2 Passports Thai & USA

[900312611]

I have a US/Thai passport question, please:

Wife (Thai) and I live in the US, she has been here 42 years, we’ve been married 40 years and she’s been naturalized 39 years, has US passport.

 Last time she went home, 2015, she ‘renewed her Thai ID card’, but could only do so in her ‘maiden name’ because that’s what’s on the house registry, she didn’t get a Thai passport because she wanted one in her married name, but didn’t have right papers.

Fast for to present day; we (both of us) may be going to Thailand June/July to visit for a month (but may come back to Thailand sometime later to live); we now have court certified copies of US marriage license and hope to get her maiden name recognized to her married name while over there, was told would be easier while there, and get a Thai passport; if that doesn’t work someone suggested just getting married in Thailand. Enough of the social history…My wife wants to get a Thai passport while there and has a US passport now. We have been told if she arrives on her US passport, then she will have to get a VISA and be subject to VISA runs or some other sort of long stay VISA if we decide to come back to live.

Couple of scenarios:

This summer she would be entering Thailand on US passport (wants to get Thai passport while there) so her entry would be under US and stamped thusly; if she would then leave a month later (30 day free visa) to come back to US wouldn’t it cause a problem if she left using Thai PP and entering US under US PP…US would see US PP was not stamped upon leaving Thailand.

Scenario#2

Later on, let’s say maybe a year or so (she already got a Thai passport on last visit but didn’t used it  when leaving Thailand because we both entered on US PP with 30 day visa) if she arrives on her Thai passport, they will see it was not stamped when exiting the US. When we go to leave Thailand I am thinking it will also be a problem if she shows her Thai passport, but when we arrive back in the US and use US passport to enter, they will also see that Thailand did not stamp the US one when she left.

How do all of you juggle the 2 passports when your wife has dual citizenship in order to not have to deal with VISA's, hiding the fact that she has both,  we’re both senior citizens and don’t want any legal problems.

I was also wondering if she owns land and a house in Thailand (which she does) can that be a problem with her US citizenship?

Thank you for all the advice in advance!

[Crossy]

Your wife MUST enter and leave on the same passport. Just keep the nice new Thai passport in her bag when exiting.

 

You will both get 30 day visa exemption stamps when you arrive being US passport holders, these can be extended at immigration for a further 30 days for a cost of 1900 Baht.

 

Your wife can also get a long term extension for being a Thai citizen, but since you are returning to the US after a month or so it's not worth it, just get her Thai passport and use it next time.

 

Many countries (UK for example) don't stamp passports on exit, incoming immigration rarely ask where exit stamps are (land borders are the exception), I wouldn't worry.

 

Rule No 1 of having multiple passports "never, ever, show both passports to any official (Thai or otherwise)", many are jobsworths and will happily make up rules to cause you pain.

 

[900312611]

Thank You...so if I understand correctly there should be no legal problem, once she gets Thai passport on this summer's visit, that upon the next trip to Thailand she uses US passport to leave & renter USA, and Thai passport to enter & leave Thailand...won't each country see there was no exit/entry stamp from corresponding country's passport; won't that cause a problem on either side?

Thank You  

[Crossy]

59 minutes ago, 900312611 said:

won't each country see there was no exit/entry stamp from corresponding country's passport; won't that cause a problem on either side?

As noted earlier, many countries don't stamp out, incoming immigration rarely care about other countries stamps.

 

If, in a rare case, they do ask, neither Thailand nor the US prohibit multiple citizenship.

 

There is a slight possibility that when entering on a "virgin" Thai passport the officer may ask where her exit stamp from Thailand is, just tell the truth, if there continues to be a problem ask for a supervisor. As a Thai citizen they cannot prevent her entering.

[ubonjoe]

Another option is for her to get a Thai passport from the embassy in DC or one of the consulates in New York. Chicago or Los Angeles.

Where were you married at?

If married in the US she will need to register your marriage to change her name.

[TerryLH]

No problem with her buying land or a house.

[yooper]

If she already owns property in her maiden name I'd suspect keeping that name on the passport would make best sense....

Edited February 12, 2018 by yooper
typo

[ubonjoe]

20 minutes ago, yooper said:

If she already owns property in her maiden name I'd suspect keeping that name on the passport would make best sense....

Why?

When she changes her name she will get proof of it that can used later for any transactions.

[phuketrichard]

Quote

Thank You...so if I understand correctly there should be no legal problem, once she gets Thai passport on this summer's visit, that upon the next trip to Thailand she uses US passport to leave & renter USA, and Thai passport to enter & leave Thailand...won't each country see there was no exit/entry stamp from corresponding country's passport; won't that cause a problem on either side?

Thank You  

100%  NO problem with stamps via Air, At the airline check in counter they might ask when she  returns to the states and she entered on her thai passport and you can show both passports.  Immigration never asks..
Has she ever had a thai passport ( she must have once...)?  Does she still have the expired one>  She can enter Thailand on it and than just renew while ur there.

My daughter holds US/thai passports.

[yooper]

28 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Why?  When she changes her name she will get proof of it that can used later for any transactions.

Why do I suspect? 

Because of recent experiences that do not conform to advice/information that I was given by both Thai and US govt sources, not to mention online forums.

 

My wife's married name is on her US Passport and she has been denied a new ID card.even thought she was successfully added to her sisters house registration book.. you may remember my rants.   That certainly may not be the reason she was denied, but the thought crossed my mind after reading the OPs questions. IMO the possibility  exists that the administrator assumed my wife renounced her Thai citizenship... the administrator did in fact say that the refusal was based of her American passport, whether that be a wrong decision or not it stands to this day and there is little that can be done about without incurring substantial legal fees with no guarantee of a reversal. I really don't care about that at this point. (My wife is already looking forward to returning to Michigan, lol)

 

If the OPs wife changes her name and runs into some uninformed folks like I ran into they MIGHT end up so confused as to produce unexpected .results. Call me paranoid, I don't care. I also don't see any issue with her (OPs wife)  keeping her Thai name.... what benefit does she get by being married to a foreigner? 

Edited February 12, 2018 by ubonjoe
removed images posted in error

[yooper]

oops... I'd accidentally attached an image.... took a bit to figure out how to remove it, sorry.

Edited February 12, 2018 by yooper
typo

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, yooper said:

Because of recent experiences that do not conform to advice/information that I was given by both Thai and US govt sources, not to mention online forums.

Your experience was not normal and there was no reason for it. Just a bureaucrat talking nonsense.

[GroveHillWanderer]

I posted this on another thread just recently but my daughter had no problems entering Thailand on a previously-unused Thai passport. She was in a similar situation to your wife - she entered Thailand on a UK passport, got her Thai passport while she was here, then left on her UK passport (you should always use the same passport to enter and leave Thailand).

 

The next time she came back, she entered on her 'virgin' Thai passport. The lack of an exit stamp was not a problem. There have been reports of confused or uninformed IO's telling people in this scenario that they should or even must enter on the foreign passport - any such request or instruction should be politely but firmly resisted (ask to see a supervisor if necessary).

 

There is no reason why a Thai national should be prevented from entering on their Thai passport - as others have said, even an expired Thai passport can be used to enter the country.

[yooper]

16 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Your experience was not normal and there was no reason for it. Just a bureaucrat talking nonsense.

True, and it could happen anytime anywhere, and apparently nonsense flies here since the immediate supervisor backed up the decision.  Not sure if brother-in-law is still trying to appeal to a higher authority, but it would be for satisfaction to save his own face because I am satisfied with our retirement "visas" and could care less one way or another. I have to jump thru the hoops for reporting, extensions, re-entry, etc. so wife can just come along for the ride too. 

 

The OP apparently is not going to be here long term, so not clear why he is even bothering with a Thai passport since the visa on entry is free and zero hassle and he hasn't indicated any long term plans...  

 

 

Edited February 12, 2018 by yooper
typo

[GroveHillWanderer]

5 minutes ago, yooper said:

The OP apparently is not going to be here long term, so not clear why he is even bothering with a Thai passport since the visa on entry is free and zero hassle and he hasn't indicate any long term plans...  

 

Yes, he has. This from the OP:

 

"we (both of us) may be going to Thailand June/July to visit for a month (but may come back to Thailand sometime later to live)"

[yooper]

9 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Yes, he has. This from the OP:

 

"we (both of us) may be going to Thailand June/July to visit for a month (but may come back to Thailand sometime later to live)"

Lol, while 'may' is not really a plan in my book  I'll concede your point even though that still does not require a passport or the tedium of getting one for the upcoming trip. 

 

If my wife had a valid ID card in her maiden name and owned property with that name on it, my own personal approach would be to let sleeping dogs lie, report the foreigner (husband) as a resident there (assuming they would live there) and enter the country on a Thai passport issued in the usa, just prior to the time the plan 'may' take place as that would extend the expiration date of the passport to the furthest future date.

[Maestro]

1 hour ago, yooper said:

...My wife's married name is on her US Passport and she has been denied a new ID card.even thought she was successfully added to her sisters house registration book...there is little that can be done about without incurring substantial legal fees with no guarantee of a reversal...

4

 

The question is whether your wife cares to get her Thai ID card and passport renewed so that she may again be able to fully exercise her rights as a Thai national. No legal fees need be incurred by using one of these options:

1. File a written complaint with the Ombudsman:
   http://www.ombudsman.go.th/10/index1.asp
2. File a written complaint with the government hotline:
   http://www.1111.go.th/
3. File a written complaint with the police station (only if she has a document from the district office stating the refusal)

In her complaint, she should not go into a lengthy sob story, just give the facts briefly and accurately, eg:

•  I am a Thai national with ID card <card number> issued on <date>
• When my ID card expired, I went to the <district name> district office and applied for a new ID card.
• The district official <name> and his superior official <name> refused to issue a new D card to me.

The reason why government officials get away unpunished with dereliction of duty and abuse of power is because not enough people make formal written complaints about it.

 

Whichever option your wife chooses, the district office will respond with the lame excuse that there was a misunderstanding and will ask your wife to go back and get her new ID card. 

[samran]

1 hour ago, yooper said:

Why do I suspect? 

Because of recent experiences that do not conform to advice/information that I was given by both Thai and US govt sources, not to mention online forums.

 

My wife's married name is on her US Passport and she has been denied a new ID card.even thought she was successfully added to her sisters house registration book.. you may remember my rants.   That certainly may not be the reason she was denied, but the thought crossed my mind after reading the OPs questions. IMO the possibility  exists that the administrator assumed my wife renounced her Thai citizenship... the administrator did in fact say that the refusal was based of her American passport, whether that be a wrong decision or not it stands to this day and there is little that can be done about without incurring substantial legal fees with no guarantee of a reversal. I really don't care about that at this point. (My wife is already looking forward to returning to Michigan, lol)

 

If the OPs wife changes her name and runs into some uninformed folks like I ran into they MIGHT end up so confused as to produce unexpected .results. Call me paranoid, I don't care. I also don't see any issue with her (OPs wife)  keeping her Thai name.... what benefit does she get by being married to a foreigner? 

If your wife is clearly registered on the house register and her nationality is clearly defined as ‘thai’ then the official is playing silly buggers. She is entitled to an ID card, and following that, she can apply for a thai passport.

 

Both my mother and aunt got their ID cards after 40 year absences, the latter after trawling through ancient paper records in the district archive. 

 

The issue is generally establishing ones identity. The usual method is to have two people vouch for that person. 

 

To the OP - dual citizenship is legal. The advice about getting a passport before visiting is the best, but can obviously be done when visiting and then used upon returning for the next trip. 

 

FWIW - my mothers ID is still all in her maiden name after all this time. Her foreign passport is in her married name. Not an issue coming and going doing the passport swap mid air. 

Edited February 12, 2018 by samran

[900312611]

Everyone, thank you for your response.

We 'are' planning on going  to Thailand this June/July to see her sisters,  hopefully get married name recognized, get Thai passport hopefully in married name as this is what she wants, also will help when we come back to live because she has her own social security ("may" was polite way of saying in all likelihood) check about O visas and bank accounts, and basically look around for to see what's available for housing.

She has a renewed ID card (2015), but only in maiden name, also she is half owner of a house one of her sister's lives in for the last 20 years.  

[yooper]

15 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

The question is whether your wife cares to get her Thai ID card and passport renewed so that she may again be able to fully exercise her rights as a Thai national. No legal fees need be incurred by using one of these options:

1. File a written complaint with the Ombudsman:
   http://www.ombudsman.go.th/10/index1.asp
2. File a written complaint with the government hotline:
   http://www.1111.go.th/
3. File a written complaint with the police station (only if she has a document from the district office stating the refusal)

In her complaint, she should not go into a lengthy sob story, just give the facts briefly and accurately, eg:

•  I am a Thai national with ID card <card number> issued on <date>
• When my ID card expired, I went to the <district name> district office and applied for a new ID card.
• The district official <name> and his superior official <name> refused to issue a new D card to me.

The reason why government officials get away unpunished with dereliction of duty and abuse of power is because not enough people make formal written complaints about it.

 

Whichever option your wife chooses, the district office will respond with the lame excuse that there was a misunderstanding and will ask your wife to go back and get her new ID card. 

Thank you very much for this information. My wife's brother in law was quite disturbed by the refusal and indicated a personal desire to correct the situation so I have passed the info to him. While it would be nice to  avoid the fees and paperwork required for annual  6 month visits here on an American  passport w/ non-o 'retirement' visa, I have to endure the routine in any case, and the fees are not a problem for us so my wife can accompany me and do likewise. While we have had very pleasant experiences with Thai immigration here in Samut Prakan we have lost all motivation for further interaction with the local level bureaucracy after the disgusting and imo bigoted treatment we received at the the Pak Nam district office. The person there went so far as to accuse my wife of attempting to qualify for Thai 'welfare'. (approx 600 baht/month), while insisting that she was 'not Thai' any longer, (even though her name was in her sisters Thai house registry) which was all very upsetting to my wife.... so <deleted> 'em is her attitude now.....  although I do know she would be pleased if her brother in law were able to correct the situation and perhaps even extract an apology from the bureaucrats at that District Office.

[samran]

4 hours ago, yooper said:

Thank you very much for this information. My wife's brother in law was quite disturbed by the refusal and indicated a personal desire to correct the situation so I have passed the info to him. While it would be nice to  avoid the fees and paperwork required for annual  6 month visits here on an American  passport w/ non-o 'retirement' visa, I have to endure the routine in any case, and the fees are not a problem for us so my wife can accompany me and do likewise. While we have had very pleasant experiences with Thai immigration here in Samut Prakan we have lost all motivation for further interaction with the local level bureaucracy after the disgusting and imo bigoted treatment we received at the the Pak Nam district office. The person there went so far as to accuse my wife of attempting to qualify for Thai 'welfare'. (approx 600 baht/month), while insisting that she was 'not Thai' any longer, (even though her name was in her sisters Thai house registry) which was all very upsetting to my wife.... so <deleted> 'em is her attitude now.....  although I do know she would be pleased if her brother in law were able to correct the situation and perhaps even extract an apology from the bureaucrats at that District Office.

I’d say screw-em too, but go back and not leave till she gets what is hers by right (and law). Tell him if he doesn’t do his job you’ll refer him to the administrative court (Sarn Bok-krong) which has jurisdiction over civil servants and government organizations- and is surprisingly independent (which the civil servants know). 

 

You come across these  civil servants spongers from time to time and being a bit out of the big smoke like to wield there power over people whom they consider unknowledgeable. It’s always fun to shown them up.

Edited February 13, 2018 by samran

[yooper]

21 minutes ago, samran said:

I’d say screw-em too, but go back and not leave till she gets what is hers by right (and law). Tell him if he doesn’t do his job you’ll refer him to the administrative court (Sarn Bok-krong) which has jurisdiction over civil servants and government organizations- and is surprisingly independent (which the civil servants know). 

 

You come across these  civil servants spongers from time to time and being a bit out of the big smoke like to wield there power over people whom they consider unknowledgeable. It’s always fun to shown them up.

I'll leave the threats regarding admin court to brother-in-law. He is a retired govt employee so may (should?) already know about the admin court. It only costs a couple thousand baht per year for a re-entry permit and extension renewal so no big deal although it would be nice to deny them that revenue,  but our beef is not with the immigration folks and since I don't speak or read Thai she has to come along with me anyway to order lunch out in the parking lot and give directions to the taxi driver .... 

[yooper]

20 hours ago, 900312611 said:

Everyone, thank you for your response.

We 'are' planning on going  to Thailand this June/July to see her sisters,  hopefully get married name recognized, get Thai passport hopefully in married name as this is what she wants, also will help when we come back to live because she has her own social security ("may" was polite way of saying in all likelihood) check about O visas and bank accounts, and basically look around for to see what's available for housing.

She has a renewed ID card (2015), but only in maiden name, also she is half owner of a house one of her sister's lives in for the last 20 years.  

Social security... Thai or US?  Hard to imagine what impact you anticipate with that....

 

We are married 44 years next month, were married here in '74 and still have the documents. After just a couple months my wife definitely does not to live here year round even though she has family here.  You might care to note that depending on where you live here, air pollution here has become as bad as the very worst places in the world and is a most definite health hazard around any metropolitan area and there is nothing being done about it while new industry is expanding everywhere with a new international airport near Rayong and railways on the books for the very near future. Some schools in Bangkok even close on the especially toxic days.

See https://air.plumelabs.com/en/live/bangkok  and  http://aqicn.org/city/bangkok/  ,  for more real time info. We live about 25km east of Bangkok, there is a permanent haze in the sky.  We are also renting a place in Pattaya on the beach and it is not much better down there, headed that way tomorrow. 

 

We had a couple reasons for coming here, one of which was wife's sister and 2 of her brothers are in poor health, and while the Thai health system is generally fantastic there is clear evidence that overall health probably won't improve and  the siblings may not even survive for many more years given their economic status and the rapidly deteriorating air quality. 

 

Another reason was to escape the harsh winters at our home and to see how well we could live on our own social security income here if it should that become necessary.  While both of those conditions get 5 stars,  it is not clear if similar reasons play any part for "when" you come back to live.  Our plans now involve selling our rural property and moving into a townhouse where I won't have to shovel snow or do yardwork ... turns out the wife is missing the snowbelt now too.  ( she has never shoveled any  snow )