Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Eloquent pilgrim]

3 minutes ago, adammike said:

You were doing fine then you post nonsense like that.

You on the other hand weren't doing fine, it did not however prevent you from posting nonsense

[aright]

15 minutes ago, adammike said:

You were doing fine then you post nonsense like that.

I find many contributors in the Guardian are as loony left as their counterparts in the Mail are raving right. 

It's a case of irrational left vs irrational right.

What irrational are you...… Guardian I suspect.

[tebee]

Ah  ! A conservative I can agree with !!! Dr Phillip Lee in his ministerial resignation statement says :-

 

"In extensive consultations with local employers, both large and small, I have been warned that they expect Brexit as it is currently being pursued, whatever the negotiated settlement, will damage their business. I have spoken to people, many of whom have lived, worked and raised their family here, whose fears for their futures I am not always able to allay. Regrettably, it seems inevitable that the people, economy and culture of my constituency will be affected negatively, and I cannot ignore that it is to them that I owe my first responsibility. "

 

He goes on to say 

 

" The practicalities, logistics and implications of leaving the EU are far more complex than was ever envisaged and certainly more complex than the people were told in 2016. The UK is not going to be ready in time, neither is the EU, and both would suffer from a rushed or fudged agreement."

 

Basically it will be impossible to get a sensible deal in the remaining time, we need to step back and consider what we want   instead of charging on regardless. 

 

http://www.phillip-lee.com/uncategorized/ministerial-resignation-statement/

[nauseus]

11 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Away with you and your Brexiter revisionism:

 

The demonization of immigrants (all immigrants) was a central point in the Right Wing press supporting Brexit.

Nice to demonstrate such a balanced opinion! 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

Ok, look at these percentages that voted Leave:

 

70% of Sun readers

70% of Daily Express readers

66% of Daily Mail readers

22% of FT Readers

10% of Guardian readers

 

This is a just sample set of newspapers.  There would also have been lots of people who don't read any newspapers voting Leave.  17.4m people voted to Leave the EU. According to your logic that number should be a lot higher.

 

 

 

I could draw other conclusions but I will spare you ?

 

How many Viz readers voted for Brexit ?

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Ah  ! A conservative I can agree with !!! Dr Phillip Lee in his ministerial resignation statement says :-

 

"In extensive consultations with local employers, both large and small, I have been warned that they expect Brexit as it is currently being pursued, whatever the negotiated settlement, will damage their business. I have spoken to people, many of whom have lived, worked and raised their family here, whose fears for their futures I am not always able to allay. Regrettably, it seems inevitable that the people, economy and culture of my constituency will be affected negatively, and I cannot ignore that it is to them that I owe my first responsibility. "

 

He goes on to say 

 

" The practicalities, logistics and implications of leaving the EU are far more complex than was ever envisaged and certainly more complex than the people were told in 2016. The UK is not going to be ready in time, neither is the EU, and both would suffer from a rushed or fudged agreement."

 

Basically it will be impossible to get a sensible deal in the remaining time, we need to step back and consider what we want   instead of charging on regardless. 

 

http://www.phillip-lee.com/uncategorized/ministerial-resignation-statement/

I've been watching BBC Parliament. Excellent speeches. Recommended. Lee was good.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Nice to demonstrate such a balanced opinion! 

Correct though. Shameful the way England has become so intolerant 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, tebee said:

Ah  ! A conservative I can agree with !!! Dr Phillip Lee in his ministerial resignation statement says :-

 

"In extensive consultations with local employers, both large and small, I have been warned that they expect Brexit as it is currently being pursued, whatever the negotiated settlement, will damage their business. I have spoken to people, many of whom have lived, worked and raised their family here, whose fears for their futures I am not always able to allay. Regrettably, it seems inevitable that the people, economy and culture of my constituency will be affected negatively, and I cannot ignore that it is to them that I owe my first responsibility. "

 

He goes on to say 

 

" The practicalities, logistics and implications of leaving the EU are far more complex than was ever envisaged and certainly more complex than the people were told in 2016. The UK is not going to be ready in time, neither is the EU, and both would suffer from a rushed or fudged agreement."

 

Basically it will be impossible to get a sensible deal in the remaining time, we need to step back and consider what we want   instead of charging on regardless. 

 

http://www.phillip-lee.com/uncategorized/ministerial-resignation-statement/

Otherwise translated as, "I want us to stay in the EU, I'm not getting my way, so I'm leaving in a strop"

 

Don't remainers always tell us it's better to stay in and fight for change?

 

[notmyself]

 

I'm not sure there was any real opposition after Maastricht as Mr Hannon says but rather it was the imposition of the Lisbon treaty that caused call for the leave referendum.

 

 

[7by7]

8 hours ago, The Renegade said:

It applies to the UK because Illegals are lining up in various places throughout the EU looking for a way to Illegally enter the UK

 

I do not know how I can make that any simpler for you to understand.

 

Do you really think that Illegals give 2 hoots about

 

 

 

8 hours ago, 7by7 said:

You can repeat the lie that the EU controls non EEA national immigration, legal and illegal, to the UK as often as you wish; but lie it is.

 

[CG1 Blue]

18 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I could draw other conclusions but I will spare you ?

 

How many Viz readers voted for Brexit ?

My mate who's a lefty and ardent remainer worships Viz. I'm afraid he's the only example I have

[7by7]

8 hours ago, transam said:

I will ask you (7by7) again a little different..

 

Why does LOS write on a Visa NON immigrant...Why not leave it blank with just quote dates allowed  to stay...?

 A question you should direct to the Thai MFA, not I; assuming you actually want an answer and are not merely clutching at straws.

 

Doesn't change the fact that until they have ILR non EEA nationals, and presumably post Brexit EEA nationals as well, living in the UK have to regularly renew their leave to remain. Even after they have ILR, their permission to stay is indefinite, not permanent.

 

I see there is a topic in the Thai visas forum about alternatives to visa runs. Of course, visa runs are not an option for immigrants living in the UK.

 

[7by7]

8 hours ago, The manic said:

I'm an expat. No right to vote, hold political office or own land. Just as I was an expat in Saudi, Kuwait etc. 

You think all immigrants in the UK can vote and hold political office?

 

If so, you're wrong.

 

Types of election, referendums, and who can vote.

 

I'll concede foreigners can own land in the UK, though; even if they are not resident.

 

But that's not something anyone can blame on the EU; although with his fondness for Brexiteer lies and myths The Renegade may try!

 

 

[7by7]

7 hours ago, The manic said:

<snip>

Every immigrant I have known has the right to vote, to work, to stand for parliament,  to be in the house of lords, to be mayors, councillors, magistrates. 

 Then every immigrant you have known. presumably in the UK, must either have been Irish, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or lived in the UK long enough to have been naturalised as British! 

[7by7]

8 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't all bad news. The UK used to export labourers and construction site workers to Germany, it gave rise to one of the UK's best sit-coms.

 

7 hours ago, The manic said:

Ah yes. The boys from the black stuff. 

 

7 hours ago, PREM-R said:

'fraid not.... guess again.... I'll give you a clue....AUF...…

 Indeed, from the days when it was British workers exercising their treaty rights in Germany.

 

I wonder if the ardent anti EU and all it's works Brexiteers here disagreed with their right to so do.

 

Somehow I doubt it. Somehow I think they believe that, like the rights of the 1.5 million plus British citizens currently exercising a treaty right in other EEA states, EU rights, regulations etc. which work to the advantage of the UK and British citizens are wonderful and must be retained post Brexit.

[The manic]

Just now, 7by7 said:

 Then every immigrant you have known. presumably in the UK, must either have been Irish, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or lived in the UK long enough to have been naturalised as British! 

Not an illegal criminal you mean?..er yes. I've been mixing with immigrant for 60 years since I was five.  Who are you talking about? People who paid traffickers to jump the queue,  invade lorries, burn tires, ? 

[nauseus]

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I did not make a mistake when I chose to use the term 'Readership' (which by convention is expressed as a monthly figure).

 

You made a mistake, deliberately or otherwise referring to 'Circulation' when addressing my comments regarding 'Readership', you do so again above. 

 

I've admitted my error and thanked you for correcting my claim that the DM readership is 17,000,000 (the actual 'Readership' is a little over 13,000,000).

 

You've made an error yourself, I was discussing 'Readership' your references to 'Circulation' grossly underestimate 'Readership'.

 

Are you man enough to admit your mistake?

 

[Edit] Once again you make this totally unfounded claim regarding my citizenship. You have absolutely no evidence to back up the claims you are making regarding this matter. 

 

 

These CYA's just get worse. Monthly convention. Or monthly invention?

[7by7]

7 hours ago, nontabury said:

 I don’t understand your response to his experience. Because there are thousands of would be illegal immigrants in Calais,  who are trying in enter the land of milk and honey, you seem to assume that therefore very few are successful. Yet according to statements by government departments, plus from many organizations including those sympathetic to their plight, there are upwards of 1 million illegal immigrants in the U.K.

 

  However None of this is applicable to Brexit, as those would be illegal immigrants(economic migrants) are originally from outside the E.U.

 So you don't understand asking someone with actual experience of a subject a question about that subject? How strange.

 

Let my try and aid your understanding: I make no assumptions, I look for facts. That is why I asked a question of someone with actual, real experience of the matter.

 

Do you understand now?

 

But as you say  it is not relevant to Brexit as it is not an EU matter. As repeatedly said, the EU has no control over the UK's immigration rules and the enforcement of those rules.

 

Which is why I have to aske the Brexiteers why they keep bringing it up and blaming it on the EU!

[nauseus]

57 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Correct though. Shameful the way England has become so intolerant 

If you bear in mind the significant circulation of this paper, like it or not, the opinions of it are obviously read and shared by a significant portion of the public. Probably better than having them expressed by other means.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

No I did not simply  state 13,000,000 people regularly read the Daily Mail.

I gave reference to a report from ‘statistica’ that indicates 13,000,000 people regularly read the Daily Mail.

 

‘Statistica’ you will note was first used as a reference in this discussion by Renegade, unfortunately he, like you, doesn’t understand that in the age of the internet ‘News Paper Distribution’ is not the same thing as ‘Readership’.

 

The former grossly under represents the latter.

 

Key words change with every wiggle. ?

[The manic]

Just now, nauseus said:

If you bear in mind the significant circulation of this paper, like it or not, the opinions of it are obviously read and shared by a significant portion of the public. Probably better than having them expressed by other means.

After 50 years of unchecked immigration I believe it is a certain religious group who are intolerant us us , hate our freedom,  hate gays, Christians and Jews, hate women's rights,  hate democracy.  The DM is irrelevant given the mass propaganda campaign by schools,  universities, the BBC etc ...people became 'woke' to the culturally and economic rape of the UK....but the 'woke' did not count because they were working class, or hetero or because their family members died defending the country and the NHS and the TU movement orcwhite..but what the point now...Tommy Robinson and Gert belter speak for us now...which is why they have been silenced. The liberals are the new nazis...

[7by7]

6 hours ago, nontabury said:

It does’t Say “long time visitor” on my wife’s passport, it says visa- “Spouse of xxxxx”and then on the attached UKVI 01 permission to stay 33 months,initially. Adding that this is part of the route to a 5 yr permanent settlement ( British passport). No where on the documents is there a requirement to regularly attend an immigration office, or to provide evidence of earnings each year. It does say she can obtain employment, allthough no access to public funds.

No where does it say none- immigrant, as it did on my passport, during my 20yrs in Thailand.

 I can only assume that you,being such a special  person, have been given a  different permission to remain in Thailand than the rest of us foreigners.

 

 Your wife currently has permission to stay in the UK for 33 months because she is your spouse. 

 

At the end of that time she has to apply, and pay, to extend her stay for a further 30 months (Further Leave to Remain). If she and you do not meet all of the requirements for this, including the financial and language ones, she will be refused FLR and have to leave.

 

If she does get FLR then at the end of that 30 months she has to apply, and pay, for ILR; again meeting all the requirements. If she doesn't, then she will be refused and have to leave. Although if all she fails to meet is the language requirement then she can apply, and pay again for, another 30 month FLR.

 

Once she has ILR, it can be removed if she is convicted of an offence which carries a penalty of imprisonment. It will also lapse if she leaves the UK for a continuous period of two years or more or if UK Border Force at a port of entry have reason to believe she is no longer a UK resident and is using her ILR just for visits.

 

I wont mention the cost of all the necessary applications, NHS surcharges, test fees which have to be paid. How long would one have to live in Thailand to pay the equivalent, I wonder.

 

 

[7by7]

6 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

There are three ways immigration is measured in the UK; the ONS measures and extrapolates a sample of immigration and emigration and does include students, the Home Office which measures long term settlement of non-EU migrants and does not include students, and the census, which also does not include students.

 

Students are included in the Home Office's figures

Quote

Quarterly and annual statistics relating to those: coming to the UK; extending their stay (temporarily or permanently); gaining citizenship; applying for asylum; and being detained or removed, as well as immigration for work, study and family reasons.

 

Under the Census Act anyone who was in the UK on the date of the census and has lived, or intends to live, in the UK for three months or more must be included. The 2011 census also asked immigrants of all categories their date of arrival in the UK and how long they intended to stay.

[7by7]

6 hours ago, nontabury said:

E.U. Immigrants are allowed to vote in local elections. Or at least I think so.

 

6 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Correct

 

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/208184/EU-Citizens-and-voting-in-the-UK.pdf

 

And the relevant EU regulation means that British residents in other EU countries can vote in their local elections.

 

Like the freedom of movement directive; it works both ways.

 

 

[7by7]

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

<snip>

I’m very disappointed in this reply from you, I mentioned a conversation I had with a lady whose husband is a farm worker, working under E.U rules in 2018, yet all you can come up with is a load of Waffle, regarding historical events

I'm sorry that you are offended by my use of historical data to set up my arguments in support of my opinion on the present situation. I can only surmise that you regard this as waffle because it destroys your arguments.

 

3 hours ago, nontabury said:

<Snip>

Regarding your assertion that the U.K leaving the E.U. will result in fruit being left to rot on our farms. This again is part of the remainers scare stories. There will be no reason for an independent U.K government to not issue temporary visa’s for seasonal workers from anywhere in the world to enter the U.K

 Not my assertion, that of the National Farmers Union, which you would have known had you read the linked to article; although a stupid typo meant I said NUM instead.

 

That is why the NFU is calling for the implementation of something very similar to the old SAWS (sorry, history again!) to encourage European farm workers to come again to the UK.

 

Most of the unquoted parts of your post are Brexit waffle.

 

[7by7]

58 minutes ago, The manic said:

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Then every immigrant you have known. presumably in the UK, must either have been Irish, a qualifying Commonwealth citizen or lived in the UK long enough to have been naturalised as British

Not an illegal criminal you mean?..er yes. I've been mixing with immigrant for 60 years since I was five.  Who are you talking about? People who paid traffickers to jump the queue,  invade lorries, burn tires, ? 

 

What on earth are you going on about? My post was in response to you saying that every immigrant you had known could vote, stand for Parliament etc.! I was talking about those immigrants who can do those things.

 

Are you saying that you believe all immigrants other than those I listed are illegal criminals?

[beautifulthailand99]

On 6/11/2018 at 2:45 PM, Grouse said:

Bye bye everybody bye bye!

 

I will come back when there is something interesting to discuss.

 

Puerile banter just doesn't appeal.

 

BTW did you attend a debating society at your university?

Grouse I'm surprised you've lasted as long as you have trying tactfully to educate some of Uk's deplorables.....you have my sympathy if you take away your ball and leave the thread to mindless memes and foaming ill-formed nationalism toxically combined with Rees-Mogg cap-doffery....

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, CG1 Blue said:

My mate who's a lefty and ardent remainer worships Viz. I'm afraid he's the only example I have

He's clearly an intellectual!

[beautifulthailand99]

5 hours ago, tebee said:

Oddly enough I used to read the Mail for many years, I quite liked it's mid-brow approach then and wanted to get my news from a source I disagreed with politically, to avoid confirmation bias. Oh and I liked the Flook cartoon( showing my age there now!) 

 

It did eventually get to the point where I couldn't   take it anymore and the paper seemed to be dumbing down anyway, but it greatly helped my critical thinking skills. 

it's those salacious side bar come ones I can't resist where some z-list celeb flaunts her ample assets in a teeny red  thong type headlines

[beautifulthailand99]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

He's clearly an intellectual!