Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[dick dasterdly]

14 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

The 'problem' is that there are only a relatively small number of 'independent' voters in the uk - i.e. don't vote for the party for whom they've always voted, or (when piddled off enough...), abstained from voting.

 

The referendum was different insofar as even those being 'told' by the media and even their own MPs that they should vote remain - a large number FINALLY took into consideration their own reality, and voted otherwise.

 

10 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

What makes you think it was reality that took into consideration rather than the lies the Leave campaign told them?

My own 'reality' when I started working in a low paid area (Luton)....

 

I suddenly understood the misconceptions of those living in relatively wealthy areas.  It came as a horrible shock to discover the realities of life in deprived neighbourhoods.

 

Plus, I started working when pay was pretty good - and watched how pay (along with company pensions) were slowly lowered for those at the bottom - and then those on average salaries....

 

Of course there were leave lies, but the biggest lies came from the remain group!  Osborne's promised punishment budget immediately springs to mind ? ( and I suspect motivated more than a few previously 'not sure' voters to vote leave) and, of course, pretty much the entire bevy of 'experts' promising immediate Armageddon in the event of a leave vote....

[soalbundy]

11 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Remain made no promises, so no, all they did was give potential scenarios, obviously none of those have yet had the chance to materialize.  Whereas Leave made promises they have already admitted they cannot keep, very different indeed.

It doesn't matter now, I think even leavers know that brexit,or at least the brexit they wanted, isn't going to happen, from now on everything will be fudge and farce. 

[transam]

17 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Remain made no promises, so no, all they did was give potential scenarios, obviously none of those have yet had the chance to materialize.  Whereas Leave made promises they have already admitted they cannot keep, very different indeed.

So remain stuff is just scenario's and not lies....So in fact BS with no facts...

[Kieran00001]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

My own 'reality' when I started working in a low paid area (Luton)....

 

I suddenly understood the misconceptions of those living in relatively wealthy areas.  It came as a horrible shock to discover the realities of life in deprived neighbourhoods.

 

Plus, I started working when pay was pretty good - and watched how pay (along with company pensions) were slowly lowered for those at the bottom - and then those on average salaries....

 

Of course there were leave lies, but the biggest lies came from the remain group!  Osborne's promised punishment budget immediately springs to mind ? ( and I suspect motivated more than a few previously 'not sure' voters to vote leave) and, of course, pretty much the entire bevy of 'experts' promising immediate Armageddon in the event of a leave vote....

 

Oh, you have extrapolated your own feelings onto every single voter, that makes sense, particularly considering you acknowledge the misconception of those living in wealthy areas yet fail to explain just how those people lost their misconception before the referendum.

 

Osborne's punishment budget could be taken as a Remain lie, however he was not on the Remain campaign team, he was voicing the opinion of the government who supported a remain vote, not Remain themselves.  And the experts predicting Armageddon were not promises, I am talking about the pledges given by the campaigns, Leave being nothing but lies, Remain being little but speculation, very different things, anyone could see that.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, soalbundy said:

It doesn't matter now, I think even leavers know that brexit,or at least the brexit they wanted, isn't going to happen, from now on everything will be fudge and farce. 

Purely because uk politicians have no intention of giving up their own financial benefits.  Both now and in the future.

[tebee]

7 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

My own 'reality' when I started working in a low paid area (Luton)....

 

I suddenly understood the misconceptions of those living in relatively wealthy areas.  It came as a horrible shock to discover the realities of life in deprived neighbourhoods.

 

Plus, I started working when pay was pretty good - and watched how pay (along with company pensions) were slowly lowered for those at the bottom - and then those on average salaries....

 

Of course there were leave lies, but the biggest lies came from the remain group!  Osborne's promised punishment budget immediately springs to mind ? ( and I suspect motivated more than a few previously 'not sure' voters to vote leave) and, of course, pretty much the entire bevy of 'experts' promising immediate Armageddon in the event of a leave vote....

But none of those changes are down to the EU - it's our own government that has made the poor poorer while the rich got richer. Much is down to neoliberalism and the sort of free market economy that the extreme leavers like Rees-Mogg  want. Mush of the rest of the EU has much more socialist economies that support the poorer better.

[soalbundy]

9 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

My own 'reality' when I started working in a low paid area (Luton)....

 

I suddenly understood the misconceptions of those living in relatively wealthy areas.  It came as a horrible shock to discover the realities of life in deprived neighbourhoods.

 

Plus, I started working when pay was pretty good - and watched how pay (along with company pensions) were slowly lowered for those at the bottom - and then those on average salaries....

 

Of course there were leave lies, but the biggest lies came from the remain group!  Osborne's promised punishment budget immediately springs to mind ? ( and I suspect motivated more than a few previously 'not sure' voters to vote leave) and, of course, pretty much the entire bevy of 'experts' promising immediate Armageddon in the event of a leave vote....

There have always been deprived areas in the UK, especially in the North, it didn't start with the EU. 

[Kieran00001]

1 minute ago, transam said:

So remain stuff is just scenario's and not lies....So in fact BS with no facts...

 

Do you honestly not recognize the difference between presenting worst case scenarios and promising people things with imaginary money?

[Eloquent pilgrim]

21 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Remain made no promises, so no, all they did was give potential scenarios, obviously none of those have yet had the chance to materialize.  Whereas Leave made promises they have already admitted they cannot keep, very different indeed.

The remain campaign could not really make any promises other than to preserve the status quo, they did however make many threats, the danger of which was highlighted 3 days before the referendum by  Hans van Baalen, who is leader of the Dutch Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD) in the European Parliament. Although he was a strong supporter of the UK remaining in the EU, he foresaw the danger of resentment in threatening the British public

 

By HANS VAN BAALEN

BRUSSELS, 20. JUN 2016, 09:41

 

QUOTE

****The president of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker referred to the Brits as "deserters", who, in case of a Brexit "won't be welcomed with open arms".

 

The president of the European Council, Donald Tusk, was guilty of exaggeration in saying that a Brexit "could destroy western political civilisation".

 

The British people have a firm nature: those who withstood the Blitz won't be impressed by these kind of hollow threats.

 

As first vice president of the European Commission Frans Timmermans stated, a Brexit would be "a failure of all European politics". The stormy rise of eurosceptic and populist parties across Europe means "More Europe" is certainly not the solution.

 

The only way forward is the way of reforms.

 

But all kinds of terrible predictions about the collapse of Europe in case of a No-vote fuelled the No campaigns. The Brits were not convinced by the visit of US president Obama to the UK, they were rather provoked****

[transam]

7 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Do you honestly not recognize the difference between presenting worst case scenarios and promising people things with imaginary money?

I smell double standards....

[dick dasterdly]

39 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

What makes you think it was reality that took into consideration rather than the lies the Leave campaign told them?

 

8 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

My own 'reality' when I started working in a low paid area (Luton)....

 

I suddenly understood the misconceptions of those living in relatively wealthy areas.  It came as a horrible shock to discover the realities of life in deprived neighbourhoods.

 

Plus, I started working when pay was pretty good - and watched how pay (along with company pensions) were slowly lowered for those at the bottom - and then those on average salaries....

 

Of course there were leave lies, but the biggest lies came from the remain group!  Osborne's promised punishment budget immediately springs to mind ? ( and I suspect motivated more than a few previously 'not sure' voters to vote leave) and, of course, pretty much the entire bevy of 'experts' promising immediate Armageddon in the event of a leave vote....

 

Just now, Kieran00001 said:

 

Oh, you have extrapolated your own feelings onto every single voter, that makes sense, particularly considering you acknowledge the misconception of those living in wealthy areas yet fail to explain just how those people lost their misconception before the referendum.

 

Osborne's punishment budget could be taken as a Remain lie, however he was not on the Remain campaign team, he was voicing the opinion of the government who supported a remain vote, not Remain themselves.  And the experts predicting Armageddon were not promises, I am talking about the pledges given by the campaigns, Leave being nothing but lies, Remain being little but speculation, very different things, anyone could see that.

You asked, and I answered.

 

Yet you have 'interpreted' this into "you have extrapolated your own feelings onto every single voter".

 

You go on to insist "Osborne's punishment budget could be taken as a Remain lie, however he was not on the Remain campaign team, he was voicing the opinion of the government who supported a remain vote, not Remain themselves.

 

So the govt. lying is ok???

 

[transam]

9 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

There have always been deprived areas in the UK, especially in the North, it didn't start with the EU. 

So what was it, expensive iPhones, home delivery curry's, class A drugs were becoming out of reach...Tell all...?

[The Renegade]

33 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

Remain made no promises, so no,

????

 

Where to start ??

 

Remain Government mouthpiece and sacked Chancellor.

 

Immediate recession.

Immediate Emergency Budget.

Housing market collapse.

Every household will be £4300 worse off.

 

Loads that I have already forgotten.

[The Renegade]

Investors starting to pull out of the EU in favour of the UK.

 

Quote

Investors are reconsidering the attractions of UK-listed equities relative to those in the euro zone for a combination of reasons.

 

At the same time, the re-emergence of political uncertainty in Italy and Spain has encouraged investors to reassess their euro zone holdings.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-stocks-deals/what-brexit-investors-warm-to-uk-stocks-as-ma-surges-idUSKCN1J30G8

 

What do these guys know that our resident remainers are blind to, or unwilling to see ?

[soalbundy]

17 minutes ago, transam said:

So what was it, expensive iPhones, home delivery curry's, class A drugs were becoming out of reach...Tell all...?

I don't know what you are on about, there have always been deprived areas in the UK, end of statement.

[Kieran00001]

20 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

You asked, and I answered.

 

Yet you have 'interpreted' this into "you have extrapolated your own feelings onto every single voter".

 

You go on to insist "Osborne's punishment budget could be taken as a Remain lie, however he was not on the Remain campaign team, he was voicing the opinion of the government who supported a remain vote, not Remain themselves.

 

So the govt. lying is ok???

 

 

How else could what you said be interpreted, you made an assertion about the reason people voted Leave, when asked you gave your personal reason and one that clearly makes little sense to the majority of Leave voters as they were not people from affluent areas who had recently witnessed less affluent areas, that was you.

 

No, the government lying is not OK, I was not trying to single Leave out, I was asking why you thought the Leave voters did so out for the reason you gave rather than out of having bought into the Leave campaign lies, a question you answered with a seriously failed logic which leaves me assuming you have no idea why people voted Leave, just why you did.

[The Renegade]

Quote

German factory have suffered their fourth drop in monthly orders in a row, raising fresh fears over the strength of Europe’s largest economy.

 

Industrial orders slumped by 2.5% in April, new figures from the Federal Statistics Office (Destatis) show.

This is the result of the ECB cutting QE to €30billion a month in January.

 

Guess what happens to the EZ when the EZ's biggest economy gets hammered because other EZ Countries do not have QE to buy German goods ?

[Kieran00001]

17 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

????

 

Where to start ??

 

Remain Government mouthpiece and sacked Chancellor.

 

Immediate recession.

Immediate Emergency Budget.

Housing market collapse.

Every household will be £4300 worse off.

 

Loads that I have already forgotten.

 

They were worst care scenarios and were presented as such, while the Leave campaign made pledges with imaginary money, how can you not grasp this?

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

They were worst care scenarios and were presented as such,

Just one word

 

B@llox

 

That is why he was sacked.

[soalbundy]

15 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

This is the result of the ECB cutting QE to €30billion a month in January.

 

Guess what happens to the EZ when the EZ's biggest economy gets hammered because other EZ Countries do not have QE to buy German goods ?

They bought German goods even before the common market and the DM was absurdly strong so I see no problem there. Yes orders have gone down but industrial output was always very high anyway, the MPI in Germany is still around 57, anything over 50 signals expansion so I don't think they will be running to the IMF anytime soon.

Edited June 7, 2018 by soalbundy

[Kieran00001]

10 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Just one word

 

B@llox

 

That is why he was sacked.

 

Nonsense, he was sacked by May as soon was made PM, she was hardly going to keep that incompetent as her chancellor especially considering he had tried to have her sacked before.

[tomacht8]

3 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Come back when you understand the difference between the European Parliament and the the European Commission.

 

Another remainer that knows nothing about about the EU, despite that being a charge that is often leveled at Leavers.

 

Another epic fail by the highly educated remainers.

Why be so offensive and degrading?

Sorry based on your question and your comparison with the uk election system, I had suspected that you do not know the difference. Apparently, you voted for pm May directly?

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

When BMW announced last year that its new Electric Mini would be built at its Oxford factory, it said that being able to market the car as “Made in Britain” was an enormous advantage to selling the car worldwide. Manufacturers in both the UK and the EU will have to deal with whatever trade deals are finally agreed, but ‘Made in Britain’ still has a lot of clout throughout the world markets, BMW believe so even if you don’t. Maybe you should try and find some love for your country.

 

 

 

You continually use the label “populist” in a derogatory manner towards anyone that stands outside the established consensus, as if calling for change was beyond the pale.

 

It is remarkably arrogant to assume that any present system of governance, anywhere, is beyond criticism and therefore immune to change.

 

Throughout history, populist’s have acted as agents of change; it was only 100 years ago this year, that universal suffrage for men became law, abolishing the need to be a property owner to vote. This franchised all men, including soldiers in barracks, and some women on a more limited basis. This discrimination was abolished 10 years later in 1928 when women received full universal suffrage.

 

Rather than sneer at populists, a more pragmatic and edifying approach might be to understand why the discontent exists, and perhaps remember that without populist’s you may not now have the privilege of voting   

Suffrage for all! Great idea ?

 

I posted a definition of populist and that is what I mean.

 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=populist

 

I understand fully the discontent. I also understand fully that the EU is NOT dthe cause of this. Neverthess populist lemmings are determined to drive us over a cliff edge to see if I am correct.

 

I can see BMW wish to keep the Mini's 60s chic so as not fall into the trap of believing that a marque like MG is worth  anything without the underlying associations. But, as I say, BMW will still ensure they retain EUR1 even if they have to source the ashtrays from Bulgaria!

 

Finally my family have always had a vote.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Grouse

[soalbundy]

Since the Mini was originally British and had a following as such it was decided to have the brand 'made in Britain' although I suspect most is made outside the UK, Britain is just the assembly plant, nothing to do with 'clout', same with Rolls Royce, designed and produced in Germany, assembled in the UK for the 'made in Britain' stamp. Nobody would want a Mercedes made in France for instance, in this case Germany belongs to the label just as Britain belongs to the label of Mini or Rolls Royce, it's just marketing. The designer by the way of the original Mini was Greek (OK British Greek ) Alec Issigonis.  

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I haven't read the article, but the headline you mention sounds about right to me.  UK politicians (IMO) are looking for a way to remain part of the eu, without being voted out at the next election.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but time will tell.

You are absolutely correct. All bright people know that remaining is the wisest way forward. The populists have created a problem for sure.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

25 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Suffrage for all! Great idea ?

 

I posted a definition of populist and that is what I mean.

 

I understand fully the discontent. I also understand fully that the EU is NOT dthe cause of this. Neverthess populist lemmings are determined to drive us over a cliff edge to see if I am correct.

 

Finally my family have always had a vote.

With respect, I don't think you have any understanding whatsoever about the discontent, if you believe the EU is not the cause of it.

 

All of the ‘populist’ parties that have seen a surge in support have been campaigning against uncontrolled immigration, and monetary policies that have seen the implosion of the economies of the Southern European members, leaving them with 30% youth unemployment as a result. They all seem to hold the EU responsible for these problems, even if you wish to remain in denial.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, aright said:

Yes I would agree. I heard an interesting slant on the respective voting I Q's from my pubs resident philosopher. It ran along the lines of " Of course the better educated voted remain, that's because the EU does far more for educated people than poor people"

I'm off to Portugal, back in a week.

Have a great time! Bring me some decent Port!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

My own 'reality' when I started working in a low paid area (Luton)....

 

I suddenly understood the misconceptions of those living in relatively wealthy areas.  It came as a horrible shock to discover the realities of life in deprived neighbourhoods.

 

Plus, I started working when pay was pretty good - and watched how pay (along with company pensions) were slowly lowered for those at the bottom - and then those on average salaries....

 

Of course there were leave lies, but the biggest lies came from the remain group!  Osborne's promised punishment budget immediately springs to mind ? ( and I suspect motivated more than a few previously 'not sure' voters to vote leave) and, of course, pretty much the entire bevy of 'experts' promising immediate Armageddon in the event of a leave vote....

Ah yes, Luton, an automotive manufacturing city; just like Munich or Stuttgart. What went wrong?

[The Renegade]

5 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

All of the ‘populist’ parties that have seen a surge in support have been campaigning against uncontrolled immigration, and monetary policies that have seen the implosion of the economies of the Southern European members, leaving them with 30% youth unemployment as a result. They all seem to hold the EU responsible for these problems, even if you wish to remain in denial

Europhiles, even if they know the truth, will never admit it.

 

Until their dying breath, the EU Project must be defended.

 

It matters not that poverty, homelessness, rampant youth employment, hidden debt and all sorts of other nasties are lurking about just under the surface.

 

Populists, all over the EU are wrong and Europhiles are correct.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Europhiles, even if they know the truth, will never admit it.

 

Until their dying breath, the EU Project must be defended.

 

It matters not that poverty, homelessness, rampant youth employment, hidden debt and all sorts of other nasties are lurking about just under the surface.

 

Populists, all over the EU are wrong and Europhiles are correct.

so destroy the EU and all that debt and poverty will disappear, I can't wait.