMak9 said:

Not only gold but fiat as well. You could even swap "bitcoin" with "sofas" and its still correct. If people stop buying something, it wont have any value. Genius!

 

And before people start saying Bitcoin is hardly used as a payment method, they should consider that at least half of the cryptocurrency trades are in Bitcoin. Which is approximately 15 billion dollars daily.

 

 

 

 

LOL. there is no need to waste time trying to talk crypto to all the old men on here. they dont understand it at all and will never embrace it. old people have the hardest mindset to ever change. look at all the politicians, old with terrible old school ideas that hold back progress.

 

i guarantee all these old guys on here said the same thing when the internet came out... "who needs this electronic news and mail. i get mine in the mail and on paper and it works fine. this will never be popular. no one will ever use it and i hate technology!". probably acted the same about facebook too.

 

i could go on all day, but i got too many coins to research and trades to make to waste time begging old guys to embrace crypto. i have made a ton from crypto, and i know for sure its not going anywhere. only up :)

[DeeMak9]

34 minutes ago, lkn said:

What sort of real world problems are coins solving?

 

As for SWIFT, PayPal already gave them competition long before bitcoin. International transfers is not something a lot of people need, which is why it sucks, although I do Wells Fargo (USD) → Krungthai (THB) in 10-15 hours (not 7-8 days).

 

As for “massive teams to verify payments”, are you referring to AML/KYC procedures? Because that is not a technology problem, and bitcoin does zero to solve that.

 

Furthermore, as it stands today, bitcoin is *not* an alternative to using banks for international transfers, as you can’t use your bitcoins, so you have to go through a bank to cash out. TransferWise is probably a better alternative for international transfers, or even PayPal.

 

Common in these bitcoin threads is a hatred toward banks and fiat, but pointing out issues with these does not change the fact that bitcoin is nowhere near being a viable alternative, and it’s not just evolving the current source code, the way it is designed just doesn’t scale, and then you have all the other problems, like actually relying on a currency that can be subject to denial-of-service attacks, or where losing your private key means actually losing all your coins, etc.

Im amazed by the amount of untrue statements in this topic, but I should not forget this is Thaivisa. Cryptocurrencies can not be subject to ddos attacks because of their decentralized nature, and cryptocurrencies in general are not meant to replace something like swift (actually ripple is, but you can hardly call that a true crypto) nor paypal.

[phycokiller]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

The average transaction fee is currently $10 and on its way up.

 

 

actually $3.50 right now and likely to drop over the next year

[speedtripler]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

The average transaction fee is currently $10 and on its way up.

 

Do you know that bitcoin can only do 7 transactions per second? Do you know that if there are more than 7, they are queued and miners will pick the transactions that are paying the highest fees? Do you realize just how absurdly bad this system is for consumers?

 

The more popular it becomes to transfer money with bitcoin, the longer the queue, and the higher the price to get your transaction through, as it’s basically an auction.

Nonsense, people like you said the Internet was unable to scale...... 

[Meljames]

So many experts on this thread. 

[212Roger]

Now, no.

[shaurene]

Invest what you are prepared to lose. Just read up from Google latest news Bitcoin etc. over the last month Bitcoin has lost 21%, over the last day 8%. Bitcoin fell to the unbelievable under $8,000 price, it has recovered to over $9,000 now. Litecoin, considered Bitcoins heir fell 50% over the last month. Ripple just as bad. There are now over 300 crypto currencies, they are all getting onto the band wagon, making millions and a number of them just vanish with the money.

Warren Buffett has announced he has ruled out a foray in the crypto currency markets.

The statements made by the agents selling them sound great, but that is their job. We have noticed over the last month so many country's are coming up with new laws and conditions, they are realising the currency's are easily being used for money laundering and I can see they are not going to let this happen.

i was thinking about investing towards the end of last year but I went into it more and decided NO NO NO. Always remember CASH IS KING.

[speedtripler]

46 minutes ago, shaurene said:

Invest what you are prepared to lose. Just read up from Google latest news Bitcoin etc. over the last month Bitcoin has lost 21%, over the last day 8%. Bitcoin fell to the unbelievable under $8,000 price, it has recovered to over $9,000 now. Litecoin, considered Bitcoins heir fell 50% over the last month. Ripple just as bad. There are now over 300 crypto currencies, they are all getting onto the band wagon, making millions and a number of them just vanish with the money.

Warren Buffett has announced he has ruled out a foray in the crypto currency markets.

The statements made by the agents selling them sound great, but that is their job. We have noticed over the last month so many country's are coming up with new laws and conditions, they are realising the currency's are easily being used for money laundering and I can see they are not going to let this happen.

i was thinking about investing towards the end of last year but I went into it more and decided NO NO NO. Always remember CASH IS KING.

Cash hasn't been king for a long long time

 

[lkn]

7 hours ago, DeeMak9 said:

Im amazed by the amount of untrue statements in this topic, but I should not forget this is Thaivisa. Cryptocurrencies can not be subject to ddos attacks because of their decentralized nature, and cryptocurrencies in general are not meant to replace something like swift (actually ripple is, but you can hardly call that a true crypto) nor paypal.

As for bitcoin being immune to denial-of-service attacks; that is just ridiculous! It runs on the internet, and the internet is not immune to denial-of-service attacks, though if you have bitcoins to spend, you can simply spam the mempool.

 

Even bitcoin’s own FAQ says: “Bitcoin has some denial-of-service prevention built-in, but is likely still vulnerable to more sophisticated denial-of-service attacks”.

 

The SWIFT comment was in response to someone else bringing up the slowness of his international transfers (that he thinks is related to SWIFT) as a “defence” of bitcoin.

[lkn]

7 hours ago, speedtripler said:

Nonsense, people like you said the Internet was unable to scale...... 

I have never heard anyone say the internet wouldn’t scale. What was the technical argument for that?

 

The problem with the blockchain is that it is a distributed ledger of *all* transactions. If you do tens of thousands of transactions per second (like VISA) there is just no way you can send all that data to all nodes in the network, remember, even your mobile phone with a wallet is a node, so your phone would have to receive more than 80 Mbit/s *all the time* just to keep up. Your data plan would not allow it, nor would your phone have enough storage space for all this data.

 

Regardless of how optimistic you are about future storage technology and bandwidth, it is just not feasible to broadcast all transactions to everyone in the entire world.

 

And *this* is why bitcoin has a deliberate cap on the block size, which limits it to about 7 transactions per second.

 

The wallet on your phone problem has one practical solution, namely to not be a full node, but instead rely on a server that can be queried for information, but that changes the architecture from distributed trustless to client/server and if everyone were to use a server based wallet, they are not actually using bitcoin anymore (making the blockchain pointless).

 

For the issue with the blockchain itself, there are proposals for 2nd layer payment networks, but there are some real problems with the current proposals. Would you like to discuss some of these?

Edited February 4, 2018 by lkn

[lkn]

7 hours ago, phycokiller said:

actually $3.50 right now and likely to drop over the next year

I got my data from here: https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html#3m

 

Even on bitcoin.org they have now removed “low fees” (and “fast transactions”) from the list of advantages with using bitcoin.

 

The transaction fees goes up when there are more transactions than the miners can process in real-time, and there is a very low limit of number of transactions that can be processed in real time, so predicting lower transaction fees over the next year is basically predicting less transactions over the next year.

 

Though maybe your prediction is based on thinking that people will move to off-chain settlement?

[speedtripler]

9 hours ago, phycokiller said:

actually $3.50 right now and likely to drop over the next year

It's only $3.50 because most wallets are overpaying because the default settings are too high and novice users don't know how to set it manually

 

I moved large amounts of btc around last week for $1 per tx  and half that much would probably have been enough

[ncc1701d]

Was thinking about it, but It’s not easy to register to start buying and selling and the whole reason behind it (people with limited or no access to banks and money) is therefore no longer valid. People are now not buying it to use, but to speculate. Too volatile for me. And to answer the op’s question - which crypto to invest in... only a few will survive and there are thousands to choose from. Better off at roulette - at least only a 37-1 chance there!

[Meljames]

11 hours ago, 212Roger said:

Now, no.

 

If not now; when?

[Jabers]

5 hours ago, lkn said:

I have never heard anyone say the internet wouldn’t scale. What was the technical argument for that?

 

The problem with the blockchain is that it is a distributed ledger of *all* transactions. If you do tens of thousands of transactions per second (like VISA) there is just no way you can send all that data to all nodes in the network, remember, even your mobile phone with a wallet is a node, so your phone would have to receive more than 80 Mbit/s *all the time* just to keep up. Your data plan would not allow it, nor would your phone have enough storage space for all this data.

 

Regardless of how optimistic you are about future storage technology and bandwidth, it is just not feasible to broadcast all transactions to everyone in the entire world.

 

And *this* is why bitcoin has a deliberate cap on the block size, which limits it to about 7 transactions per second.

 

The wallet on your phone problem has one practical solution, namely to not be a full node, but instead rely on a server that can be queried for information, but that changes the architecture from distributed trustless to client/server and if everyone were to use a server based wallet, they are not actually using bitcoin anymore (making the blockchain pointless).

 

For the issue with the blockchain itself, there are proposals for 2nd layer payment networks, but there are some real problems with the current proposals. Would you like to discuss some of these?

 

ummmmm. you are so wrong it hurts.

 

mobile wallets are NOT full node wallets. you DO NOT download and store the whole blockchain on your mobile wallet. that would be over 500gb just to download the ledger for the wallet on your mobile phone.

 

please educate yourself before arguing things like that.

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Jabers

[vukovar77]

On 2/3/2018 at 12:05 PM, phycokiller said:

bitcoin can only be baned in a fascist police state with no internet, and in any case some countries have already embraced it. I would argue that this last bubble from around $1000 to $8000 now is mainly from Japanese investment due to their governments acceptance of it. Singapore and Switzerland also

Not true.Bitcoin is a close to Ponzi scheme,for a me and a most of people.

[vukovar77]

26 minutes ago, Meljames said:

 

If not now; when?

NEVER.

[Meljames]

34 minutes ago, vukovar77 said:

NEVER.

 

Been buying all week mate.