Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[billd766]

12 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

Off topic but still one of the funniest comedies ever made.....

 

 

I just gave you an off topic like.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Surely democracy only has a bad name to those that support it solely when it produces the result that they desired.

There's always the army or the Queen to intervene. ?

[billd766]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

TheGuardian probably has more right to make that claim than you do.

 

 

 

On what grounds?

 

It certainly doesn't speak for me or many of my friends though Grouse believes that it speaks for him.

 

OTOH neither the Mirror, Express, Mail or the Sun speak for me either

[Chelseafan]

The papers are all full of shit.

 

Jim Hacker : "The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country; the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; the Financial Times is read by people who own the country; the Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country, and the Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.

Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun?

Bernard: Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits.

 

Sorry just had to get that off my chest. Carry on.

 

[7by7]

11 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

Sort of. Merkel  was very keen for other member states, including Britain to take their fare share of the 1m immigrants coming into Germany. The issue was  they were then free to move to other member states once they were given their papers.

 

 

Yes, Merkel was, naturally if you think about it, keen for other member states to take what she conceived to be their fair share of refugees. Whether the UK has done so depends on who you believe; for example the government says we have, Oxfam says we haven't. But any such agreement is voluntary; it does not mean the EU has any control over non EEA national immigration to the UK, or any other member state.

 

"Free to move to other member states once they were given their papers." The reality is more complicated than your simple statement. I'll summarise as best I can.

 

Nationals of EEA member states are free to move to other member states, either temporarily as tourists or for longer in order to exercise an economic treaty right as explained earlier. Non EEA nationals resident, temporarily or permanently, in a member sate are not; they require the appropriate entry clearance. Yes, entry clearance, including asylum, issued by one Schengen state is valid for all Schengen states; but the UK is not a Schengen state. Non EEA nationals resident in other EEA states need the appropriate entry clearance to enter the UK, as do non EEA nationals resident in the UK who wish to enter other EEA states.

 

Of course, if the non EEA national spouse or other qualifying family member of an EEA national is travelling with or to join their EEA national family member to a member state other than that of which the EEA national is a citizen, unless Surinder Singh applies,  this entry clearance is, or should be, easy to obtain and free. But how many asylum seekers, refugees, economic migrants or whatever you wish to call them are spouses or qualifying family members of an EEA national? None; because if they were then they could legally obtain entry clearance in order to live with that family member!

[nontabury]

On 6/8/2018 at 2:53 PM, tebee said:

Yes, that is exactly what we get if we do leave without an agreement.

 

But no sensible politician wants this as they know the chos it will cause will make their party unelectable for the next generation.

 

We might still get it.....

 

But if it's such a good option why   has the gove spent the last 2 years trying to negotiate something better ?

That’s how you might read it from your home in France, thankfully the British people do not agree with you. You may not have read this week, but  a prominent Labour supporter of the remain campaign,has come out and publically declared that in her opinion, support for Brexit has in Fact increased. Allthough to be fair, I think she was speaking about the general public, and not those in the establishment. Who would rather-

 

[7by7]

12 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

13 hours ago, 7by7 said:

I don't know exactly how many UKVI and Border Force officers are stationed in Calais, so I'll take your figure of 400. But are you sure they all work 24/7? Don't any of them ever sleep?

Latest estimates from 2017 put the figure anywhere between 700 and 2500.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/23/calais-refugees-year-after-razing-of-camp

 

Most of these are economic migrants.

 

"But, like aright and dick dastardly, you have failed to answer the simple question: if getting into the UK illegally is as easy as you all claim, why are there so many people camped around Calais, and other channel ports, who have failed time and time again to so do? "

 

And how many have got though the net without being detected, quite a few I would expect. Not every truck coming in is searched.

 

 

You have obviously misunderstood my post; especially the part you quoted!

 

I suggest you read it again, then maybe you can answer the question others have repeatedly dodged!

 

Before you, like others have, try to accuse me of believing there are no illegal immigrants in the UK: as I have repeatedly stated, I don't.

[Chelseafan]

Just now, 7by7 said:

 

You have obviously misunderstood my post; especially the part you quoted!

 

I suggest you read it again, then maybe you can answer the question others have repeatedly dodged!

 

Before you, like others have, try to accuse me of believing there are no illegal immigrants in the UK: as I have repeatedly stated, I don't.

I accused you of nothing. I understood your post. I was merely pointing out the reality that we really don't know how many illegals are coming in because we cannot check every vehicle at every port. I'll surmise (and I don't have any fact to back me up) that if One in 5 vehicles are checked then an immigrant has an 80% chance of getting through undetected and I would also surmise that the smarter immigrants arn't in Calais, they are distributed around Europe where there are better opportunities for them to get on vehicles. Calais is just one part of it.

 

 

[The Renegade]

Quote

British Prime Minister Theresa May said on Saturday she hoped lawmakers would recognize the importance of passing legislation next week which will end Britain’s membership of the European Union.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-may/british-pm-may-says-hopes-uk-lawmakers-will-not-block-eu-exit-laws-idUSKCN1J50ZP

 

Considering that the Commons voted overwhelming in January 2016 to trigger Article 50. if they now vote against.

 

Quote

MPs have voted by a majority of 384 to allow Prime Minister Theresa May to get Brexit negotiations under way.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-38833883

 

 If they now vote against. It would be a great excuse to purge all the 2 faced, lying, deceitful runts and show all Politicians, from every Party that the UK is changing and they better get with the programme.

[The Renegade]

11 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

I was merely pointing out the reality that we really don't know how many illegals are coming in because we cannot check every vehicle at every port. I'll surmise (and I don't have any fact to back me up)

You have no facts to back you up because to put it simply, there are no facts to back you up.

 

This might help

 

Quote

In 2009 an academic study, relied on by the Home Office, estimated the figure to be between 417,000 and 863,000.

 

In 2010 the campaign group Migration Watch said it was closer to 1.1 million.

 

These are the most recent available estimates but how do illegal migrants get here and how do they evade detection?

How did '' Victor '' manage to get work in the UK ?

 

Quote

You find somebody who is British or [an] EU citizen and encourage them to help you, and we use their documents, photocopies, which would have our photographs on."

 

He says the other person is "selling their identity" to him.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-34329782

[The Renegade]

Another poll, if they are to be believed.

 

Quote

However, the public remain unmoved on whether or not to have a new referendum. Asked if there should be another in-out referendum on the final deal, 38% said there should be, while 48% said there should not be.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/fewer-leave-voters-back-tories-handling-of-brexit-poll

 

Our resident remainers will not be happy. It is in the Guardian so it must be true ??

[7by7]

6 hours ago, transam said:

The last I heard the UK had around 1,000,000 foreigners "lost" in the UK, smuggled in, dodgy visas etc. The UK now has 30 immigration police stations dotted around the country to  try and catch them and their "cash in hand" employers. They even work to catch "bogus" colleges supplying paperwork to foreigners for visa purposes. Those who come into the UK on these visas can work legally for 20 hours a week, but guess what, many work full time cash in hand with college attendance sorted for a "fee"...  

 

You really should watch a few fly on the wall TV programs showing what immigration police have to deal with..."UK Border Force" is a good starter...

 

The figure of those 'lost' as you put it varies from 500,000 to over 1 million; depending on one's source. Ever since the UK abandoned passport checks on those leaving the UK in 1998 this number has been steadily increasing; It is not a sudden influx as you are trying to claim.

 

In the last few years the government has made attempts to reduce this number, for example in 2015 starting random checks on the passports of those leaving the UK.

 

Since 1997 it has been an offence for an employer to knowingly employ a person who was not legally entitled to work in the UK or who was working for more hours per week than their leave allowed. This was tightened up in 2014 and again in 2016. It is now an offence to employ someone whom the employer knew or had ‘reasonable cause to believe’ didn’t have the right to work in the UK. Which is why n ow every person applying for a job in the UK has to satisfy their potential employer that they have the right to work in the UK; either because they are a British or, at present, an EEA national or because their LTE or LTR allows them to.

 

Not every employer complies, but the penalties for employing illegal workers are harsh: a fine of up to £20,000 per illegal worker plus a possible 5 year prison sentence. 

 

Yes, there used to be a widespread racket in bogus colleges sponsoring bogus students; not anymore. I can't recall the exact date the rules changed, but now in order to obtain a UK Tier 4 student visa the applicant must, amongst other requirements,  have been accepted on a recognised course by a UK government licensed sponsor. If they haven't been, then they wont get their student visa even if all the other requirements are met..

 

You really should try and keep up to date; but as you appear to be relying for your information on a TV programme first broadcast in the UK 10 years ago, it is not surprising that you are not!

[aright]

13 hours ago, Chelseafan said:

"But, like aright and dick dastardly, you have failed to answer the simple question: if getting into the UK illegally is as easy as you all claim, why are there so many people camped around Calais, and other channel ports, who have failed time and time again to so do? "

 

And how many have got though the net without being detected, quite a few I would expect. Not every truck coming in is searched.

 

According to a Sky report this morning "Sophy Ridge on Sunday" only 2% of trucks are inspected at Dover .

I believe potential immigrants at Calais are there because they through word of mouth or the reports from successful stowaways or desperation believe they can get to the UK.     Lets reverse your question:-

If the border wall is as solid and non porous as you and others  suggest why do so many people bother camping around a wall which they have very little hope of penetrating? 

[adammike]

9 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Are our resident remainers putting their money where their mouth is ?

 

Flights booked for the great peoples day on 23 June ?

 

Will the Liberal Lefties and progressives give us an ample demonstration that they are the exact opposite of what they claim to be ?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/05/march-brexiters-afraid-remain-peoples-will-vote

 

The Guardian, with a readership of less than 150,000 and London centric thinks it speaks for the whole UK.

 

You forget we are on that interweb thingymajig.most newspaper sales of their print editions have collapsed,the mail claims to be the most read paper online,also the guardian is still free to read online.The mail gets a new editor in November he currently edit's the mail on Sunday and he's a remainer the opinion in other papers is he's there to de-toxify the rag.

[7by7]

38 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

I accused you of nothing. I understood your post. I was merely pointing out the reality that we really don't know how many illegals are coming in because we cannot check every vehicle at every port. I'll surmise (and I don't have any fact to back me up) that if One in 5 vehicles are checked then an immigrant has an 80% chance of getting through undetected and I would also surmise that the smarter immigrants arn't in Calais, they are distributed around Europe where there are better opportunities for them to get on vehicles. Calais is just one part of it.

 

 

 Again, you have not understood what I wrote. I did not say you had accused me of anything; I said before you do!

 

The reason why it is obvious that you failed to understand the post you first quoted is because I was talking about Transam's figure of 400 UK Border Force officers employed at Calais, and you 'corrected 'that figure as being too low for the number of migrants wanting and/or attempting to enter the UK there!

 

It is perfectly possible that people attempting to enter the UK via the tunnel or channel ports enter a lorry or other vehicle well before arrival at the French or Belgian or wherever exit port; but it is at these exit ports that the vehicles are stopped and searched.

 

I, too, don't know how many vehicles are stopped and searched before entering the UK, either by UK Border Force on leaving the continent or by HMRC on arrival in the UK; but your 80% chance surmise assumes that every lorry has a stash of illegals inside. Are you really accusing every single lorry driver who enters the UK, including British ones, of being involved in people smuggling?

 

Most are not, they are honest, not criminals and so comply with the requirement that they check their vehicles and take all reasonable care to ensure illegal migrants have not hidden themselves within or underneath it. So your 80% chance only applies to the small minority of drivers willing to take the risk of being caught; a fine of up to £2000 per illegal migrant found in their vehicle.

 

BTW, still no answer to the question originally asked!

 

[ivor bigun]

I just read on here that 150000 people read the Guardian .that many? Wonder how many of those put money in their begging bowl?

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[adammike]

1 hour ago, nontabury said:

That’s how you might read it from your home in France, thankfully the British people do not agree with you. You may not have read this week, but  a prominent Labour supporter of the remain campaign,has come out and publically declared that in her opinion, support for Brexit has in Fact increased. Allthough to be fair, I think she was speaking about the general public, and not those in the establishment. Who would rather-

 

The English trawler owner/captain who had the biggest fish quota in the UK fishing fleet sold it to a Dutch ship ,and became what is known as a slipper captain because he sits at home in his slippers while another does the fishing.

[ivor bigun]

I know from experiance that if you report an illegal nothing is done.When i was working in the UK one day a guy came for a job gave his name etc and one of the girls in the office happened to be passing and recognised him and said "you worked here a year ago under another name. He ran off the police were called .sorry you have to phone immegration.not us .they did that .sorry nobody can come .. that was it no wonder we have so many illegals with false names false NI numbers etc .no one does f all about it.

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[adammike]

8 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Why do you read them then ?

 

Still, you read the Guardian and the farcically named Independent, so I suppose comics must be your thing

They are just a click away.wrx.zen.co.uk.

[7by7]

14 minutes ago, aright said:

According to a Sky report this morning "Sophy Ridge on Sunday" only 2% of trucks are inspected at Dover .

See my post in reply to chelseafan above for my comments on this.

 

14 minutes ago, aright said:

I believe potential immigrants at Calais are there because they through word of mouth or the reports from successful stowaways or desperation believe they can get to the UK.     Lets reverse your question:-

If the border wall is as solid and non porous as you and others  suggest why do so many people bother camping around a wall which they have very little hope of penetrating? 

At last, an answer!

 

You are probably correct; they do believe that. Just as they believe that once in the UK they will be given a nice house and a big bag of cash.  Beliefs shared by many of those who voted for Brexit!

 

But they are wrong. As you now admit; whilst some succeed by one means or another, most have little hope of penetrating the 'wall' and getting to the UK; that is why they are still on the French side of the Channel.

 

They are also wrong about the house and cash.

[7by7]

8 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

I know from experiance that if you report an illegal nothing is done.When i was working in the UK one day a guy came for a job gave his name etc and one of the girls in the office happened to be passing and recognised him and said "you worked here a year ago under another name. He ran off the police were called .sorry you have to phone immegration.not us .they did that .sorry nobody can come .. that was it no wonder we have so many illegals with false names false NI numbers etc .no one does f all about it.

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When was this?

 

As previously stated, both the law and the enforcement of the law have been considerably tightened up over the last decade; particularly since 2010 when the Tory/LibDem coalition took over from Labour. Even more so in the last 5 years with the Tories declared intent to create a hostile environment for illegal immigrants in the UK. Now

• Private landlords are required to check the immigration status of their tenants, under a rule known as "right to rent,"
• The NHS also has to carry out checks as part of its legal duty to identify and charge patients who don't qualify for free medical care for their treatment,
• The Home Office has been given greater powers to investigate and prevent "sham marriages,"
• The driving licence authority has been given powers to restrict migrants' access to licences,
• Banks and building societies must conduct checks of the immigration status of their customers,
• Employers have to check their workers' immigration status.

Landlords, banks and employers can all face large fines and even prison if they do not carry out these checks.

 

[ivor bigun]

When was this?
 
As previously stated, both the law and the enforcement of the law have been considerably tightened up over the last decade; particularly since 2010 when the Tory/LibDem coalition took over from Labour. Even more so in the last 5 years with the Tories declared intent to create a hostile environment for illegal immigrants in the UK. Now

• Private landlords are required to check the immigration status of their tenants, under a rule known as "right to rent,"
• The NHS also has to carry out checks as part of its legal duty to identify and charge patients who don't qualify for free medical care for their treatment,
• The Home Office has been given greater powers to investigate and prevent "sham marriages,"
• The driving licence authority has been given powers to restrict migrants' access to licences,
• Banks and building societies must conduct checks of the immigration status of their customers,
• Employers have to check their workers' immigration status.

Landlords, banks and employers can all face large fines and even prison if they do not carry out these checks.
 

Yea right.carry on believing.i am not even going to bother telling you how easy it is to get around most of these " laws"

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[7by7]

6 minutes ago, ivor bigun said:

Yea right.carry on believing.i am not even going to bother telling you how easy it is to get around most of these " laws"

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 All laws can be got around; but just because there are some people who are criminals does not make criminals of everyone.

 

You are using one isolated incident to 'prove' that the UK immigration rules and enforcement of those rules are an unenforced shambles; and you refuse to even tell us when this incident occurred! Was it before or after 2010? 

 

 

[transam]

11 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

When was this?

 

As previously stated, both the law and the enforcement of the law have been considerably tightened up over the last decade; particularly since 2010 when the Tory/LibDem coalition took over from Labour. Even more so in the last 5 years with the Tories declared intent to create a hostile environment for illegal immigrants in the UK. Now

• Private landlords are required to check the immigration status of their tenants, under a rule known as "right to rent,"
• The NHS also has to carry out checks as part of its legal duty to identify and charge patients who don't qualify for free medical care for their treatment,
• The Home Office has been given greater powers to investigate and prevent "sham marriages,"
• The driving licence authority has been given powers to restrict migrants' access to licences,
• Banks and building societies must conduct checks of the immigration status of their customers,
• Employers have to check their workers' immigration status.

Landlords, banks and employers can all face large fines and even prison if they do not carry out these checks.

 

All you are doing is quoting the UK laws which you think have got them all scurrying back home but they are not and folk are employing them even with the 20,000 quid threat..

 

So if you think all the loop holes have been closed why are there still hundreds and thousands still in the UK. ?

 

How many EU folk are working cash in hand I wonder, paying no tax and insurance....

 

[aright]

34 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

See my post in reply to chelseafan above for my comments on this.

 

At last, an answer!

 

You are probably correct; they do believe that. Just as they believe that once in the UK they will be given a nice house and a big bag of cash.  Beliefs shared by many of those who voted for Brexit!

 

But they are wrong. As you now admit; whilst some succeed by one means or another, most have little hope of penetrating the 'wall' and getting to the UK; that is why they are still on the French side of the Channel.

 

They are also wrong about the house and cash.

For your rules to be effective some people have to obey them and some people have to enforce them. That doesn't happen often enough.

I don't think the potential immigrants at Calais think they are wrong, if they did surely they would turn around  and  try to establish a happy future in Europe...…..some of them do of course.

"At last an Answer" sorry...I was not trying to evade the question I have been out of the country for a few days. 

[7by7]

1 minute ago, transam said:

All you are doing is quoting the UK laws which you think have got them all scurrying back home but they are not and folk are employing them even with the 20,000 quid threat

 Yes, some people are still breaking the law and when caught are fined. I doubt you know of any who are though, seeing as you are 6,000 miles away and basing your opinions on information from an old TV programme which is at least 10 years out of date!

 

But on the remote possibility that you do, will you do your civic duty?  Report an immigration crime.

 

5 minutes ago, transam said:

So if you think all the loop holes have been closed why are there still hundreds and thousands still in the UK. ?

Where have I said all the loopholes have been closed? I haven't. What I have done is list some of the measures taken over the last 10 years to prevent immigration crime. Unfortunately, criminals will always break the law, and some will always get away with it.

 

7 minutes ago, transam said:

 

How many EU folk are working cash in hand I wonder, paying no tax and insurance....

No idea; probably a similar percentage to those British citizens doing exactly the same! Where is you faux indignation for that? Or are you only indignant when foreigners break the law, not when Brits do?

[7by7]

9 minutes ago, aright said:

For your rules to be effective some people have to obey them and some people have to enforce them. That doesn't happen often enough.

Your evidence for wholesale breaking of the law and lack of enforcement of it being?

 

11 minutes ago, aright said:

I don't think the potential immigrants at Calais think they are wrong, if they did surely they would turn around  and  try to establish a happy future in Europe...…..some of them do of course.

I don't think they think they are wrong either, and have never said that they do. What I said was that they are wrong! 

 

12 minutes ago, aright said:

"At last an Answer" sorry...I was not trying to evade the question I have been out of the country for a few days. 

Fair enough; I, too, cannot read or post every day.

 

But, in my defence,  my remark was not addressed solely at you as others have definitely dodged the question.

[ivor bigun]

No idea; probably a similar percentage to those British citizens doing exactly the same! Where is you faux indignation for that? Or are you only indignant when foreigners break the law, not when Brits do?

Yes and the last thing Britain needs is thousands of scroungers from other countrys to join them.

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[transam]

3 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 Yes, some people are still breaking the law and when caught are fined. I doubt you know of any who are though, seeing as you are 6,000 miles away and basing your opinions on information from an old TV programme which is at least 10 years out of date!

 

But on the remote possibility that you do, will you do your civic duty?  Report an immigration crime.

 

Where have I said all the loopholes have been closed? I haven't. What I have done is list some of the measures taken over the last 10 years to prevent immigration crime. Unfortunately, criminals will always break the law, and some will always get away with it.

 

No idea; probably a similar percentage to those British citizens doing exactly the same! Where is you faux indignation for that? Or are you only indignant when foreigners break the law, not when Brits do?

Yes I did know of folk employing EU folk cash in hand..

We are not talking about naughty Brits, we are talking about foreign folk here. Your usual foreigner protection deviation...

 

 

[aright]