Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[aright]

Nothing delights Remainers more than attempts to estimate the impact of the UK leaving the EU, particularly if the findings sound negative. Like their doom and gloom trade scenarios it's all conjecture of course. 

Remainers show fanatical allegiance to this dysfunctional political project. Two years after the Referendum the quislings are still fighting the result and attempting to reverse/water down it. 

When I voted leave I wasn't shutting a door I was letting in the light.

[aright]

Sorry Double post. Web site seems slow and irresponsive today

Edited May 26, 2018 by aright

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

It is obvious that Brexit has so many details and facets which the propaganda politicians never considered in advance.

All of these screaming politicians have virtually no knowledge  of detailed trade flows, international trade and customs law and from the 100,000 EU project contracts in detail.

 

It was clear from the outset that brexit could not be solved comprehensively in 2 years.

If everybody knews that trade agreements usually take 7-10 years (see Canada or Japan).

And with brexit, the aggravation and dissolution negotiations are added to make matters worse and time consuming.

 

That is and was known to the howler monkeys in advance. 

Here, the entire population was simply lied to.

 

What we are experiencing here is the political spectacle of impossibility given from the outset, if the Brexit is to be completed with the least possible damage for both sides.

I’m sure there are some,if not many politicians who do have experience of international trade, unfortunately when you have remainer Teresa May in charge,  this results in Brexiteers fighting on two fronts. 

[tomacht8]

41 minutes ago, nontabury said:

sI’m sure there are some,if not many politicians who do have experience of international trade, unfortunately when you have remainer Teresa May in charge,  this results in Brexiteers fighting on two fronts. 

I do not want to exclude that there are a few politicians who bring the expertise in detail.
But the way politicians work are PR, lobbying, and beautiful speeches which they pobably have not even writen by themselfs. There is not much time left to study details in depth.
 

Edited May 26, 2018 by tomacht8

[tebee]

50 minutes ago, nontabury said:

I’m sure there are some,if not many politicians who do have experience of international trade, unfortunately when you have remainer Teresa May in charge,  this results in Brexiteers fighting on two fronts. 

There was one person who warned it would take at least 7 years to arrange trade deals, Sir Ivan Rogers, but then he was one of those "experts" so they sacked him.

[The Renegade]

As a follow on from my last comment, the last paragraph from the same article.

 

Quote

All of the Irish people I know remain passionate about the idea of Europe. Even those who rejected Lisbon think of Ireland as European, and have travelled, worked and made friends on the continent. It is not Europe that they rejected in the referendum in June, but a document produced by a cut-off and aloof European elite, those cosmopolitan poseurs who are in reality distrustful of Europe's masses, whether it's the thick Irish, the xenophobic French, or the mysterious Turks. The Irish were being properly European; the EU is being merely elitist.

Sound familiar ?

 

People still cannot differentiate between Europe and the EU

 

Thick Irish

 

Xenophobic French

 

10 years on and the same shoite is trotted out on a daily basis.

 

Still cannot grasp that there is something very wrong when the belief is that the EU Institutions are correct and everyone else is wrong.

 

[Scott]

Troll post and reply removed.   Media sources have proper names.   Use them.  

[The Renegade]

11 hours ago, tebee said:

Yesterday, Ireland voted in a referendum. To remove any scope for doubt, in advance of the vote, the Irish Government set out in detail what would follow in the event that the referendum proposal is carried.

Ireland also had a Referendum in 2008, in which the terms were clearly laid out

 

However there was a fly in the ointment. Vote again until you get the required result.

 

Quote

What part of Ireland's 'no' does the EU not understand?

 

Quote

The Irish were subjected to a tirade of slanderous abuse when they dared to reject officials' carefully crafted and profound (in truth, overlong and turgid) document on the future of the EU. One Brussels official described them as "ungrateful bastards"

From the EU hating sections of the British MSM ? ( Modified as apparently the Remainer commonly used names for these media outlets are not acceptable for use by a Leaver. )

 

Nah, from the EU loving Guardian.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/dec/13/eu-ireland-lisbon-treaty

 

Ireland is not the UK and the UK is not Ireland.

 

The terms and conditions laid out for the UK 2016 Referendum were the exact same terms laid out for the 1975 Referendum.

 

Quote

This is your decision. The Government will implement what YOU decide.

 

Is this Brexit related ? It is certainly far more Brexit related than Friday's Irish Referendum on abortion.

 

[whatsupdoc]

12 hours ago, The Renegade said:

???

 

When you leave a club the rules no longer apply.

 

What a pity that the EU, Barnier and YOU do not understand this.

 

Another epic failure for the highly educated remainer club.

In a 'no deal' scenario, maybe yes. But certainly not if you still want a transition period or keep some of the club benefits.

Really hard to understand for brexiteers?????

Barnier is doing a very good job but he has to deal with impossible demands/wishes by the UK.

[tebee]

28 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

In a 'no deal' scenario, maybe yes. But certainly not if you still want a transition period or keep some of the club benefits.

Really hard to understand for brexiteers?????

Barnier is doing a very good job but he has to deal with impossible demands/wishes by the UK.

Indeed, this is what we have spent the last two years discussing. And orderly leave has to be better   than one  where we charge out of the door and slam it shut behind us.

 

There are thousands of businesses in the UK (and in the EU) that have based business plans on us being members of the EU. Leaving without a deal would cause millions of job losses in the UK and a goodly number the other side of the channel. 

 

People that call for no deal leave either have no idea what they are talking about or just don't care about their fellow man.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

35 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

In a 'no deal' scenario, maybe yes. But certainly not if you still want a transition period or keep some of the club benefits.

Really hard to understand for brexiteers?????

Barnier is doing a very good job but he has to deal with impossible demands/wishes by the UK.

Nonsense, utter poppycock; it is contrariwise, it is the EU making demands designed to prevent the UK from a clean break, continually trying to keep us tied in anyway possible to this rapidly crumbling union of federalist dreamers.

 

I don’t think this is really hard for remainers to understand, just impossible for them to accept.

[The Renegade]

6 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

I don’t think this is really hard for remainers to understand, just impossible for them to accept.

No more needs to be said. That nails it perfectly.

[whatsupdoc]

5 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Nonsense, utter poppycock; it is contrariwise, it is the EU making demands designed to prevent the UK from a clean break, continually trying to keep us tied in anyway possible to this rapidly crumbling union of federalist dreamers.

 

I don’t think this is really hard for remainers to understand, just impossible for them to accept.

Then what is keeping the UK from a 'no deal' and just go to WTO rules? Time for the UK to make up its mind.

[dick dasterdly]

32 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Then what is keeping the UK from a 'no deal' and just go to WTO rules? Time for the UK to make up its mind.

That is the million dollar question .

 

The UK govt. has made no attempt to prepare for a genuine leave, despite it being obvious that there is no genuine 'agreement' on offer.  Instead, they accede to the eu's 'negotiating list' (and largely accept some of their demands) and prevaricate....

 

Hmmm....

 

Edit - I apologise for the over-large emoticon.  TV is playing up badly today.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Leaving without a deal would cause millions of job losses in the UK and a goodly number the other side of the channel.

Do you have anything, I mean anything at all, to support this catastrophic prediction of impending unemployment, or are you simply pulling lottery numbers out of a hat in more of your sensationalist fantasy of doom ??

 

The UK has about 1.44 million unemployed (circa 4.2%) You don't specify how many millions, so just for the ease of calculation, let's just say 2. So, you are predicting that UK unemployment would then rise to a minimum of 3.44 million (circa 10%) …… Do you really want anyone to take you seriously ??

Edited May 27, 2018 by Eloquent pilgrim

[tebee]

12 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Do you have anything, I mean anything at all, to support this catastrophic prediction of impending unemployment, or are you simply pulling lottery numbers out of a hat in more of your sensationalist fantasy of doom ??

 

The UK has about 1.44 million unemployed (circa 4.2%) You don't specify how many millions, so just for the ease of calculation, let's just say 2. So, you are predicting that UK unemployment would then rise to a minimum of 3.44 million (circa 10%) …… Do you really want anyone to take you seriously ??

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

 

OK exact figures are going to be hard to come by as no nation on earth trades entirely by WTO rules and certainly no one has  ever tried to turn the clock back 50 years, so there is a lost of estimates.

 

But....

 

All JIT manufacturing could no longer work so all the car industry closes.

British road transport drivers are no longer allowed to work in the EU.

All livestock exports stop

We are no longer allowed to sell services in the EU so all industries that depend on this have to close or move to europe - remember this is now 83% of our exports.

All British people working in the EU now no longer have the right to work there.

All the British retires on the Costa del sol now no longer have the right to live there.

All EU citizens in the UK now no longer have the right to live or work here - so we lose all the EU dr in the NHS

Many more - I can waste all day giving examples

 

Worse case scenario is we have a repeat of the partition of  India  - and we all know how well that went.

 

Some of this could be avoided, but the time to enact the legislation that would be needed is far too short. 

 

Remember this is what will happen in 9 months if we don't sort out an agreement by then.

[dick dasterdly]

23 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Do you have anything, I mean anything at all, to support this catastrophic prediction of impending unemployment, or are you simply pulling lottery numbers out of a hat in more of your sensationalist fantasy of doom ??

 

The UK has about 1.44 million unemployed (circa 4.2%) You don't specify how many millions, so just for the ease of calculation, let's just say 2. So, you are predicting that UK unemployment would then rise to a minimum of 3.44 million (circa 10%) …… Do you really want anyone to take you seriously ??

I don't believe unemployment statistics anymore - they have been 'manipulated' over decades....

 

But I do agree that 'millions' more in the uk, is sheer fear tactics.

[billd766]

20 minutes ago, tebee said:

https://www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/Exiting-the-European-Union/17-19/Cross-Whitehall-briefing/EU-Exit-Analysis-Cross-Whitehall-Briefing.pdf

 

OK exact figures are going to be hard to come by as no nation on earth trades entirely by WTO rules and certainly no one has  ever tried to turn the clock back 50 years, so there is a lost of estimates.

 

But....

 

All JIT manufacturing could no longer work so all the car industry closes.

British road transport drivers are no longer allowed to work in the EU.

All livestock exports stop

We are no longer allowed to sell services in the EU so all industries that depend on this have to close or move to europe - remember this is now 83% of our exports.

All British people working in the EU now no longer have the right to work there.

All the British retires on the Costa del sol now no longer have the right to live there.

All EU citizens in the UK now no longer have the right to live or work here - so we lose all the EU dr in the NHS

Many more - I can waste all day giving examples

 

Worse case scenario is we have a repeat of the partition of  India  - and we all know how well that went.

 

Some of this could be avoided, but the time to enact the legislation that would be needed is far too short. 

 

Remember this is what will happen in 9 months if we don't sort out an agreement by then.

 

You, like me and the majority of people who are Leavers, Remainers or don't knows/don't cares have NO idea what will happen come next month.

 

Could be, perhaps, maybe, if this then that terms are meaningless.

 

You find something anti Brexit and then somebody else finds something pro Brexit, who is correct? You, them, somebody else, nobody else?

 

All the millions of words and opinions from posters on forums everywhere are a complete waste of time and only serve to widen the difference between people.

 

Just let it go unless you can do a better job. That won't happen as you are not an MP, the PM, a Minister or a negotiator and never will be.

 

There are people who are paid to do this for a living. Let them do their jobs whether you agree with what they do or not.

 

If you think that you can do better then stand as a candidate in the next election, win the seat and then, perhaps you CAN do something.

[The Renegade]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

But....

 

All JIT manufacturing could no longer work so all the car industry closes.

Really ? Why the hyperbole ?

 

Manufacturing does not NEED JIT. It is simply a nice to have as it cuts costs.

 

The only industries that NEED JIT are perishable goods industries. For obvious reasons.

 

So you are going to have to explain why all car industries will close in relation to JIT.

Edited May 27, 2018 by The Renegade

[tebee]

1 hour ago, whatsupdoc said:

Then what is keeping the UK from a 'no deal' and just go to WTO rules? Time for the UK to make up its mind.

The fact that doing so would be as disaster and any political  party  that did leave with no deal would be out of power for a generation or more afterwards.

 

People on here  than proclaim that we should should leave with no deal quite happily because they have no responsibilities for the consequences.

 

Politicians can be held to account so they are not going to do anything  that stupid - at least intenionaly !

 

No deal has never been a credible option.      

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

No deal has never been a credible option

There was always a deal, it is called WTO rules.

 

How is it that most of the World can trade via these rules yet remainers are terrified of them ?

 

What the EU / UK should be negotiating is trying to come up with a deal that is better than WTO rules, unfortunately, the EU / Barniers stance that the UK must be under control of the ECJ makes it all pointless.

[dick dasterdly]

43 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

You, like me and the majority of people who are Leavers, Remainers or don't knows/don't cares have NO idea what will happen come next month.

 

Could be, perhaps, maybe, if this then that terms are meaningless.

 

You find something anti Brexit and then somebody else finds something pro Brexit, who is correct? You, them, somebody else, nobody else?

 

All the millions of words and opinions from posters on forums everywhere are a complete waste of time and only serve to widen the difference between people.

 

Just let it go unless you can do a better job. That won't happen as you are not an MP, the PM, a Minister or a negotiator and never will be.

 

There are people who are paid to do this for a living. Let them do their jobs whether you agree with what they do or not.

 

If you think that you can do better then stand as a candidate in the next election, win the seat and then, perhaps you CAN do something.There are people who are paid to do this for a living. Let them do their jobs whether you agree with what they do or not.

"There are people who are paid to do this for a living. Let them do their jobs whether you agree with what they do or not."

 

You trust politicians a lot more than me!

 

We have a remainer PM plus the vast majority of MPs supporting remain....  Why on earth would you trust them?

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Manufacturing does not NEED JIT. It is simply a nice to have as it cuts costs.

And there we have it in a nutshell. Brexiter naivety. No more need to be said.

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

And there we have it in a nutshell. Brexiter naivety. No more need to be said.

Great reply.

 

JIT is not an essential requirement for manufacturing. It is a nice to have and Car manufacturing will not be closed down because of JIT.

 

Now give us all your wordly wisdom and actually refute what I said.

 

No doubt I will have to wait as long as your non forthcoming Irish History lesson.

 

 

 

 

[candide]

15 hours ago, tebee said:

In the UK referendum, the electorate was presented with an ambiguous and contradictory proposal, predicated on the false assumption that Britain would have sufficient leverage to impose its terms on the other side. Now that this false assumption has been exploded, the UK Government has become paralysed. The choice facing Mr Davis is a real world menu of constrained and unpleasant realities, none of which conform with “the will of the people”.

 

And this latter point is crucial. A hard Brexit, with all of the economic disruptions that are entailed, does not conform any more closely with “the will of the people” than a decision to remain.

The current situation could not be better explained. Brexiters had imaginary representations of Brexit based on faith, and neither the quasi-remain option nor the hard Brexit option can conform to their dreams.

I don't particularly like Theresa May and her political stance, but I somehow feel sorry for her. She has the impossible mission to satisfy unrealistic expectations and there is no miraculous way to do it. Whatever the option she may eventually choose, it will raise discontentment.

[candide]

15 hours ago, tebee said:

In the UK referendum, the electorate was presented with an ambiguous and contradictory proposal, predicated on the false assumption that Britain would have sufficient leverage to impose its terms on the other side. Now that this false assumption has been exploded, the UK Government has become paralysed. The choice facing Mr Davis is a real world menu of constrained and unpleasant realities, none of which conform with “the will of the people”.

 

And this latter point is crucial. A hard Brexit, with all of the economic disruptions that are entailed, does not conform any more closely with “the will of the people” than a decision to remain.

The current situation could not be better explained. Brexiters had imaginary representations of Brexit based on faith, and neither the quasi-remain option nor the hard Brexit option can conform to their dreams.

I don't particularly like Theresa May and her political stance, but I somehow feel sorry for her. She has the impossible mission to satisfy unrealistic expectations and there is no miraculous way to do it. Whatever the option she may eventually choose, it will raise discontentment.

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

And there we have it in a nutshell. Brexiter naivety. No more need to be said.

Great reply.

 

JIT is not an essential requirement for manufacturing. It is a nice to have and Car manufacturing will not be closed down because of JIT.

 

Now give us all your worldly wisdom and actually refute what I said.

 

No doubt I will have to wait as long as your non forthcoming Irish History lesson.

 

 

 

 

[candide]

15 hours ago, tebee said:

In the UK referendum, the electorate was presented with an ambiguous and contradictory proposal, predicated on the false assumption that Britain would have sufficient leverage to impose its terms on the other side. Now that this false assumption has been exploded, the UK Government has become paralysed. The choice facing Mr Davis is a real world menu of constrained and unpleasant realities, none of which conform with “the will of the people”.

 

And this latter point is crucial. A hard Brexit, with all of the economic disruptions that are entailed, does not conform any more closely with “the will of the people” than a decision to remain.

The current situation could not be better explained. Brexiters had imaginary representations of Brexit based on faith, and neither the quasi-remain option nor the hard Brexit option can conform to their dreams.

I don't particularly like Theresa May and her political stance, but I somehow feel sorry for her. She has the impossible mission to satisfy unrealistic expectations and there is no miraculous way to do it. Whatever the option she may eventually choose, it will raise discontentment.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Nonsense, utter poppycock; it is contrariwise, it is the EU making demands designed to prevent the UK from a clean break, continually trying to keep us tied in anyway possible to this rapidly crumbling union of federalist dreamers.

 

I don’t think this is really hard for remainers to understand, just impossible for them to accept.

What is all this faux Georgian language? You don't think Rees-Mogg disease is contagious do you?

 

Incidentally, I believe that Brexiters in general want to leave the EU but in a way that causes minimum damage to country generally and the common man in particular. 

 

 

[tebee]

35 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Really ? Why the hyperbole ?

 

Manufacturing does not NEED JIT. It is simply a nice to have as it cuts costs.

 

The only industries that NEED JIT are perishable goods industries. For obvious reasons.

 

So you are going to have to explain why all car industries will close in relation to JIT.

I'll agree with your first point - with a few exceptions E.G. some modern high-performance adhesives have a shelf life of a couple of days

 

 

But...

 

I've seen a figure somewhere that JIT can save around 20% of manufacturing costs.  Would you , as a big transnational company, locate you manufacturing plant in a country where you can use JIT and save that 20% or locate it in one that you can't? In the WTO scenario UK will have an additional disadvantage that cars and car parts will suffer a 10% ish customs tariff everytime they cross the EU/UK border

 

Existing plants aren't safe either. One of the big savings from JIT is that you don't need stockage areas in your factory, meaning it can be physically smaller, and the distances shorter so part built cars get from one part of it to another quickly. But this means that you can't convert a factory from JIT to Non JIT easily. It might be cheaper to just build a new factory somewhere else.