Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[tebee]

15 hours ago, SheungWan said:

There is no doubt that accusations of intellectual shallowness have been consistently levelled at forum Brexiteers and certainly many have been richly deserved IMHO, but that doesn't let Remainers off the hook. Just look at the last few pages and we have had equally shabby hobby horses paraded in front of us on the Remainer side. Whether abject thinly-disguised anti-Americanism or rants against the upper classes for wealth and accents, its all there. Left-wing populism. Equally ugly and just journeys to nowhere. Don't feel obliged to take these sides.

Second point first, there have been equally shabby hobby horses from the leave side on here. Both sides have been trying to score points about things that are at best tangential to and mostly completely irrelevant to the point in hand. A few ad hominem remarks have crept in too.

 

Which brings me to your first point.  I don't consider the Brexiters in general to be stupid people, but they do in general, seem to  be less able to logically analyze the consequences of things. Brexit provided simple, but wrong answers to complex problems.

 

A prime example of this must be the leave video which contrasted the NHS now with the NHS after we have left the EU. The premise of this was that after all those pesky immigrants go away , there will be less queuing to access NHS services. But if you stop to think about this, there are more immigrants as a percentage of NHS staff than of the general population, so even if you could instantly get rid of them all there would be fewer NHS staff per customer after we did so. Also immigrants as a rule are younger and healthier than the general population and contribute more in taxes than they take out, so financially it would be worse off too.  

 

Now you don't have to be stupid to fall for a con trick, the secret is just to tell people what they want to hear. 

 

The next problem is we have put  these people in charge of the government. When you add in the fact that there now seems to be no consequences for politicians lying to the public, you just end up with the worst politicians - so is it any wonder these people have no solutions to when the problems start to get complicated?       

Edited May 15, 2018 by tebee

[tebee]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

Looks like one reason many are bailing out of the UK is that employers of naughty folk are being fined 20,000 quid for EACH naughty person, so finding work maybe a ploblem....

A really good step...

But this does not apply to EU citizen as they all have a right to work in the UK, it's only relevant to non-EU migrants.

[transam]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

But this does not apply to EU citizen as they all have a right to work in the UK, it's only relevant to non-EU migrants.

But it is reckoned there are 1,000,000 naughty folk earning dosh in the UK..Low-life from the EU are now in the UK doing their low-life stuff...More strain on the country dealing with them..Police, court and prison costs...

[Kieran00001]

13 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I have seen no evidence of American involvement with Focke Wulf or the V1 pilotless aircraft/"doodlebug" or V2 ballistic missile. However IBM was heavily involved in the Final Solution. 

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2001/04/hitlers-willing-business-partners/303146/

 

But this is entirely off topic please stop the discussion on this Brexit thread.

 

 

Ok, I'll make this the last on this.

 

 

The US company ITT bought C. Lorenz AG  in 1930, who owned a 25% share in Focke Wulf and also perfected the flying bomb.  In the 60's, ITT won $27 million in damages due to the Focke Wulf factory being bombed by the allies.  ITT also owned shares in the company that made radar equipment that helped the Nazi's locate and destroy allied submarines.

 

[HAKAPALITA]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

But it is reckoned there are 1,000,000 naughty folk earning dosh in the UK..Low-life from the EU are now in the UK doing their low-life stuff...More strain on the country dealing with them..Police, court and prison costs...

That will get your Snowflakes to melting point. the truth allways does for some reason.

[The Renegade]

Since this marathon of 409 pages was started by a Guardian opinion piece. That media outlet that is a solid supporter of Brexit abd totally non partisan.

 

It seems appropriate to bring to the table an up to date Guardian opinion piece.

 

Quote

Who now can doubt that Jeremy Corbyn wants a hard Brexit?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/14/jeremy-corbyn-wants-hard-brexit-labour

 

Jeremy Corbyn voted no in 1975 and he voted no in every single parliamentary vote on EU Treaties ever since.

 

Nice to see that you are finally getting the message that Labour are not the saviours that are going to stop Brexit.

 

Back to article after article about Blair & Mandelson.

[anon537687643]

The saviours ? Wrong term! They may or may not be the traitors or obstructionists


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[tebee]

16 minutes ago, transam said:

But it is reckoned there are 1,000,000 naughty folk earning dosh in the UK..Low-life from the EU are now in the UK doing their low-life stuff...More strain on the country dealing with them..Police, court and prison costs...

But my young Trans,  my point is the 20k fines only apply to employing people with no right to work in the UK. So no one is ever going to be fined for employing an EU citizen.  

[HAKAPALITA]

4 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

Ok, I'll make this the last on this.

 

 

The US company ITT bought C. Lorenz AG  in 1930, who owned a 25% share in Focke Wulf and also perfected the flying bomb.  In the 60's, ITT won $27 million in damages due to the Focke Wulf factory being bombed by the allies.  ITT also owned shares in the company that made radar equipment that helped the Nazi's locate and destroy allied submarines.

 

Lorenz is OK now, but 25 years ago their Navigation Equipment could not find anything for Autopilot accurately in the Med with its old 3 transmitter system, amazed if it found a Flotilla of Aircraft Carriers back then.

[tebee]

9 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Since this marathon of 409 pages was started by a Guardian opinion piece. That media outlet that is a solid supporter of Brexit abd totally non partisan.

 

It seems appropriate to bring to the table an up to date Guardian opinion piece.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/14/jeremy-corbyn-wants-hard-brexit-labour

 

Jeremy Corbyn voted no in 1975 and he voted no in every single parliamentary vote on EU Treaties ever since.

 

Nice to see that you are finally getting the message that Labour are not the saviours that are going to stop Brexit.

 

Back to article after article about Blair & Mandelson.

I've never been looking for JC to save us from Brexit - I'm looking for the inherent contradictions in Brexit to save us. No one can deliver any sort of sensible Brexit - the only one on offer is a hard Brexit that will wreck the economy. No sensible government is going to willingly give us that as they will be out of power for a generation.

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by tebee

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

No one can deliver any sort of sensible Brexit - the only one on offer is a hard Brexit that will wreck the economy.

It will wreck the economy ?

 

Of course it will, and a plague of locusts will descend consuming everything, brimstone and fire will thunder down from the sky, ebola and the black death will follow up to kill off any survivors.

 

Why are you worried about the economy ?

 

Wreck the economy, hyperbole. Will the UK's economy take a hit, most likely.

 

But let's not get carried away.

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

I've never been looking for JC to save us from Brexit - I'm looking for the inherent contradictions in Brexit to save us. No one can deliver any sort of sensible Brexit - the only one on offer is a hard Brexit that will wreck the economy. No sensible government is going to willingly give us that as they will be out of power for a generation.

 

I am sure I am stating the obvious here, but this is the reason for the ongoing demonisation of the left. The Tories need to paint Labour as being the worst possible outcome for the country, and as long as the gullible public keeps swallowing the propaganda, TM has leeway to keep fighting to keep the Tories together, no matter the cost to the country and its citizens.

 

The anti-semitism nonsense seems to have been dropped now that the local elections are over in England but no doubt it, or some other confected nonsense will appear again when the need arises.

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

It will wreck the economy ?

 

Of course it will, and a plague of locusts will descend consuming everything, brimstone and fire will thunder down from the sky, ebola and the black death will follow up to kill off any survivors.

 

Why are you worried about the economy ?

 

Wreck the economy, hyperbole. Will the UK's economy take a hit, most likely.

 

But let's not get carried away.

Is your confidence based on reassuring, credible analysis? That has been sorely missing to date, so it would be comforting to hear some expert words that don't paint a doomsday scenario for us.

[transam]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Is your confidence based on reassuring, credible analysis? That has been sorely missing to date, so it would be comforting to hear some expert words that don't paint a doomsday scenario for us.

So why/how did the UK bounce back after the Hitler thingy.....?

 

There were those in the UK that feared him and wanted to join the chap...

[tebee]

16 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

It will wreck the economy ?

 

Of course it will, and a plague of locusts will descend consuming everything, brimstone and fire will thunder down from the sky, ebola and the black death will follow up to kill off any survivors.

 

Why are you worried about the economy ?

 

Wreck the economy, hyperbole. Will the UK's economy take a hit, most likely.

 

But let's not get carried away.

According to the Government's own analysis hard brexit will result in a 7.7% reduction in GDP and up to 2 million more unemployed. 

 

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

 

 

We will for a start lose most of the car industry and most of the services we sell to the EU.

[Kieran00001]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

So why/how did the UK bounce back after the Hitler thingy.....?

 

There were those in the UK that feared him and wanted to join the chap...

 

 

It more crawled back than bounced.

 

[transam]

1 minute ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

It more crawled back than bounced.

 

Crawled back to one of the worlds best economies...?

 

How did the UK do that...?

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

According to the Government's own analysis hard brexit will result in a 7.7% reduction in GDP and up to 2 million more unemployed. 

Analysis is not fact. 

 

A 7.7% reduction in GDP is not a collapse of the UK economy.

 

A large number of those ( according to remainers ) will be EU Citizens returning home, so it will not be 2 million more unemployed.

 

Quote

We will for a start lose most of the car industry and most of the services we sell to the EU.

It would be prudent to await the outcome of any negotiations before making bold predictions.

 

Facts emerge after an event. Hyperbole emerges before an event happens.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

Crawled back to one of the worlds best economies...?

 

How did the UK do that...?

Loans from the US that they continued paying for the next 50 years.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Loans from the US that they continued paying for the next 50 years.

Did the UK pay the loans back and still became a world financial power...YES or NO....?

 

 

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Analysis is not fact. 

 

A 7.7% reduction in GDP is not a collapse of the UK economy.

 

A large number of those ( according to remainers ) will be EU Citizens returning home, so it will not be 2 million more unemployed.

 

It would be prudent to await the outcome of any negotiations before making bold predictions.

 

Facts emerge after an event. Hyperbole emerges before an event happens.

That seems a somewhat cavalier attitude to take, especially when considering the collective calibre of the minds that suggest we should be fearful.

 

I think, though, that you are accepting of the analysis - you are just saying that the effects won't hurt as much we fear, and that the pain will be worth it in the long run. Is that a fair intepretation of your position?

[transam]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

That seems a somewhat cavalier attitude to take, especially when considering the collective calibre of the minds that suggest we should be fearful.

 

I think, though, that you are accepting of the analysis - you are just saying that the effects won't hurt as much we fear, and that the pain will be worth it in the long run. Is that a fair intepretation of your position?

You are now dodging......

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, transam said:

You are now dodging......

I don't see a question in the post I was responding too so I am not sure what I am dodging - my point remains that in the absence of fact, we must rely upon opinion. The experts are mostly of the opinion that the effects will be detrimental to us all. Give me expert analysis that suggests otherwise and I will take a look - but after 2 years, there still seems to be none.

[Kieran00001]

17 minutes ago, transam said:

Crawled back to one of the worlds best economies...?

 

How did the UK do that...?

 

By nationalization and austerity.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 hours ago, oldhippy said:

How is running away from hunger and disease any different from running away from war? They are both killers.

Hundreds of thousands of fit, healthy looking young men arriving in Europe in their designer jeans, clutching their iPhone’s and iPad’s, didn't much look like they were running away from hunger and disease.

 

I have always believed in the obligation of the UK and the EU to assist and offer refuge to genuine refugees. I have also always believed in rejecting economic migrants masquerading as refugees; whereas you seem either unaware or just plain obdurate to the existence of this massive migrant group, which are a much bigger problem to Europe than the genuine refugees.

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, transam said:

Did the UK pay the loans back and still became a world financial power...YES or NO....?

 

 

The factors that contributed to that success are many, and much of them are no longer relevant in this day and age.

[The Renegade]

8 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

That seems a somewhat cavalier attitude to take, especially when considering the collective calibre of the minds that suggest we should be fearful.

 

I think, though, that you are accepting of the analysis - you are just saying that the effects won't hurt as much we fear, and that the pain will be worth it in the long run. Is that a fair intepretation of your position?

I thought my comment was straight forward and very self explanatory.

 

How you interpret that comment is entirely down to you.

 

If you have a specific question regarding my comment, pose that question and I will answer it.

[transam]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I don't see a question in the post I was responding too so I am not sure what I am dodging - my point remains that in the absence of fact, we must rely upon opinion. The experts are mostly of the opinion that the effects will be detrimental to us all. Give me expert analysis that suggests otherwise and I will take a look - but after 2 years, there still seems to be none.

Hitler bombing the UK was fact, the UK was out gunned, but the UK prevailed against all the odds and came back to be one of the best financial countries in the world even being one of the smallest..........You have no answers to that....

[transam]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

The factors that contributed to that success are many, and much of them are no longer relevant in this day and age.

I think you are lost in space...You have no answers.....

[RuamRudy]

Just now, transam said:

Hitler bombing the UK was fact, the UK was out gunned, but the UK prevailed against all the odds and came back to be one of the best financial countries in the world even being one of the smallest..........You have no answers to that....

You are mixing up two threads now... but are you forgetting about the empire and backs of the colonies that we stood upon for so long? WWII was no David and Goliath contest.