Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[billd766]

6 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Seems a sensible thing to do, then if leave wins with a decent majority it could, if not joyfully, be  accepted by the remainers who would then keep quiet.

 

In that case the Brexiteers would demand another referendum with the best out of 3, 5, 7 or more referendums until one side wins by a margin of 3, 4  or 5 referendums at an enormous cost to the country.

[ivor bigun]

Saying Brexit will make us poorer:

97%  of academics
ALL of big business (CBI)
The TUC
Every former PM alive
IMF
World Bank
Every major bank
HM Treasury
 
Saying Brexit is great:

Boris Johnson (proven liar)
Nigel Farage (proven liar)
J Mogg (proven liar)
Steve Baker (proven liar)

Oh well i will be happy to be poorer and free of Brussels.but somehow i reckon we wont be poorer anyway we won you lost live with it[emoji4]

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[soalbundy]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

In that case the Brexiteers would demand another referendum with the best out of 3, 5, 7 or more referendums until one side wins by a margin of 3, 4  or 5 referendums at an enormous cost to the country.

whatever, it's already become a farce, move No.10 to Faulty Towers and put John Cleese in charge.

[tebee]

The Appalling Failure of Brexit

 

https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/brexit-negotiations-uk-leaders-failure-by-chris-patten-2018-05

 

As the reality of Brexit sinks in, members of Britain’s cabinet and leading Brexiteers have turned on one another, while attempting to cast blame on everyone but themselves. The UK must plunge ahead, they insist, because that was “the will of the people," while they prepare their excuses for the impending debacle

[tebee]

9 hours ago, The Renegade said:

For those that appear to have a problem understanding Democracy.

 

The EU Referendum bill was passed in 2015 by the House of Commons and then by the House of Lords.

 

The sitting Prime Minister called the Referendum for 23 June 2016.

 

At a cost of £9million, a leaflet was sent to every household explaining why the Government thought it was best to stay in the EU.

 

There were no caveats placed on the Referendum, with the exception of

 

51.89% of votes were to leave.

 

After tantrums and Court Cases, Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 by 498 votes to 114 votes.

 

 

.

Under british constitutional law no referendum can ever bind parliament 

9 hours ago, The Renegade said:

F

 

 

Will it be a disaster for the UK ? It will take at least a generation to come up with an answer to that one, so keep the hysterics in check.

 

Hard no-deal  brexit will be a disaster within days 

[tebee]

51 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

whatever, it's already become a farce, move No.10 to Faulty Towers and put John Cleese in charge.

I often wonder if the Brexiters ever stop to think how the rest of the world views us now - we have become a laughing stock. The British reputation for pragmatism is destroyed.

It's done as much damage to our reputation as Suez. 

[Orac]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Under british constitutional law no referendum can ever bind parliament 

 

Hard no-deal  brexit will be a disaster within days 

 

Is that strictly true?

 

i thought the 2011 European Union Act mandated a binding referendum should U.K. gov wish to transfer any further powers to the EU - legal challenge going on currently if leaving the EU but still being bound to accept their rulings in a transition period ongoing triggering this act (though could be a bit out of date on this case).

[tebee]

12 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Is that strictly true?

 

i thought the 2011 European Union Act mandated a binding referendum should U.K. gov wish to transfer any further powers to the EU - legal challenge going on currently if leaving the EU but still being bound to accept their rulings in a transition period ongoing triggering this act (though could be a bit out of date on this case).

The UK is representative democracy which means Parliament and its members have to decide what laws to make on their own judgment - they can't be legally bound to vote in a particular way, though there may be a moral or political imperatif to vote one way or the other 

 

      National referendums can be permitted by an Act of Parliament and regulated though the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, but they are by tradition extremely rare due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty meaning that they cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament, although they usually have a persuasive political effect.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom

[Orac]

The UK is representative democracy which means Parliament and its members have to decide what laws to make on their own judgment - they can't be legally bound to vote in a particular way, though there may be a moral or political imperatif to vote one way or the other 
 
      National referendums can be permitted by an Act of Parliament and regulated though the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, but they are by tradition extremely rare due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty meaning that they cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament, although they usually have a persuasive political effect.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom

It appears the 2011 Act already allows the referendum to be binding though obviously there are limits on when it can be applied which is a whole other ball game.

“a)the Act providing for the approval of the treaty provides that the provision approving the treaty is not to come into force until a referendum about whether the treaty should be ratified has been held throughout the United Kingdom or, where the treaty also affects Gibraltar, throughout the United Kingdom and Gibraltar,
(b)the referendum has been held, and
©the majority of those voting in the referendum are in favour of the ratification of the treaty.”

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/part/1/enacted


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[tebee]

1 minute ago, Orac said:

 

 

It appears the 2011 Act already allows the referendum to be binding though obviously there are limits on when it can be applied which is a whole other ball game.

“a)the Act providing for the approval of the treaty provides that the provision approving the treaty is not to come into force until a referendum about whether the treaty should be ratified has been held throughout the United Kingdom or, where the treaty also affects Gibraltar, throughout the United Kingdom and Gibraltar,
(b)the referendum has been held, and
©the majority of those voting in the referendum are in favour of the ratification of the treaty.”

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2011/12/part/1/enacted


 

 

 

 

 

That's interesting because I thought the argument that was put up in parliament about the last referendum not needing a supermajority  was because it was an advisory referendum only and it had to be advisory only because it could not usurp parliament?   

[Orac]

 
 
That's interesting because I thought the argument that was put up in parliament about the last referendum not needing a supermajority  was because it was an advisory referendum only and it had to be advisory only because it could not usurp parliament?   

It is an Act of Parliament but only applicable to powers moving from the U.K. to EU and not the other way hence the Conservatives being able to avoid it previously. It is set to be repealed by the current legislation going through but the subject of one of the many amendments I believe.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[The Renegade]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Under british constitutional law no referendum can ever bind parliament 

What is the point you are trying to make, and why are you making things up ?

 

11 hours ago, The Renegade said:

After tantrums and Court Cases, Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 by 498 votes to 114 votes.

                                   The Referendum is not binding Parliament. 

 

What is binding Parliament is the overwhelming vote in January 2017 to invoke Article 50, which was then confirmed by both houses in March 2017. Article 50 being invoked just over 2 weeks later.

 

Quote

Theresa May’s Brexit bill has cleared all its hurdles in the Houses of Parliament, opening the way for the prime minister to trigger article 50 by the end of March.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/13/brexit-vote-article-50-eu-citizens-rights-lords-mps

 

Try again.

[The Renegade]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Hard no-deal  brexit will be a disaster within days 

Great crystal ball you have, or perhaps you can see into the future ??

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

whatever, it's already become a farce, move No.10 to Faulty Towers and put John Cleese in charge.

 

So pleased to see that remainers have such an original and imaginative sense of humour; extremely reassuring

[ivor bigun]

I often wonder if the Brexiters ever stop to think how the rest of the world views us now - we have become a laughing stock. The British reputation for pragmatism is destroyed.
It's done as much damage to our reputation as Suez. 

No we are not and no it hasnt.That is except in your world where anything you think up is true

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[vogie]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

I often wonder if the Brexiters ever stop to think how the rest of the world views us now - we have become a laughing stock. The British reputation for pragmatism is destroyed.

It's done as much damage to our reputation as Suez. 

You would like the UK to become a laughing stock, you show no allegiance to the UK (same goes for Al Bundy) brexit is all about you.

[dick dasterdly]

12 hours ago, The Renegade said:

For those that appear to have a problem understanding Democracy.

 

The EU Referendum bill was passed in 2015 by the House of Commons and then by the House of Lords.

 

The sitting Prime Minister called the Referendum for 23 June 2016.

 

At a cost of £9million, a leaflet was sent to every household explaining why the Government thought it was best to stay in the EU.

 

There were no caveats placed on the Referendum, with the exception of 

 

51.89% of votes were to leave.

 

After tantrums and Court Cases, Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 by 498 votes to 114 votes.

 

Will it be a disaster for the UK ? It will take at least a generation to come up with an answer to that one, so keep the hysterics in check.

 

2 hours ago, tebee said:

Under british constitutional law no referendum can ever bind parliament 

 

Hard no-deal  brexit will be a disaster within days 

As Renegade pointed out, the leaflet sent out to every household by the govt. said "This is YOUR decision, The Government will implement what YOU decide".

 

Trying to argue that "Under british constitutional law no referendum can ever bind parliament" didn't convince MPs - and it certainly doesn't convince the majority of citizens that it's OK for the govt. to lie to the electorate!

[The Renegade]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Trying to argue that "Under british constitutional law no referendum can ever bind parliament" didn't convince MPs - and it certainly doesn't convince the majority of citizens that it's OK for the govt. to lie to the electorate!

 

Remainers, either by design or woeful ignorance focus on '' The Referendum '' and totally ignore the Parliamentary process that occurred both before and after the '' The Referendum ''

 

I would hate to think that it is woeful ignorance, though in some cases it it obviously true, so it must be by design. Kind of hard to put forward a meaningful argument against the Parliamentary processes that took place before and after the referendum.

[dick dasterdly]

To be honest, I don't much care about parliamentary process as I don't trust politicians - full stop.

 

But I agree that there's no argument about parliamentary process as it's been adhered to  - both before and after the referendum.

 

We have to go back to the govt. promising "this is YOUR decision, The Government will implement what YOU decide".

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

As Renegade pointed out, the leaflet sent out to every household by the govt. said "This is YOUR decision, The Government will implement what YOU decide".

 

Trying to argue that "Under british constitutional law no referendum can ever bind parliament" didn't convince MPs - and it certainly doesn't convince the majority of citizens that it's OK for the govt. to lie to the electorate!

There’s been a change of government since.

 

No government is bound by the promises of it’s predecessor(s).

 

[Chomper Higgot]

4 hours ago, The Renegade said:

 

Remainers, either by design or woeful ignorance focus on '' The Referendum '' and totally ignore the Parliamentary process that occurred both before and after the '' The Referendum ''

 

I would hate to think that it is woeful ignorance, though in some cases it it obviously true, so it must be by design. Kind of hard to put forward a meaningful argument against the Parliamentary processes that took place before and after the referendum.

That’s a little ingenious.

 

‘Remainers’ forced the government by means of ruling in the high court to adhere to ‘Parliamentary process’.

 

’Remainers’ continue to battle the government’s plans to replace ‘Parliamentary process’ with ‘executive rule.

 

For this they have been ludicrously labelled by Brexiteers as ‘enemies of the people’.

 

Meanwhile Brexit continues to flounder on the rocks of Tory Party divisions, the same divisions that gave rise to the referrendum in the first place.

[tebee]

Brexit is led by resentful exceptionalists who can’t bear being in a club on equal terms with France, Italy, Belgium; those delusions of grandeur are behind their cakeist conviction that the EU will change itself to give the UK a special deal. Brexit will eat itself. The success of the project hinges upon the exceptionalist myth being true that propelled the UK out of the EU in the first place. It’s built on lies and self-delusion, of COURSE their entire strategy has been “wait for the EU to recognise our indispensable greatness & roll over”.

 

“We’re too great to accept a dilution of sovereignty that is fine for the Dutch & Poles” translates into “they will bend the rules for us because British people must be sold BMWs and prosecco” and it was always bound to fail. The country is split into those who have always seen this and are incandescent with rage at the embarrassing folly that will ruin us, and those who won’t see it even when standing in the midst of that ruin.

 

This ruinous delusional arrogance isn’t solely the prerogative of  the UK, one of our neighbours went through a similar experience 70 years ago....

[aright]

7 hours ago, tebee said:

I often wonder if the Brexiters ever stop to think how the rest of the world views us now - we have become a laughing stock. The British reputation for pragmatism is destroyed.

It's done as much damage to our reputation as Suez. 

 

13 minutes ago, tebee said:

Brexit is led by resentful exceptionalists who can’t bear being in a club on equal terms with France, Italy, Belgium; those delusions of grandeur are behind their cakeist conviction that the EU will change itself to give the UK a special deal. Brexit will eat itself. The success of the project hinges upon the exceptionalist myth being true that propelled the UK out of the EU in the first place. It’s built on lies and self-delusion, of COURSE their entire strategy has been “wait for the EU to recognise our indispensable greatness & roll over”.

 

“We’re too great to accept a dilution of sovereignty that is fine for the Dutch & Poles” translates into “they will bend the rules for us because British people must be sold BMWs and prosecco” and it was always bound to fail. The country is split into those who have always seen this and are incandescent with rage at the embarrassing folly that will ruin us, and those who won’t see it even when standing in the midst of that ruin.

 

This ruinous delusional arrogance isn’t solely the prerogative of  the UK, one of our neighbours went through a similar experience 70 years ago....

You seem to be suggesting in your first post that the UK's national and foreign policy would be better formulated by people who laugh at us...…………... Now that's a real laugh.

In your second post you seem to feel I regard myself above the French, Italians and Belgians, that I have bought in to lies and self delusion, that I should adopt without question the same standards as the Dutch and Poles and my position on Brexit is an embarrassing folly...…………...You might think you know me but you don't, this is pure unadulterated tripe. 

 

[The Renegade]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

There’s been a change of government since.

Has there ?

 

???

 

Come on wise one, enlighten us all to who this new Government is ?

 

As I said 3 days ago, you are going to be  real hoot.

 

Racking my brains here, but I am certain is was the Tories who campaigned for Government by promising the electorate a Referendum. The Tories who gave us the Referendum whilst in Government and it is the Tories who are still in Government.

 

As you are a non Brit I would not expect you to be up to speed on things like that.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by The Renegade

[The Renegade]

33 minutes ago, tebee said:

Brexit is led by resentful exceptionalists who can’t bear being in a club on equal terms with France, Italy, Belgium;

Brilliant satire from the poster who wants the UK to remain in the EU in case he gets kicked out of France.

 

???

Edited June 1, 2018 by The Renegade

[Eloquent pilgrim]

45 minutes ago, tebee said:

Brexit is led by resentful exceptionalists who can’t bear being in a club on equal terms with France, Italy, Belgium; those delusions of grandeur are behind their cakeist conviction that the EU will change itself to give the UK a special deal. Brexit will eat itself. The success of the project hinges upon the exceptionalist myth being true that propelled the UK out of the EU in the first place. It’s built on lies and self-delusion, of COURSE their entire strategy has been “wait for the EU to recognise our indispensable greatness & roll over”.

 

“We’re too great to accept a dilution of sovereignty that is fine for the Dutch & Poles” translates into “they will bend the rules for us because British people must be sold BMWs and prosecco” and it was always bound to fail. The country is split into those who have always seen this and are incandescent with rage at the embarrassing folly that will ruin us, and those who won’t see it even when standing in the midst of that ruin.

 

This ruinous delusional arrogance isn’t solely the prerogative of  the UK, one of our neighbours went through a similar experience 70 years ago....

Why do you keep posting all this drivel, when we all now know that the only thing you really care about is your own personal situation as a UK citizen living in France ??  ?? ✌️

[The Renegade]

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

that gave rise to the referrendum in the first place.

Humour ( note the spelling ) me.

 

Why do your fingers get a stutter every time you type Referendum ?

[Chomper Higgot]

45 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Has there ?

 

???

 

Come on wise one, enlighten us all to who this new Government is ?

 

As I said 3 days ago, you are going to be  real hoot.

 

Racking my brains here, but I am certain is was the Tories who campaigned for Government by promising the electorate a Referendum. The Tories who gave us the Referendum whilst in Government and it is the Tories who are still in Government.

 

As you are a non Brit I would not expect you to be up to speed on things like that.

 

 

The government is a coalition, held in power by votes rented at cost to the taxpayer from the DUP.

 

Not the same Tory Government, a completely different beast, a Tory DUP coalition in which the DUP tail frequently wags the Tory dog.

 

Something of a challenge when the impact of Brexit on the Irish boarder is so central to the UK’s negotiations with the EU.

 

Hoot... Hoot...

 

(Iliberal doesn’t even know who is own government is)

 

....Hoot!

 

Edited June 1, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The government is a coalition, held in power by votes rented at cost to the taxpayer from the DUP.

 

Not the same Tory Government, a completely different beast, a Tory DUP coalition in which the DUP tail frequently wags the Tory dog.

 

Something of s challenge when the impact of Brexit on the Irish boarder is so central to the UK’s negotiations with the EU.

 

Hoot... Hoot...

 

(Iliberal diesn’t even know who is own government is)

 

....Hoot!

 

???

 

The Tories are not in a coalition with the DUP.

 

The Tories have what is called a '' Confidence and Supply Agreement '' with the DUP.

 

Hoot Hoot indeed.

[CG1 Blue]

9 hours ago, tebee said:

I often wonder if the Brexiters ever stop to think how the rest of the world views us now - we have become a laughing stock. The British reputation for pragmatism is destroyed.

It's done as much damage to our reputation as Suez. 

I disagree.

 

Most citizens of prosperous countries wouldn't tolerate being under the control of an undemocratic club, and being dictated to by a bunch of foreign bureaucrats sitting in another country.