7 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

This is political theater. 

 

Putting a de facto leader of one of the main opposition groups on trial ahead of a promised election is nothing more than political theater.

 

Is Thaksin guilty of many things? Almost certainly. Is this "trial" designed to adjudicate the question of innocence or guilt in a fair and unbiased manner? Well, no.

 

Honestly, I think this just helps Thaksin. He isn't coming back, and so putting him on trial under military rule just heightens his image and adds to his popularity; being put on trial (again) by the military is a badge of honour for many.

 

This is "shooting yourself in the foot 101". What a waste of time and resources...

 

 

Perhaps, but as all things here, the timing is to suit certain people.

 

Having said that, there was certainly absolutely no will whatsoever under PTP to do anything about the outstanding court cases. And PTP would have made sure the BiB, DSI under their "friend" Tarit etc weren't remotely interested. No PTP were spending most of their time and energy trying to wipe the slate clean for him and make him untouchable.

 

As usual translating words into actions just doesn't seem to happen, and multi billionaires have enough money to ensure nothing does that effects them. So yes, it's unlikely to have any effect.

 

Btw - you should read about the rising interest globally on trials in absentia for corrupt ex leaders and politicians.

35 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Thaksin certainly abused the judicial system and its agencies (mostly for personal aggrandizement) but the crucial distinction between that time and subsequently was the mobilization of courts/agencies for political ends, as part of the arsenal to frustrate or destroy popular democracy.It is hopelessly naive to suggest that its just a matter of - "what goes on now went on then".

 

As to the latest charge it's simply the old order's desperate attempt to keep the bogeyman in the public eye - as though that could save them.

Courts/agencies have always been prone to being mobilized for political ends. The fact that now it's to thwart popular democracy (amongst other things of course), whereas before it was to thwart things like evidence of malpractice, corruption, criminal activity and to undermine or destroy political opponents, makes a difference, but not really a big one, because in the end, it's all anti-democratic practice, even if less directly.

 

27 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Courts/agencies have always been prone to being mobilized for political ends. The fact that now it's to thwart popular democracy (amongst other things of course), whereas before it was to thwart things like evidence of malpractice, corruption, criminal activity and to undermine or destroy political opponents, makes a difference, but not really a big one, because in the end, it's all anti-democratic practice, even if less directly.

 

 

Which is why a democracy, any kind of democracy, must have an independent robust impartial justice system. Without that everything is corruptible and misused by those intent on benefiting themselves by whatever means necessary.

 

 

7 hours ago, tifino said:

at least the political refugee is welcome to stay safe, wherever else in the world he wants!

... because he's welcomed to...

 

He isn't a political refugee. His billions and billions, some of which he undoubtedly acquired questionably, make him welcome especially in the poorer countries who happily sell their citizenship or those countries where backhanders and 'gratuities" are de rigeur. 

 

Private plane, billions and billions of money, does tend to make you more welcome strangely enough.

6 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

"If found guilty..."

 

"...If..."  

 

Respectfully, do you think there is a chance he will be found 'not guilty'?

 

 

 

 

If you've read any of those cases, do you think there is the a chance he wasn't guilty?

 

If only all who were similarly guilty of such infractions were treated the same. Now that is not likely to have a chance.

 

A freindly reminder to those who dont tow the line: See! we'll hound you for ever more...

Taksin would wipe the floor with Suthep and Prayut in any open free election and everbody knows it.

7 hours ago, tifino said:

 

but they make him out to be the 'Shame of the Jungle'

and keeps him away from Thailand. He will never return while there is a valid warrant for his arrest. He is too much of a coward.

Courts/agencies have always been prone to being mobilized for political ends. The fact that now it's to thwart popular democracy (amongst other things of course), whereas before it was to thwart things like evidence of malpractice, corruption, criminal activity and to undermine or destroy political opponents, makes a difference, but not really a big one, because in the end, it's all anti-democratic practice, even if less directly.
 

Both are bad but they are not the same, and you are wrong to attempt to conflate both into anti democratic practice.The courts were given orders to frustrate and undermine Thailand’s fragile electoral democracy - and that’s the issue now.


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20 minutes ago, kaorop said:

 

A freindly reminder to those who dont tow the line: See! we'll hound you for ever more...

Taksin would wipe the floor with Suthep and Prayut in any open free election and everbody knows it.

Not really saying much though is it.

 

Take away Thaksin's resources and put him up against someone new, fresh and charismatic.. someone who actually gives a flying fig about the poor, and who doesn't just use them for personal gain... someone who has an actual vision of betterment for the country as a whole, and who can inspire others... the day that person comes along, is the day all the old political dinosaurs get what's coming to them.

4 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Both are bad but they are not the same, and you are wrong to attempt to conflate both into anti democratic practice.The courts were given orders to frustrate and undermine Thailand’s fragile electoral democracy - and that’s the issue now.


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They are both anti-democratic. Just one is more overt than the other.

They are both anti-democratic. Just one is more overt than the other.

Repetition of an error does not make it less incorrect.


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18 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Repetition of an error does not make it less incorrect.


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Suggest you stop repeating it then.

It must be time for Comedy Central.    <queue the canned laughter>

4 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Suggest you stop repeating it then.

It might suit your prejudices to equate an assault on democracy with old style corruption, but it doesn't make any sense.Judicial activism along with military coups (and outright violence if necessary) form the arsenal of the old order.That is completely different from the abuses of Thaksin and others.

10 hours ago, webfact said:

In their lawsuit filed against Thaksin, public prosecutors also accused him of acting in conflict of interest while serving as prime minister between 2001 and 2006, in addition to malfeasance and negligence.

See if I have got this right....

A legally elected government passes a bill (majority vote)......which may or may not favor Shin Corporation.....And now more than ten 10 years later a non-elected government decides to press charges against the democratically elected leader as a person....not the members of parliament who voted for the bill, but only the party leader (who BTW is the only elected PM, who has done a full 4 years term since 1932).

Ironically the big winners in the case of converting to the excise tax payment system (the bill in question here) are the two state owned telecom companies CAT and TOT, who probably would be bankrupt today, if the old revenue-sharing system was kept in place.

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

It might suit your prejudices to equate an assault on democracy with old style corruption, but it doesn't make any sense.Judicial activism along with military coups (and outright violence if necessary) form the arsenal of the old order.That is completely different from the abuses of Thaksin and others.

"Old style corruption" as you call it, was all about doing all you needed to do, to undermine political and business rivals, and to hold on to power at all cost. That you think those acts of "old style corruption" did not equate to an "assault on democracy", albeit in a less obvious manner than we see today, speaks to your own well-established prejudices.

19 minutes ago, jayboy said:

It might suit your prejudices to equate an assault on democracy with old style corruption, but it doesn't make any sense.Judicial activism along with military coups (and outright violence if necessary) form the arsenal of the old order.That is completely different from the abuses of Thaksin and others.

Well it might suit the 'I don't like Thaksin, but....' hypocrites to ignore the violent & anti-democratic stance of the Shin clan. From the 'war on drugs' to the red shirt militias, there's been a lot more Thais murdered, injured & disappeared by & during so-called democratic governments than in the last 3 coups.

You may remember Thakin's self-quoted aim was not democracy.

 

Apart from the 3-digit lottery case, the others are serious allegations of fraud & it's a pity that swift changes to the 49% (from 25%) foreign ownership to benefit AIS's sale to Singtel - isn't one of the charges.

9 minutes ago, rixalex said:

"Old style corruption" as you call it, was all about doing all you needed to do, to undermine political and business rivals, and to hold on to power at all cost. That you think those acts of "old style corruption" did not equate to an "assault on democracy", albeit in a less obvious manner than we see today, speaks to your own well-established prejudices.

Undermining political rivals - as you put it - can mean inspiring one's supporters and presenting a set of policies to the electorate which are more popular/relevant than those of your opponents.That's not corruption:that's democracy in action.Or do you think Obama, Merkel, Macron etc are also "corrupt"?

 

As to corruption in business of course it's unacceptable that political leaders should exploit their position (very much so so in Thaksin's case)

 

All successful politicians tend to want to hold on to power.Some are limited by terms as in the US.But everywhere the pendulum eventually swings against them.

 

But no rational unprejudiced observer would accept that the arrogant contempt for the Thai electorate shown in the post Thaksin era was other than sui generis.

 

2 minutes ago, khunken said:

Well it might suit the 'I don't like Thaksin, but....' hypocrites to ignore the violent & anti-democratic stance of the Shin clan. From the 'war on drugs' to the red shirt militias, there's been a lot more Thais murdered, injured & disappeared by & during so-called democratic governments than in the last 3 coups.

You may remember Thakin's self-quoted aim was not democracy.

 

Apart from the 3-digit lottery case, the others are serious allegations of fraud & it's a pity that swift changes to the 49% (from 25%) foreign ownership to benefit AIS's sale to Singtel - isn't one of the charges.

The last three coups..

 

Has it only been THREE?

 

Since Thaksin failed to return?

 

Hmmm..only three-my how time crawls.

3 minutes ago, khunken said:

Well it might suit the 'I don't like Thaksin, but....' hypocrites to ignore the violent & anti-democratic stance of the Shin clan. From the 'war on drugs' to the red shirt militias, there's been a lot more Thais murdered, injured & disappeared by & during so-called democratic governments than in the last 3 coups.

You may remember Thakin's self-quoted aim was not democracy.

 

Apart from the 3-digit lottery case, the others are serious allegations of fraud & it's a pity that swift changes to the 49% (from 25%) foreign ownership to benefit AIS's sale to Singtel - isn't one of the charges.

Here we go again.War on drugs diversion.Ignore.

 

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Undermining political rivals - as you put it - can mean inspiring one's supporters and presenting a set of policies to the electorate which are more popular/relevant than those of your opponents.That's not corruption:that's democracy in action.Or do you think Obama, Merkel, Macron etc are also "corrupt"?

 

If the undermining of political rivals that we are talking about only amounted to, "inspiring one's supporters and presenting a set of policies to the electorate which are more popular/relevant than those of your opponents", then you would have a salient point. It doesn't and you don't.   

Copies of the arrest warrant and the indictment had been posted at Thaksin’s house in the Charoen Sanitwong area of Bangkok, notifying him of the start of the trial yesterday.

 

How does Thaksin still have a house in Bangkok? I thought all his assets were seized?

 

 

8 minutes ago, rixalex said:

If the undermining of political rivals that we are talking about only amounted to, "inspiring one's supporters and presenting a set of policies to the electorate which are more popular/relevant than those of your opponents", then you would have a salient point. It doesn't and you don't.   

In that case the onus is on you to define more precisely what you mean by the undermining of political rivals.

 

 

7 minutes ago, jayboy said:

Here we go again.War on drugs diversion.Ignore.

 

As I was responding to your ' ..military coups (and outright violence if necessary) form the arsenal of the old order....' - it was yourself that raised this diversion.

 

2 hours ago, rixalex said:

Not really saying much though is it.

 

Take away Thaksin's resources and put him up against someone new, fresh and charismatic.. someone who actually gives a flying fig about the poor, and who doesn't just use them for personal gain... someone who has an actual vision of betterment for the country as a whole, and who can inspire others... the day that person comes along, is the day all the old political dinosaurs get what's coming to them.

Unfortunately there is exactly zero people here like that and likely to run for power.

People like that are few and far the world over and are generally much to nice people to ever get anywhere in the dirty corrupt world of politics..

So its a furfy to say that..

And as bad as taksin was, he stood up to the old gaurd and represented the people more than anyone before.. he didnt gain that sort of popularity by giving people 500bht as so many here want you to beleive..

1 hour ago, merlin2002 said:

Copies of the arrest warrant and the indictment had been posted at Thaksin’s house in the Charoen Sanitwong area of Bangkok, notifying him of the start of the trial yesterday.

 

How does Thaksin still have a house in Bangkok? I thought all his assets were seized?

 

 

Hey this is thailand they think he might return and leave it like willie cayotee leaves things for the road runner.

An off topic post has been removed.

15 hours ago, jayboy said:

In that case the onus is on you to define more precisely what you mean by the undermining of political rivals.

 

If you think that the undermining of political rivals that occurs here amounts only to, "inspiring one's supporters and presenting a set of policies to the electorate which are more popular/relevant than those of your opponents", and you are incapable of recalling the myriad of other "less savory" examples of acts of undermining of political opponents that have been well documented throughout the years to anyone paying even the most cursory of interests, then i'd say the onus is on you to either do some basic research on the matter, or stop feigning ignorance. You choose.

52 minutes ago, rixalex said:

If you think that the undermining of political rivals that occurs here amounts only to, "inspiring one's supporters and presenting a set of policies to the electorate which are more popular/relevant than those of your opponents", and you are incapable of recalling the myriad of other "less savory" examples of acts of undermining of political opponents that have been well documented throughout the years to anyone paying even the most cursory of interests, then i'd say the onus is on you to either do some basic research on the matter, or stop feigning ignorance. You choose.

So you are unable or unwilling to spell out what you mean.Don't try and wriggle out of your obligation by telling me to do more "research".I have been intensively studying Thai politics and involved in business for more than 30 years.

 

I'll ask you once again.How does a politician (let's take Thaksin as an example) undermine his political opponents other than being more effective and more popular with the electorate?

 

Helpful hint: If you come back with "vote Buying", buying up political parties, co-opting regional bosses, purveying "populism" etc you lose the argument.These canards have all been demolished in academic and other research - references supplied if necessary.

 

 

7 minutes ago, jayboy said:

So you are unable or unwilling to spell out what you mean.Don't try and wriggle out of your obligation by telling me to do more "research".I have been intensively studying Thai politics and involved in business for more than 30 years.

 

I'll ask you once again.How does a politician (let's take Thaksin as an example) undermine his political opponents other than being more effective and more popular with the electorate?

 

Helpful hint: If you come back with "vote Buying", buying up political parties, co-opting regional bosses, purveying "populism" etc you lose the argument.These canards have all been demolished in academic and other research - references supplied if necessary.

 

 

Unwilling.

 

Not only is it taking the topic off at a tangent and therefore likely to be deleted, but the reasons for you taking us on this merry tour down memory lane is not out of a genuine and sincere interest, rather part of a game in which you feign ignorance of certain things.... things like million baht defamation suits.

 

Helpful hint 1: No, i don't ascribe underhand tactics being used to undermine political opponents, such as defamation suits, exclusively to one politician. 

 

Helpful hint 2: Rather than getting carried away with what certain carefully chosen academics tell you, try thinking for yourself and remember that at the end of the day, this isn't a scientific field. Nobody, no matter how many post-nominal letters they have after their name, can categorically declare that vote buying either does or doesn't work. It's simply not possible to draw such a binary conclusion.