American claims self-defense as patron says man murdered in Pattaya was "trouble-maker"

[spidermike007]

There is a huge difference between coming to the aid of a woman in distress, and then defending one's self, after being attacked by a drunken creep, and knocking a guy down, then kicking him in the head 10-15 times while he is down. Self defense is about immobilizing your enemy or attacker. Once a guy is down and out, that is the end of the game. Your job is finished. 

 

Lets see if some real facts emerge. And why have a security system, if you are not willing to keep it functional? Sounds fishy. Does not pass the wiff test.

[TomJoad]

The last time I was in Pattaya, I thought that there must be a convention of single white males somewhere in town I didn't know about.  

[hobobo]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

 

No they wouldn't. 

 

The American admits to hitting him several times which is ironic given some new "witnesses" claim he only hit him once!

 

Grabbing a bar worker isn't acceptable. If the American intervened and then the Aussie turned on him, the American was fully entitled to defend himself. And that defense has to use reasonable force in most legal systems. If he hit him several times, then maybe, possibly, that might have been reasonable depending how drunk and violent the Australian was. But stomping on his head and face, 10-15 times is not only way over the top it's more than likely to kill or have life changing effects. The media reports call the facial and head injuries "catastrophic" which suggests that the initial story was accurate.

 

The problem is as usual here, no CCTV, unreliable witnesses and new stories springing up. Add to that the Keystone NAAFI cops and things will slowly meander away. It will cost the American, probably a lot, but as long as he can pay, grovels to the right people, then it will fade away.

 

I read that the deceased was an expat rather than tourist. Are the American and his friends tourists or expats? Just interested to see their background.

"Are the American and his friends tourists or expats? Just interested to see their background."

 

Not sure whether they are tourists or expats, but they are definitely low life.

[bkkcanuck8]

9 hours ago, Sevenbells said:

Witnesses might be "friends of the bar" and biased. The no cctv is disturbing too.

Usually, things like local watering holes with regular customers will have witnesses with differing or competing versions of reality.  Add in the bar itself may have a motive for a particular scenario and those that work at/for the bar may be encouraged to alter their story to a certain bit.  Get the statements, but wait for the full autopsy to start measuring them against.  The law has a very fine line between self-defense and murder/manslaughter -- not all actions can be just waived away with the self-defense wand.  If the "interference" goes any farther into punishment -- or excessive force then self-defence is invalidated.

[Briggsy]

What a surprise.

 

This guy is a previous convicted murderer in the US and has served time for it.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Easy to see from what has been reported that he could be charged with Manslaughter (3rd Degree Murder). I highly doubt he internded to kill the other guy, and even if he only threw one punch, he was the first one to throw it. 

 

Fine and dandy to step in to try and help a Damsel in distress, but it was her getting attacked and not him. You cannot claim self defense if there is not threat on you or your life, unless of course that person being attacked was your daughter or wife. 

[bkkcanuck8]

24 minutes ago, smacks41 said:

It's not 1st degree, as for it to be 1st  degree, he would have had to go into the bar with the intent to kill the drunken Aussie thug.  Don't think that was the case.  It sounds like words were probably exchanged to begin with, and then escalated from there. 

I don't think that is quite correct.  There are many different tests and it varies by jurisdiction but IF the death was caused by multiple kicks to the head -- it would likely qualify for 1st degree (Thailand has different terms but it sort of follows the same line).  The specific intent can happen 1 hour before, 1 minute before or just before when swinging.  Many jurisdictions also include other tests such as depraved indifference to human life... and if the boots to the head are the correct story it would definitely qualify.  If you get into a fight and take one punch a person and they fall and are dead - that falls on one side.  If however you grab a bat and swing it at the person in a fight - it would fall on the other side.   

[wazzupnow]

15 hours ago, chickenslegs said:

Should be fairly easy for the pathologist to distinguish between the latest version "one punch knocking the victim to the floor" and the earlier reports of "10 to 15 kicks or stamps to the head".

 

 

 

right on to the point, no more speculations needed

[wandasloan]

3 hours ago, mstevens said:

Sorry, with reports in the other thread and on other forums that this American was found guilty of murder in the USA in the '90s and did years in prison for this, his protestations of self-defence don't ring true to me.

 

He was convicted of second degree manslaughter with a gun but did not serve any time for it. Long story but it's available, although only for people lucky enough to have access to the internet.

 

 

[Briggsy]

Last month we had a Soi 6 girl thrown off a balcony. Turns out the guy involved is a convicted rapist from the UK.

 

This month we have a customer killed in a Soi 6 bar. Turns out the guy involved is a convicted murderer from the US.

 

What are the chances of that? I don't think it is coincidence.

[Tambs2020]

Well, according to the news in Australia, The deceased had only arrived in Thailand 24hrs prior for a holiday.

So that takes away this BS about "Being known to be violent regularly at this place"

Also, The american has a violent past history, as well as being done for manslaughter in the past!

 

Hmmmm...I smell a lot of BS from the accused and his mates!

[cornishcarlos]

1 minute ago, Tambs2020 said:

Well, according to the news in Australia, The deceased had only arrived in Thailand 24hrs prior for a holiday.

So that takes away this BS about "Being known to be violent regularly at this place"

 

It's already been pointed out, several times, that he may have just arrived but he could be a frequent tourist.

So he could well have been a regular in this bar.

I have a friend who travels there often. Always stays in the same place and drinks in the same bar.

[JAZZDOG]

Seems to me no assault here in LOS is not complete without "10-15 head stomps". End results all depend on who and how large the stomper is.

[lanng khao]

 
It's already been pointed out, several times, that he may have just arrived but he could be a frequent tourist.
So he could well have been a regular in this bar.
I have a friend who travels there often. Always stays in the same place and drinks in the same bar.

Spot on, and he could of been 5 seconds away from having a murdered Thai girl on his hands if the yank hasn't got involved, live by the sword, die by the sword.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[PEE TEE]

OKSo self defense is one thing . but if the case was that of stamping on his head approx. 15 times takes away self defense as uncontrollable temper . just to knock him out would have done  

[Lokie]

5 minutes ago, lanng khao said:

Spot on, and he could of been 5 seconds away from having a murdered Thai girl on his hands if the yank hasn't got involved, live by the sword, die by the sword.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Sounds like a drunken Bully who come unstuck to me, but without any firm facts of what actually went on in the altercation I will reserve judgment... No use harping on about stomping and hitting someone who is down as none of you know for sure thats what happened - yet?

 

I would have thought if the yank had stomped on the aussie guys head he would have done a Runner as soon as he heard the bloke had passed away, he didn't, he turned himself in - not the actions of a cold blooded killer really is it?

 

 

 

[Pattaya46]

9 minutes ago, lanng khao said:

Spot on, and he could of been 5 seconds away from having a murdered Thai girl on his hands if the yank hasn't got involved //

 

No idea where you got this idea from ??

Guys who first made reports on this "incident" (mainly on Pattaya-Addict) talked bout the Australian "brutalizing" the girl, holding her at her neck, but none of them ever said it was to the point to become dangerous, or to the point to kill her!

[lanng khao]

Sounds like a drunken Bully who come unstuck to me, but without any firm facts of what actually went on in the altercation I will reserve judgment... No use harping on about stomping and hitting someone who is down as none of you know for sure thats what happened - yet?
 
I would have thought if the yank had stomped on the aussie guys head he would have done a Runner as soon as he heard the bloke had passed away, he didn't, he turned himself in - not the actions of a cold blooded killer really is it?
 
 
 

Anyone who goes round throttling girls till there blue in the face deserves the consequences end of.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[NoshowJones]

6 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Then he should have been barred from the place!

Letting known trouble makers enter for more drink just doesn't make sense.

Who is going to bar him or stop him getting in? I have not noticed any doormen in Soi 6, unlike Walking Street and other similar places.

[Tony125]

37 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

The use of violence as a matter of fact cannot be condoned. There  is most likely plenty of fault to go around based on what is currently known.

 

-If the deceased was a known trouble maker and was drunk- he should have been bared from entering and at the least cut off from further alcohol- in the West, the  bar would be cited and possibly sued for damages.

 

-If the deceased did indeed assault the waitress-where was the bar manager and/or security . It is their job to protect their patrons and employees from unruly customers.

 

-Sine there was an assault in progress (deceased vs waitress) a bystander- the American- has a right to intervene to stop the assault. However, only reasonable force can be employed.  If Mr. Polanco was defending himself because the deceased threw a punch at him- once the deceased went down- the American had to stop his action right there.  If he did-and the witnesses and other evidence backed him up- self defense or possibly involuntary manslaughter (no intent to kill)-  Time served-fine-deported and blacklisted. 

 

However, If the American started kicking while the deceased was down-and the death occurred as a result- the charge is Manslaughter (which is 3rd Degree murder) and a guilty verdict  will result in about 10 years  (out in 5  or less)

 

The coroner's/hospital report is the final key most likely (as the witness statements seem contradictory). The extent of injury will determine what type of force was used.

 

Would I have intervened if I was there. I  honestly don't know. No one deserves to be assaulted and no one should have to die. There are just too many cases of  people getting drunk and out of control and a good reason to avoid  these type of places.

Don't think the American's story will hold up under scrutiny. The first reports from the hospital said the Austrailian died from extensive "sustained " trauma to his head and face meaning not a single blow but multiple blows /kick to the face/head. Also reported the American was jailed for murder in the 90's. He's trying to make up (presumably) a story that will get him out of trouble. If he hit the guy once or even 5 times after the Aussie grabbed the girl or started  stuff with him and he hit floor and died could be self-defense justifiable homicide or worst case manslaughter but if he continued to beat kick him after he was down and unconscious that's minimum manslaughter or murder. You can only use enough force to stop an attack ,once unconscious he was no longer a threat. Can't continue to asualt the person when he is ko'd and no longer a threat.

[Russell17au]

It has been reported on ninenews.com.au that the american has killed before.

Court documents from the US state of Florida have revealed Mr Polanco was previously charged with second degree murder after the death of an 18-year-old student.

Mr Polanco confessed to killing the victim, Michael Cooper, after being paid $20 to look at a problem with his car.

"After questioning the defendant for an hour and ten minutes, the defendant confessed to the murder," the document said.

Mr Polanco's charges were later downgraded and he spent two years behind bars for manslaughter with a firearm.

There have been many so called witnesses giving different stories of what happened who can anyone believe?

[cornishcarlos]

1 minute ago, Tony125 said:

The first reports from the hospital said the Austrailian died from extensive "sustained " trauma to his head and face meaning not a single blow but multiple blows /kick to the face/head. Also reported the American was jailed for murder in the 90's.

 

The reports weren't from the hospital, there was never any doctors statement confirming those injuries...

Just because he was convicted, for manslaughter btw not murder, doesn't make him automatically guilty...

[NoshowJones]

5 hours ago, dotpoom said:

"He admitted that he hit him three to four times but it was self-defence."

     Whatever it was it was not "self defence"......... in defence of another ....maybe......but not self defence.    The attacker was not being attacked himself?

If anyone physically attacked me and I put him down, I would make sure he was unable to get back up for my own protection even if it meant kicking him in the face, my own protection must come first. So it could be that it was self defence, but definitely not if he was kicked multiple times while unconscious.

[maccastime]

Reports on tv in Aus state this Yank has killed before in America. Should not have been allowed to travel. I bet he wouldn’t get into Canada??

[Tony125]

Just now, maccastime said:

Reports on tv in Aus state this Yank has killed before in America. Should not have been allowed to travel. I bet he wouldn’t get into Canada??

Can't get into Canada  with even a drunk driving conviction  In USA.

 

[tryasimight]

4 hours ago, HLover said:

Paid my bill and went upstairs.

Apparently that's where his mate was at the time. 

[farcanell]

37 minutes ago, wandasloan said:

 

He was convicted of second degree manslaughter with a gun but did not serve any time for it. Long story but it's available, although only for people lucky enough to have access to the internet.

 

 

That’s a different story to the one I read on the internet thingy.... gee hey... how easy is it to spread false information, using the internet thingy?

 

he was convicted of second degree murder... 12 years

downgraded to manslaughter with a gun... two years time served and five years probation.

 

[NoshowJones]

5 hours ago, dotpoom said:

"He admitted that he hit him three to four times but it was self-defence."

     Whatever it was it was not "self defence"......... in defence of another ....maybe......but not self defence.    The attacker was not being attacked himself?

 In my opinion, the attacker could have been acting in self defence if it is true that he hit, or kicked 

him "three to four times". The attacker has to make sure he is not attacked a second time.

[Russell17au]

What story and what witnesses do we believe?

The first story by witnesses stated that the American and some friends were in the bar and there was an altercation between him and the Australian and the American punched the Australian in the face and while the Australian was on the floor the American kicked and stomped on the Australians head while his mates took photos.

Now the last story is that the Australian was "strangling" a bar girl and the American stepped in and only hit the Australian once and the Australian fell and hit his head.

What is the true story?

What group of witnesses are telling the truth?

[tryasimight]

3 hours ago, sanemax said:

She was a prostitute in a girly bar and hes was a drunken customer .

I would not be in those kinds of bars anyway , but, if I were , I would not get involved and leave the bar .

   At a stretch, I may have tried to mediate between the two , 

There's always one....... Fair chance you would be in the morgue as well. 

Edited February 13, 2018 by tryasimight