Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Grouse]

54 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Wellington bomber, Barns Wallis construction

Ah, thanks!

 

 

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Maybe you would like to kick off with British trade with the Nazis prior to the UK entering the War in 1939.

I genuinely don't know about that; please enlighten me?

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, oldhippy said:

Personally I don't hate successfull people, unless they owe their succes to dodgy dealings or inheritance.....

About your bricklayer / shelf stacker comment: do you think they should have equal voting rights as the Eton educated? Or perhaps voting rights based on the amount of tax paid?

That is a genuine conundrum. Of course the cat is already out of the bag so what to do? The main thing is hold on to representative democracy

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Or are we at a point where we feel it is acceptable for our inner truths to be laid bare? Should we all stay quiet for the sake of upsetting delicate sensibilities?

 

A journey to nowhere is most definitely to be found if keeping quiet about something troubling for fear of upsetting the status quo. Low brow and shallow? Most definitely. Unwarranted - that is another matter.

'Inner truths'? Give me a break.

[oldhippy]

4 hours ago, SheungWan said:

There is no doubt that accusations of intellectual shallowness have been consistently levelled at forum Brexiteers and certainly many have been richly deserved IMHO, but that doesn't let Remainers off the hook. Just look at the last few pages and we have had equally shabby hobby horses paraded in front of us on the Remainer side. Whether abject thinly-disguised anti-Americanism or rants against the upper classes for wealth and accents, its all there. Left-wing populism. Equally ugly and just journeys to nowhere. Don't feel obliged to take these sides.

QUOTE:

thinly-disguised anti-Americanism or rants against the upper classes for wealth and accents, its all there. Left-wing populism.

 

If the wealth is inherited - that is what we were talking about - it is not left wing populism, it is just common sense.

And the accent? It is just a way to display "higher" status in the British cast system.

Anti-Americanism? I did not see that.

[Different]

Cold blooded English admit making mistake! that is progress anyway cant the Queen do something about it or the God damn constitution.

[SheungWan]

54 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

QUOTE:

thinly-disguised anti-Americanism or rants against the upper classes for wealth and accents, its all there. Left-wing populism.

 

If the wealth is inherited - that is what we were talking about - it is not left wing populism, it is just common sense.

And the accent? It is just a way to display "higher" status in the British cast system.

Anti-Americanism? I did not see that.

'it is not left wing populism, it is just common sense.' , and the nonsense continues with absolutely none of this having the slightest relevance to Brexit, but rather giving the game away that for some the Brexit issue is just a stalking horse for a Hard Left go at the Government. Odd given that the Hard Left is pro-Brexit. No wonder Labour is in as big a shambles as the Tories. Sorry, bigger.

[SheungWan]

39 minutes ago, Different said:

Cold blooded English admit making mistake! that is progress anyway cant the Queen do something about it or the God damn constitution.

The Queen is somewhat busy with the upcoming nuptials.

[oldhippy]

51 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

'it is not left wing populism, it is just common sense.' , and the nonsense continues with absolutely none of this having the slightest relevance to Brexit, but rather giving the game away that for some the Brexit issue is just a stalking horse for a Hard Left go at the Government. Odd given that the Hard Left is pro-Brexit. No wonder Labour is in as big a shambles as the Tories. Sorry, bigger.

QUOTE:

with absolutely none of this having the slightest relevance to Brexit,

What I said was a reaction to another poster's comments about posh and bricklayers.

 

QUOTE:

Brexit issue is just a stalking horse for a Hard Left go at the Government.

No wonder Labour is in as big a shambles as the Tories. Sorry, bigger.

Now you contradict yourself. I assume that you consider present Labour as Hard Left. So how can Brexit be  used as a go at the Tory government?

 

I read some other posts of you, maybe you are a Trotskyist who turned into a Blairist?

 

 

[aright]

8 hours ago, SheungWan said:

There is no doubt that accusations of intellectual shallowness have been consistently levelled at forum Brexiteers and certainly many have been richly deserved IMHO, but that doesn't let Remainers off the hook. Just look at the last few pages and we have had equally shabby hobby horses paraded in front of us on the Remainer side. Whether abject thinly-disguised anti-Americanism or rants against the upper classes for wealth and accents, its all there. Left-wing populism. Equally ugly and just journeys to nowhere. Don't feel obliged to take these sides.

You make a very good point .I have been away for a few days and today when I played post catch up I saw how wretched the last few pages have been.

Anyone who gets involved in contributions on forums like this can rightfully expect their views be praised by some and criticised by others.... but balanced criticism please.

Involvement should not be seen as unbridled licence to use gratuitous, toxic insults for those who want to pursue a covert agenda under the cover of so called  "analysis"

General fun bantering is perfectly acceptable, and this Forum is much more interesting, if we have opinionated posters; but insulting behaviour drives many away. 

[tebee]

Brexit Planning Process

 

2016: We have a plan 
2017: We have many plans
2018: We have no plan

2019: It's your fault we didn't have a plan.

[tomacht8]

It's interesting, the brexiters are all against an more united europe.

The horror superstate, where nobody can directly vote the leaders.
But who voted directly for TM as PM to lead the UK now?

39 minutes ago, tebee said:

Brexit Planning Process

 

2016: We have a plan 
2017: We have many plans
2018: We have no plan

2019: It's your fault we didn't have a plan.

There was no plan at any time.

 

 

[Ahab]

19 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Did the supplies that the US sent to the Nazi's also help to keep our country free of German occupation?  No, and it did help them to process the Jews that they were killing, great war effort Americans, so glad you were on board before you were threatened.

I was not aware that the US government included Nazi Germany into the lend lease program, thank you so much for the information. 

 

On a serious note, after the carnage of WWI the American population wanted nothing to do with involvement in another war on the European continent. It took the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and Germany declaring war on the US to prompt the US into WWII. Perhaps if European countries (past and present) took it's defense seriously the US would not have to be involved in every war and genocide that Europeans have decided to start.

 

I think this has strayed slightly off topic from Brexit.

[The Renegade]

It should be quite clear to anyone, including a blind man that the EU is doing all it can to prevent Brexit.

 

According to the Torygraph, Theresa May has now admitted that her 2 options for an EU Customs deal are totally unworkable. 

 

Quote

Theresa May has admitted to Conservative MPs that Brexit negotiations are at an impasse because neither of her current options for a customs deal with the EU will work.

Of course they will not work, half a fudge to remain joined at the hip with the EU is never going to work, the EU still has you by the short & curlies.

 

It is now time to tell the EU that the UK is leaving completely on March 2019 and WTO rules will apply immediately. No stupid extension, no divorce money, come back and talk to us when you are ready to talk trade.

 

But what about the Irish Border !! What about it ? The EU brought up the Irish Border to protect their precious Single Market. You want to protect your Single Market, then you build, fund and man the Irish Border.

 

There comes a time when negotiations pass their sell by date and firm action is required.

[Kieran00001]

21 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I was not aware that the US government included Nazi Germany into the lend lease program, thank you so much for the information. 

 

On a serious note, after the carnage of WWI the American population wanted nothing to do with involvement in another war on the European continent. It took the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and Germany declaring war on the US to prompt the US into WWII. Perhaps if European countries (past and present) took it's defense seriously the US would not have to be involved in every war and genocide that Europeans have decided to start.

 

I think this has strayed slightly off topic from Brexit.

 

They were not in the lend lease program but they were still supplied by the Americans, they built them Focke-Wulf's and helped perfect the V-bomb for them, for instance.

 

The American public may have not wanted anything to do with another war, but the American corps sure did.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

 

Well I hope we can find the exit door posthaste, while there is still an EU to leave. I’m sure everyone is aware that Italy’s two main Eurosceptic parties, Five Star and League, appear to be on the verge of forming a coalition after post-election negotiations, and are according to an article in the Times yesterday, threatening to repatriate 500,000 illegal migrants. A coalition between the two would be the first time that a founding member of the EU is led by a populist Eurosceptic administration, and will send Italy towards an unavoidable head on collision with Brussels

 

'Populist' has been used recently by some leavers as a pejorative, when in reality, it simply describes a political party whose policies are in tune with those of the electorate; the liberal elite use it as an insult towards any electorate that they deem to be less intelligent than themselves (having voted differently) but the people are turning a deaf ear to any criticism, and the Hungarians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and Austrians are all voting to stop the madness of mass migration, which is putting them on a very similar collision course as Italy.

 

I’m sure Lilly Allen, Geldof, Bono, JK Rowling and that inanely grinning crisp salesman Lineker will be be beside themselves with angst , but the Union is cracking at the seams, and with Italy we witness the very foundations crumbling, it’s over, the Union is doomed

[oldhippy]

14 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

 

Well I hope we can find the exit door posthaste, while there is still an EU to leave. I’m sure everyone is aware that Italy’s two main Eurosceptic parties, Five Star and League, appear to be on the verge of forming a coalition after post-election negotiations, and are according to an article in the Times yesterday, threatening to repatriate 500,000 illegal migrants. A coalition between the two would be the first time that a founding member of the EU is led by a populist Eurosceptic administration, and will send Italy towards an unavoidable head on collision with Brussels

 

'Populist' has been used recently by some leavers as a pejorative, when in reality, it simply describes a political party whose policies are in tune with those of the electorate; the liberal elite use it as an insult towards any electorate that they deem to be less intelligent than themselves (having voted differently) but the people are turning a deaf ear to any criticism, and the Hungarians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks and Austrians are all voting to stop the madness of mass migration, which is putting them on a very similar collision course as Italy.

 

I’m sure Lilly Allen, Geldof, Bono, JK Rowling and that inanely grinning crisp salesman Lineker will be be beside themselves with angst , but the Union is cracking at the seams, and with Italy we witness the very foundations crumbling, it’s over, the Union is doomed

So Brexit and anti EU feelings all simply come down to wanting to send back the refugees?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

11 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

So Brexit and anti EU feelings all simply come down to wanting to send back the refugees?

If you read my comment again you will notice that I said “illegal migrants” regarding Italy, and in the case of Austria and the Visegrad group, “the madness of mass migration”  ….. I did not mention refugees; you did that (*∆°)

[RuamRudy]

5 hours ago, aright said:

You make a very good point .I have been away for a few days and today when I played post catch up I saw how wretched the last few pages have been.

Anyone who gets involved in contributions on forums like this can rightfully expect their views be praised by some and criticised by others.... but balanced criticism please.

Involvement should not be seen as unbridled licence to use gratuitous, toxic insults for those who want to pursue a covert agenda under the cover of so called  "analysis"

General fun bantering is perfectly acceptable, and this Forum is much more interesting, if we have opinionated posters; but insulting behaviour drives many away. 

I cannot think of any posts or contributors who have insulted fellow posters. Those who place themselves in the glare of the media are a different matter, but I hardly think that JRM is scanning the pages of TV, fervently trying to guage the feeling of the expat community towards him. 

 

There are some who clearly hit their keyboards with greater force than others when they post their replies, but other than being some posts being more direct and forthright, insults are either very subltle, I am very slow on the uptake, or they generally aren't aimed at other contributors.

[oldhippy]

5 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

If you read my comment again you will notice that I said “illegal migrants” regarding Italy, and in the case of Austria and the Visegrad group, “the madness of mass migration”  ….. I did not mention refugees; you did that (*∆°)

Too subtle for me!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

They were not in the lend lease program but they were still supplied by the Americans, they built them Focke-Wulf's and helped perfect the V-bomb for them, for instance.

 

The American public may have not wanted anything to do with another war, but the American corps sure did.

I have seen no evidence of American involvement with Focke Wulf or the V1 pilotless aircraft/"doodlebug" or V2 ballistic missile. However IBM was heavily involved in the Final Solution. 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/hitlers-willing-business-partners/303146/

 

But this is entirely off topic please stop the discussion on this Brexit thread.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

16 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Too subtle for me!

My apologies, I shall try to be more forthright. I just thought that everyone was aware of the difference between illegal migrants and refugees; of course, labelling illegal migrants as refugees, casts disparagement on the morality of others, whilst simultaneously elevating your own moral high ground, so, well done, a jolly good effort on your part might I say.

[RuamRudy]

26 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

If you read my comment again you will notice that I said “illegal migrants” regarding Italy, and in the case of Austria and the Visegrad group, “the madness of mass migration”  ….. I did not mention refugees; you did that (*∆°)

In your mind, what is the answer to the illegal immigrant problem? I agree with you that they are a hugely destabilising and divisive issue across Europe, but do we simply put armed guards on the beaches to prevent them coming ashore? Do we sink their boats en-route? Do we have no responsiblity to help them, what with the west having been complicit in destabilising many of the regions from which they come?

 

I don't want to see Little Kabuls popping up all over the UK - but we cannot simply close the door on them and pretend that the problem is somebody else's.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by RuamRudy

[oldhippy]

2 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

My apologies, I shall try to be more forthright. I just thought that everyone was aware of the difference between illegal migrants and refugees; of course, labelling illegal migrants as refugees, casts disparagement on the morality of others, whilst simultaneously elevating your own moral high ground, so, well done, a jolly good effort on your part might I say.

How is running away from hunger and disease any different from running away from war? They are both killers.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

30 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

In your mind, what is the answer to the illegal immigrant problem? I agree with you that they are a hugely destabilising and divisive issue across Europe, but do we simply put armed guards on the beaches to prevent them coming ashore? Do we sink their boats en-route? Do we have no responsiblity to help them, what with the west having been complicit in destabilising many of the regions from which they come?

 

I don't want to see Little Kabuls popping up all over the UK - but we cannot simply close the door on them and pretend that the problem is somebody else's.

 

 

Thank’s, just what I needed, a simple, easy question (*∆*)

 

I have no answer, and any solutions I can think of are all retrospective, rendering them irrelevant. I believe that Europe was insufficiently prepared for the numbers that flooded in, the momentum with which the numbers exploded, and were completely unprepared to separate genuine refugees from the hundreds of thousands of economic migrants that would take advantage of the situation.

 

I don't think anyone knows the answer, I was just pointing out that Austria and the Visegrad group are not prepared to allow mass migration into their countries. It is their answer, not mine, it is theirs, and it will inevitably clash with EU policy. I believe that Italy is set on this same path, which will destabilise the whole EU policy on migration.

 

Sorry, I can't give an answer, but it was a bit of a toughie to start the day

[Grouse]

Let's clear up a few issues.

 

Migrants from Africa and ME tend to be either asylum seekers or economic migrants 

 

Asylum seekers become refugees once their application is approved. Genuine refugees deserve our help

 

Economic migrants are also welcome if they bring skills that are required by the economy

 

Problems occur when there are insufficient resources to check everybody in real time. 

 

The border force series recommended by Transam is an excellent source 

 

Of course economic migration is a much smaller problem for the U.K. Being an island

 

EU migration to the U.K. is now reversing direction and government has additional levers that can be pulled to reduce the number of migrants.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Grouse

[The Renegade]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

EU migration to the U.K. is now reversing direction and government has additional levers that can be pulled to reduce the number of migrants.

Very few levers

 

Quote

The government is to pay hundreds of thousands of pounds to European rough sleepers who were illegally detained and deported.

Figures obtained by the BBC reveal that in the year to May 2017, 698 homeless EU nationals were targeted and removed from the country.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44093868

 

There is something very awry when you cannot deport rough sleepers without having court cases and compensation claims.

 

 

[Grouse]

The Northern League and the Five Star Movement are poles apart! 

 

The Northern League has its roots in the 13th century Lombard League. They want a federalist Italy and decentralised powers. They are EU sceptics but do not wish to leave the EU for economic reasons 

 

The Five Star Movement are verging on anarchism; their antiestablishment leanings being so extreme. They want huge investments and minimum income for all. They are also Eursceptic but don't want to leave the EU for obvious economic reasons.

 

Both want to stop immigration, but this is easier said than done. Arrivals must IMHO be held until they are approved as refugees or desirable economic migrants. The others have to be returned 

 

Certainly difficult times for Brussels and I can see some changes coming

 

I am appalled at the schadenfreude expressed by certain posters who actually wish harm to the EU if that would help their Brexit case. Shameful.

[Grouse]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Very few levers

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44093868

 

There is something very awry when you cannot deport rough sleepers without having court cases and compensation claims.

 

 

130,000 is small?

 

https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

 

I agree about rough sleepers, they should be sent to the workhouse?

 

Problem is that our most excellent "government" doesn't use the levers available to it. E.g. If you have no job after 3 months you can be legally deported.

 

"The EU law is clear and very robust, but the policy was a very flimsy attempt to misuse the law, simply to meet immigration targets," she said.

"I think it is highly unlikely, particularly given that people were targeted who were working, that this policy has done anything except cost significant amounts of public money."

Edited May 15, 2018 by Grouse

[transam]

Looks like one reason many are bailing out of the UK is that employers of naughty folk are being fined 20,000 quid for EACH naughty person, so finding work maybe a ploblem....

A really good step...