Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

 

 

I would agree that this is one of the most blatant lies told in the referendum as it is a half truth and deliberately misses off a crucial piece of information in that foreign and defence policy are still under the control of the U.K. government and therefore the setting up of a EU army would need their permission (and the permission of all member states since each of them hold a veto on this). That is not going to happen here or in many other E.U. countries who would never concede this power to Brussels.

The other big lies in the referendum were also lies of omission such as the infamous £350million on the side of the bus and the one about Turkey joining the E.U. which also forget to mention that the UK (and other E.U. members) had a veto over it - the poster below wouldn’t have the same impact if it correctly stated “but only if we say they can” on it.




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

All the E.U.countries have already signed up for the E.U army with the exception of Denmark,Malta, Ireland and Portugal, the latter two are expected to sign up within the next few months. To what is according to a senior German defence official, the inevitable.

 

 

As for Turkey, only time will tell, they already have special arrangements  with the E.U. The issue that is at present holding them back is Erdogan.

[Orac]

26 minutes ago, nontabury said:

All the E.U.countries have already signed up for the E.U army with the exception of Denmark,Malta, Ireland and Portugal, the latter two are expected to sign up within the next few months. To what is according to a senior German defence official, the inevitable.

 

 

As for Turkey, only time will tell, they already have special arrangements  with the E.U. The issue that is at present holding them back is Erdogan.

 

It is not an EU army and does not remove decision making power from the member states:

 

"However, participation remains voluntary, decision-making will remain in the hands of participating Member States and the specific character of the security and defence policy of all Member States is taken into account. "

 

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-Homepage/34226/permanent-structured-cooperation-pesco-factsheet_en

 

As for Turkey, yes time will tell, but it would still need ratifying by all member states so only happens if we agree to it unless, of course, we leave the EU and then agree to an interim deal which loses us our vote. 

Edited March 9, 2018 by Orac

[StreetCowboy]

9 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

It is not an EU army and does not remove decision making power from the member states:

 

"However, participation remains voluntary, decision-making will remain in the hands of participating Member States and the specific character of the security and defence policy of all Member States is taken into account. "

 

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-Homepage/34226/permanent-structured-cooperation-pesco-factsheet_en

 

As for Turkey, yes time will tell, but it would still need ratifying by all member states so only happens if we agree to it unless, of course, we leave the EU and then agree to an interim deal which loses us our vote. 

I expect we will need to agree reciprocal travel rights, so if we want visa-free access to France and Germany, then Turkey (if they join) will get visa-free access to the UK... if we were in the EU, we could have vetoed their membership.

 

Taking back control !

 

SC

[malagateddy]

No problem..WTR is the way forward..when eastern eu countries see that the UK cheque is NOT in the post..they will savage tusk.drunkard.barnier etc like a pack of feral wolves.

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, Orac said:

 

It is not an EU army and does not remove decision making power from the member states:

 

"However, participation remains voluntary, decision-making will remain in the hands of participating Member States and the specific character of the security and defence policy of all Member States is taken into account. "

 

https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-Homepage/34226/permanent-structured-cooperation-pesco-factsheet_en

 

As for Turkey, yes time will tell, but it would still need ratifying by all member states so only happens if we agree to it unless, of course, we leave the EU and then agree to an interim deal which loses us our vote. 

Article 42.2 of the agreement, provides for complete integration of all the E.U nations armed forces. While It does require the agreement of all member countries, the one country that is opposed to a E.U army is the U.K. .and of course when we leave this so called union, our agreement will no longer be required. Much to the relief of Junker and other important European leaders. Who have said the time for an E.U army has come, calling for it to be established by 2025.

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Article 42.2 of the agreement, provides for complete integration of all the E.U nations armed forces. While It does require the agreement of all member countries, the one country that is opposed to a E.U army is the U.K. .and of course when we leave this so called union, our agreement will no longer be required. Much to the relief of Junker and other important European leaders. Who have said the time for an E.U army has come, calling for it to be established by 2025.

That will give them good purchasing power.  

[malagateddy]

Please remember why the late Tony Benn was very much against the eu
1. Where does the eu get their powers from.
2. In whose interests do you use these powers.
3. To whom are you accountable to.
4. How do we get rid of you.

Wise questions from a wise man who along with Enoch Powell and Bill Cash saw through the lies and deceipt of many other politicians.
You only have to remember the words of the late Jean Monnet!!

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[StreetCowboy]

16 minutes ago, malagateddy said:

Please remember why the late Tony Benn was very much against the eu
1. Where does the eu get their powers from.
2. In whose interests do you use these powers.
3. To whom are you accountable to.
4. How do we get rid of you.

Wise questions from a wise man who along with Enoch Powell and Bill Cash saw through the lies and deceipt of many other politicians.
You only have to remember the words of the late Jean Monnet!!

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Remembering is not enough.  You have to repeat them, for the benefit of those who have not heard them

 

edit: just noticed: is a deceipt like a ticket for something you’ve lost or given away?  Like the opposite of a receipt?

Edited March 9, 2018 by StreetCowboy

[Orac]

Article 42.2 of the agreement, provides for complete integration of all the E.U nations armed forces. While It does require the agreement of all member countries, the one country that is opposed to a E.U army is the U.K. .and of course when we leave this so called union, our agreement will no longer be required. Much to the relief of Junker and other important European leaders. Who have said the time for an E.U army has come, calling for it to be established by 2025.

If the E.U. want an army then up to them. If you think U.K. forces would serve in an EU army without the express permission of the U.K. government even if we were to remain connected to them in some way then you seem to have a poor judgement of them.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Orac]

I’m sorry, why do you say that. Do you not understand that is exactly what has been happening over the last few decades. I like many people voted in 1975 for a trading  bloc called the EEC, no way did I envisage what was to transpire. The change into the E.U by means of the Maastricht and Lisbon so called agreements,was certainly done underhand, in order to create a federation. Thankfully the British people finally woke up to this deceit and rejected this so called union. So yes the future is bright.
 
 

How can it be underhand - this quote from Jean Monnet was made before we joined the EEC.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Khun Han]

1 minute ago, Orac said:

 

How can it be underhand - this quote from Jean Monnet was made before we joined the EEC.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

But the quote wasn't exactly well-publicised back in 1975, and we didn't have the internet back then, so doing your own research was out of the question for most people.

[Scott]

A post with a fake quote that is also unattributed has been removed along with replies.  

 

[sandyf]

On 3/8/2018 at 6:35 PM, soalbundy said:

My sister says they have yellow books, don't know if that's a passport, she exports to Indonesia. When they moved the cows finally the government wanted to know about any weed killers that had been used on the new land and came down to inspect it first. Really ! why all this interest in cows? It isn't a bad idea to know where your animals are grazing and being kept and what quality of animal you are exporting. For everything there are rules.

In Barnier's speech he stated that animal control regulations must be the same on each side of an open border otherwise it is not viable and a hard border would be required.

Like many other points on brexit, if someone does not like it, it gets taken off at a tangent.

[sandyf]

On 3/9/2018 at 7:49 AM, Grouse said:

Google is my friend

 

Under the Malta Independence Act, passed by the British Parliament in 1964, Malta gained independence from the United Kingdom as the State of Malta, with Elizabeth IIas its head of state and queen.^[21] The country became a republic in 1974. It has been a member state of the Commonwealth of Nations and the United Nations since independence, and joined the European Union in 2004; in 2008, it became part of the Eurozone.

I was at RAF Luqa in 1975 and it was still a major operational unit at that time, not quite sure when they completed the withdrawal. Been there many times, last was about 2 years ago and the infrastructure has improved dramatically since joining the EU but suffered the inevitable rise in prices, now on a par with the UK beer wise but more expensive for food.

[dick dasterdly]

Chaos was always going to be the result when the vast majority of uk politicians support 'remain' - especially when the govt. hadn't even bothered to think about a 'leave' result!

 

We're left with a new PM who (quietly) supported remain/a majority of politicians that support remain - and an eu bureaucracy that is determined not to change their profligacy (if it affects their own power/wealth).... 

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Chaos was always going to be the result when the vast majority of uk politicians support 'remain' - especially when the govt. hadn't even bothered to think about a 'leave' result!

 

We're left with a new PM who (quietly) supported remain/a majority of politicians that support remain - and an eu bureaucracy that is determined not to change their profligacy (if it affects their own power/wealth).... 

Maybe time to stop pointing at others? The brexiteers have had plenty of time to come up with a plan, but nothing. There was no plan to begin with, and there still is no plan.

[Khun Han]

12 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Maybe time to stop pointing at others? The brexiteers have had plenty of time to come up with a plan, but nothing. There was no plan to begin with, and there still is no plan.

 

You missed the point. Brexiters can't actually do anything much. That's the job of the government and civil service, and most of them are remainers at heart.

[malagateddy]

Cameron and his remaining crew were oh so confident of winning the referendum vote that they did not bother to plan ahead.
Do not blaim the UK negotiating team..blame cameron osborne etc etc.
But have no fear ... WTR IS THE WAY TO GO
You can imagine the feral wolf-pack of eastern europe countries who will run amok with likes of barnier.tusk.drunkard etc[emoji6][emoji23][emoji6]

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[aright]

Are people starting to realise what the EU is all about? 

 

The EU, like so many self-righteous institutions, has been exposed

as a grubby old boys club

 

https://uk.news.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=AwrJS9fH9aRaeEQAISRLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTE0cGs5cThkBGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDVUlVS0MwMV8xBHNlYwNzYw--?p=The+EU+like+so+many+self-righteous+institutions&fr=yfp-t&fr2=cosmos

 

 

[Grouse]

On 10/03/2018 at 3:39 PM, Khun Han said:

 

You missed the point. Brexiters can't actually do anything much. That's the job of the government and civil service, and most of them are remainers at heart.

Of course they are ?

[sirineou]

On 3/10/2018 at 3:39 AM, Khun Han said:

 

You missed the point. Brexiters can't actually do anything much. That's the job of the government and civil service, and most of them are remainers at heart.

 If what you say is true then

Does the fact that those on a position to know  want to remain , tells you something?

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 If what you say is true then

Does the fact that those on a position to know  want to remain , tells you something?

I read this on Twitter (@martindvz)

 

Saying Brexit wil make us poorer:

97% of academics

All of big business (CBI)

Every former PM alive

IMF

World Bank

Every major bank

HM Treasury

 

Saying Brexit is great:

Boris Johnson (proven liar)

Nigel Farage (proven liar)

JR Mogg (proven liar)

[aright]

15 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I read this on Twitter (@martindvz)

 

Saying Brexit wil make us poorer:

97% of academics

All of big business (CBI)

Every former PM alive

IMF

World Bank

Every major bank

HM Treasury

 

Saying Brexit is great:

Boris Johnson (proven liar)

Nigel Farage (proven liar)

JR Mogg (proven liar)

I read this. Funny old world isn't it.

• 
   

 

 

 

Gloomy Treasury forecasts that predict Brexit will be an economic disaster are ‘flawed’, Cambridge researchers warn today.

A study by the university’s Centre for Business Research raises serious questions over predictions by government officials, academic bodies, the IMF and the OECD.

They say most estimates of the economic impact of the Leave vote are based on modelling that exaggerates the negative effects. The study, published today, is titled How the Economics Profession Got it Wrong on Brexit and says Treasury forecasts before and after the referendum were too pessimistic.

Researchers say the assumption about the degree of uncertainty caused by the Brexit vote was arbitrary and wrong

 

[RuamRudy]

33 minutes ago, aright said:

I read this. Funny old world isn't it.

• 
   

 

 

 

Gloomy Treasury forecasts that predict Brexit will be an economic disaster are ‘flawed’, Cambridge researchers warn today.

A study by the university’s Centre for Business Research raises serious questions over predictions by government officials, academic bodies, the IMF and the OECD.

They say most estimates of the economic impact of the Leave vote are based on modelling that exaggerates the negative effects. The study, published today, is titled How the Economics Profession Got it Wrong on Brexit and says Treasury forecasts before and after the referendum were too pessimistic.

Researchers say the assumption about the degree of uncertainty caused by the Brexit vote was arbitrary and wrong

 

To be fair, your post says that the forecasts are 'too pessimistic' - i.e. disputing the extent of the pessimism, not whether pessimism is an unreasonable mood for what lies ahead.

Edited March 11, 2018 by RuamRudy

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, sirineou said:

 If what you say is true then

Does the fact that those on a position to know  want to remain , tells you something?

Yes, most people seem to be of the opinion that all politicians are self-serving money grabbers, who do not have the best interests of the country at heart. Civil servants advise the politicians to behave like this.

Edited March 11, 2018 by nauseus

[StreetCowboy]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, most people seem to be of the opinion that all politicians are self-serving money grabbers. who do not have the best interests of the country at heart. Civil servants advise the politicians to behave like this.

Luckily we have the proven liars to look after our best interests.  What could possibly go wrong?

[nauseus]

57 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I read this on Twitter (@martindvz)

 

Saying Brexit wil make us poorer:

97% of academics

All of big business (CBI)

Every former PM alive

IMF

World Bank

Every major bank

HM Treasury

 

Saying Brexit is great:

Boris Johnson (proven liar)

Nigel Farage (proven liar)

JR Mogg (proven liar)

Where were these "liar" cases proven? In the RuamRudy Court of Justice?

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Yes, most people seem to be of the opinion that all politicians are self-serving money grabbers, who do not have the best interests of the country at heart. Civil servants advise the politicians to behave like this.

 But if that was the case why would they want to give a lot of their   power to EU?

[aright]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

To be fair, your post says that the forecasts are 'too pessimistic' - i.e. disputing the extent of the pessimism, not whether pessimism is a unreasonable mood for what lies ahead.

To be fair my post referred to a study by the Cambridge centre for Business Research your post referred to something you read on Twitter.

[nauseus]

Just now, sirineou said:

 But if that was the case why would they want to give a lot of their   power to EU?

Read it again. Time for my dwinky.