Thai Xenophobia

[JimsKnight]

This is not unique to Thailand at all, when people here in the UK say 'Thai Bride' they say it in a way suggesting/joking that you picked her up at a bar as a bar girl, so for Thai people to sometimes question the same thing isn't Xenophobic, its just stereotyping and everyone is guilty of this.

Maybe my English language abilities are not sufficient, but what are the major differences between judging according to negatively stereotying, and xenophic tendencies?

And yes, many westerners behave in a very xenophic (racist) manner in their home countries, and when coming here as well, but that does neither excuse nor justify similar behavior here.

can you provide me with some some real examples of xenophobia in thailand that is not present in any country on this earth.?

Haven't been to every country but, I do not recall seeing dual pricing for national attractions anywhere but here.

Will I agree that Thailand is at the very least indirectly resentful of falang who have money and live here long term.

You can dress up how they aren't any way which way, but when a group of thais take offense to foreigners holding thai drivers licenses I see no other way as how to put it.

But usually the thais are very subtle and just get on with whatever they are doing. Also the area of Thailand you are in can be a factor on how 'falang friendly' the locals are.

Overall though the Thailand is as another poster stated passively xenophobic. There are those that argue this is a good thing, (usually the thais! ).

Historically many Asian Countries have this trait. Given that most falang are caucasion and the thais are not, tribal / racial bloodlines mixing is still (for many families in Thailand and Asia) a serious taboo to cross.

Oh and some S. American countries have dual pricing also.

Edited January 23, 2007 by JimsKnight

[tuky]

There are areas that require "other nationals" to supervise activites due to cultural idiosynchrosies.

This can be taken as cultural heirarchy, xenophobia (from the nations), racism etc etc. But in fact there does come a time when a different perspective is needed by the local population, whether they know it or not.

With regards to safety, are you being "high and mighty" by insisting on an earthed electrical system for your house? or are you being culturally insensative?

If you were to criticise the local practise would you be anti thai? (thai bashing).

Would you feel threatened by a Muslim in Australia suggesting (in a very poor, vulgar, hateful way) that Australian woman are asking to be raped because they dress to suit the climate? Or perhaps as stated above "other nationals" should supervise activities due to cultural idiosynchrosies. It is a no win situation.

I think this whole thread has been blown out of proportion, and those that are getting their backs up are wasting their time. This is a topic that will never be answered because there is no answer.

All we can do is live with what we are given, try to make the most....learn from what we find in life. If a nation, a culture, a religion cannot do this then should it bother you? No, just live your life.

And leave it from TV, as we are not here to provoke we are here to discuss.

On that note there are a few members posting in this thread that are a hairs bredth away from...well you guys know who you are and what awaits.

I propose we close it.

yes, thats a top idea tucky,

and dont you think ive been a very respecful punter in this discussion?

i havn't spat the dummy or flared any one.

cricky's mate,

im getting better arn't i ?

give it the flick mate.

cheers.

Atleast spell my name right

[Gary A]

Call it anything you like or analyze it all you want. The simple fact is that if you have more money than your neighbors they will simply be jealous. Some board members are quite well off and some of the other farang board members are jealous of them. Many times things are discussed and big words are used to describe basic human emotions. It's NOT complicated. My wife is Thai and since she is better off than most, people are jealous of her.

[terry57]

There are areas that require "other nationals" to supervise activites due to cultural idiosynchrosies.

This can be taken as cultural heirarchy, xenophobia (from the nations), racism etc etc. But in fact there does come a time when a different perspective is needed by the local population, whether they know it or not.

With regards to safety, are you being "high and mighty" by insisting on an earthed electrical system for your house? or are you being culturally insensative?

If you were to criticise the local practise would you be anti thai? (thai bashing).

Would you feel threatened by a Muslim in Australia suggesting (in a very poor, vulgar, hateful way) that Australian woman are asking to be raped because they dress to suit the climate? Or perhaps as stated above "other nationals" should supervise activities due to cultural idiosynchrosies. It is a no win situation.

I think this whole thread has been blown out of proportion, and those that are getting their backs up are wasting their time. This is a topic that will never be answered because there is no answer.

All we can do is live with what we are given, try to make the most....learn from what we find in life. If a nation, a culture, a religion cannot do this then should it bother you? No, just live your life.

And leave it from TV, as we are not here to provoke we are here to discuss.

On that note there are a few members posting in this thread that are a hairs bredth away from...well you guys know who you are and what awaits.

I propose we close it.

yes, thats a top idea tucky,

and dont you think ive been a very respecful punter in this discussion?

i havn't spat the dummy or flared any one.

cricky's mate,

im getting better arn't i ?

give it the flick mate.

cheers.

Atleast spell my name right

yes ok mate,

its " TUKY " then.

your an aussie arn't you. " yes you are "

you know we are a bit disjunctive us lot and theres only 9.5% australian's on this forum so we must stick together.

anyway close this thread as its done to death mate.

and by the way,

i recon i won the debate as i hung in there the longest. and also dished up some very valid points.

cheers to all the punters that had a crack but i won this one.

[chuchok]

a few points

- you have the right to become a citizen if you meet the criteria (and few can be bothered to do so) - similar to you have the right to go visit USA if you meet the criteria from Thialand (and few do) NOT xenophobia

- parents probably think their kids cannot understand/mental block - xenophobia?! I wonder

- dual pricing: economic reasons exist for this and Thailand is not the only place that has this sort of policy (USA, NZ both have some elements of double pricing/infinite pricing, but nothing like here) but it certainly would seem to be evidence of stereotyping that foreigners (note, foreigners NOT farang) have money and Thai people don't - I agree with this one, shouldn't be there

- hiring Thai nationals is a whole lot easier; I can assure you that in an english ad if you don't write this, then you get tons of english teachers and similar applying; it is perfectly legal and acceptable to dictate this as a requirement and in USA it would be something like 'must have a green card' same same NOT xenophobia

- resentment of Singapore? Sorry, maybe as a kneejerk to Singawatra deal ,which just stinks (Singapore govt should have known better) and behaviour since, but other than that, nice place to visit and that's about it

- totally agree with attitudes towards Cambodians and Laotians and Burmese, although this is almost exactly the same as USA attitudes towards Mexico with a fair bit more tolerance; yet to see large numbers of people complaining about them coming here and stealing our jobs rhetoric; maybe a bit, but not in a threatened type way

- not giving foreigners rights to own land; restrictions on company ownership etc - this I think is the officlal xenophobia usually supported by the Thai people who have the ability to compete, and choose to tilt the playing field for their own benefit (e.g. all the anti hyper market stuff is mostly the Thai retailers assocation, who are....pretty much CP and 7:11 type firms, i.e. the people running the small mom pop stores out of business). Bad for Thailand, and xenophobic. About on par with America having a hissy fit when some Middle eastern firm bought that port last year, or Americans talking about outsourcing taking their jobs.

- cultural dept worrying about influx of western morals ruining Thailand - this is xenophobia

- treatment of Indians and dark skinned people here is not good at all; those people have cause to complain; IMHO white people for the most part, get it good here, same as most other places

Some of the quaint ideas that particularly the rural people have about foreigners can be very stereotyped; most of the xenophobia to me happens at an officialdom level and policy level; I am sorry but I just don't see any real difference between Thailand and 'white countries' in xenophobia and get it FAR better here; but then again...in a white country that a person grew up, are they really giong to be objective in seeing or identifying xenophobia?

Most points I agree with but...

As for the port problem in the USA,that could be seem as slightly understandable (And ignorant too) after 9/11.Did you know that the Pannama Canal is run by a Chinese company...as well as many other American ports.

It's also very hard to compare the USA and Green cards to here.You marry a yank, and under most circumstances you are given the ability to work, buy land etc.Here you are not.

most of the xenophobia to me happens at an officialdom level and policy level; I am sorry but I just don't see any real difference between Thailand and 'white countries' in xenophobia and get it FAR better here; but then again...in a white country that a person grew up, are they really giong to be objective in seeing or identifying xenophobia?

You don't have to be einstein to spot xenophobia,whether you are white,brown or a slight shade of blue.

There is a big difference between the 'white' countries and Thailand.They legislate!Many 'white' countries also go out of there way to educate children the evils of racism and xenophobia.That doesn't happen here(Or in many Asian countries) as far as I can see.

Edited January 23, 2007 by chuchok

[ourmanflint]

What an interesting thread!

Is Thailand Xenophobic?? There can only be one answer... 100% yes... anybody not seeing that is really missing something. I have visited here many times over the past 15 years and have tried to understand what makes Thais tick, I'm not content with hanging out in bars or on the beach, I actually want to know about the society I once thought I wanted to live in permanently. There are some huge clues for everyone to see, you don't have to read or speak Thai, just look at the jobs section of any of the English language papers. A very large proportion of job offers have the words "Thai People only" or "Thai Nationals only".

Would that be considered xenophibic or racist in your home country? Would it even be legal?

Now.. are Thai people xenophobic? In general I would say no.. on a personal level they have no need to be. I think this is what El Tel and those that cannot see Thai xenophobia are seeing on a day to day basis. Good Thai people are just that, not racist not xenophobic, just happy for you to be spending your money with them.

So do ordinary Thai people show any xenophobic tendencies at all, no. Why would they? Why risk being seen to be xenophobic when your government is xenophobic enough for everyone? That seems to be the best face saving solution of all.

i think your drawing a very long bow there flint.

as far as business wanting thai employees only, i cant see the problem, as they must employ thai nationals first.

farang must be second choise only.

be a top idea if australia tried that one.

thais must be first pick as it is there country after all and they also need a stable pay packet.

this has absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia and a very poor example.

you have to better than that mate.

The point which you so cooly missed is that it is OK for whatever reason to discriminate on the basis of nationality.... that is xenophobia. And Whilst I agree there are sensible reasons for wanting Thai nationals, it would not be tolerated anywhere else I know of.

[simon43]

I've only lived here for 5 years, but let me give some info about my experiences:

I have NEVER encountered any xenophobic behaviour from any Thai person that I have had contact with.

I have NEVER had any Thai person speak to me in a manner that might be considered rude

I have only had friendliness or politeness.

When I first came here, I couldn't understand Thai and so maybe these were crocodile smiles! Now I can understand Thai and I never hear any bad words about 'farang'

For sure, Thais think Thailand is the centre of the world. I keep a globe on my desk and like to ask Thai friends to point out Thailand on this globe, (or any other country for that matter). I have not yet met a single Thai person who can show me Thailand on this globe!!

Many (not all) Thais may be completely ignorant of anything outside of Thailand. They may be xenophobic or aggressive or rude to some 'farang'. Maybe these farang who encounter these problems are doing something different from me....

Simon

[toptuan]

IMHO the anti-farang feeling is very geographic-specific.

I find a very jaded and "sick-of'-farang/tourists" attitude in areas like Phuket, Koh Phangan, etc. Not unlike many tourist destinations in other countries--especially developing countries.

Slightly less worse is Bangkok. There, I've also been the target of tainted verbal references similar to the "farang animal" reference made earlier in this thread. Granted, usually from "low-life" types.

The very opposite of anti-farang feeling is found in NE Thailand, or Isaan. There, people act proud to be associated with or to know a foreigner. It's a very sweet attitude which makes it a joy to live and work there.

I know these are very broad brush strokes, but I offer these from simply personal observation of one who has lived and worked here for four years, and having traveled to most regions of this country.

Edited January 23, 2007 by toptuan

[Acquiesce]

Why close the topic, give other people a chance to post, i always thought this was a place for discusion after all.

The thread has not turned in to a flame war and some good points have been made.

Please don't tell us we are limited to threads about what beer gives you the worst hangover and if you are listening to music, what are you listening to.

[Acquiesce]

I have only had friendliness or politeness.

Realy? In another thread you said, quote "But it would have been rather nice of the parents to 'wai' me when they visited my wife. They waied her very respectfully but ignored me" end quote.

[simon43]

Acquiesce - You're 'nick-picking'. I'm hardly going to lose sleep over the fact that someone didn't wai me

[Neeranam]

The first dozen times I came here I didn't notice it either, too busy having too much fun, but when I actually moved here and lived a "normal" life it was very obvious.

I haven't read all the thread, but this sums it up for me.

Anyone who says that Thais are not rascist or xenophobic probably hasn't lived here long or has their eyes closed or can't speak Thai.

has anyone mentioned the pronoun 'mun' that Thais use when talking to farang or about farang?

[Mid]

has anyone mentioned the pronoun 'mun' that Thais use when talking to farang or about farang?

??

[Boo]

I just asked hubby about "mun" & he says that between family or close friends it is a common (issan??) way of refering to a third person. The example he gave was if his mother asked his brother where (my) hubby was she would say "mun pbai nai" instead of using his name.!!!

To him, amongst family or people close to you it is perfectly acceptable but to a stranger, thai or farang it was not.

[terry57]

Acquiesce - You're 'nick-picking'. I'm hardly going to lose sleep over the fact that someone didn't wai me

come on boys,

jes--us,

if you going to carry on the thread how about stepping it up a bit and throwing in some decent debate.

cricky's mate,

i step out and the quality just plummet's.

no wonder tuky is going to pull the plug.

lift your bloody game will you.

[Neeranam]

I just asked hubby about "mun" & he says that between family or close friends it is a common (issan??) way of refering to a third person. The example he gave was if his mother asked his brother where (my) hubby was she would say "mun pbai nai" instead of using his name.!!!

To him, amongst family or people close to you it is perfectly acceptable but to a stranger, thai or farang it was not.

That's correct in Isarn. Once I was responsible for getting a foreign professor to come to give a talk in Khon Kaen Univerity - when he got here I overheard the admin. discusssing his accomodation and guess what they used for 'he'? Mun. When they saw I understood you should have seen their faces.

When Thais speak to black people they use 'mun' to their faces. With farang they use it all the time amongst themselves.

If you ever hear your Thai gf say 'mun' when talking about you it's time to leave.

[Acquiesce]

has anyone mentioned the pronoun 'mun' that Thais use when talking to farang or about farang?

??

555555555 it is spelled the same มันฝรั่ง

[Neeranam]

Not to be confused with

มันส์ man enjoy ;

หมั่น màn keep on ; persistent

หมัน măn sterile ; infecund ; unfruitful

หมั้น mân be engaged ; be betrothed ; give one's hand to ; contract a marriage with

[Mobi]

The first dozen times I came here I didn't notice it either, too busy having too much fun, but when I actually moved here and lived a "normal" life it was very obvious.

I haven't read all the thread, but this sums it up for me.

Anyone who says that Thais are not rascist or xenophobic probably hasn't lived here long or has their eyes closed or can't speak Thai.

has anyone mentioned the pronoun 'mun' that Thais use when talking to farang or about farang?

I've read most of it - but not all.

Guesthouse and few others are spot on.

I first came to Thailand in 1974, and was living and working here until 1983 when I left, because, amongst other reasons, I started to understand the language and the Thais better ( I was the only farang in a Thai company) and I realised that farangs weren't really welcome - just tolerated for what they could contribute, particulkarly when dealing with overseas customers/international business due to their woeful knowledge of English.

This mild resentment has escalated over the past 30 years, for all the reasons outlined so eloquently in Guesthouse's post, and particularly since the late nineties, it has developed into full blown resentment and hatred of foreigners, egged on by Herr Thaksin and his cohorts - and latterly the bumbling Dad's Army.

My wife is a lovely lady (you'll have to take my word for this ), but if she had her way, she wouldn't let a farang own one square foot of her beloved Thailand, and the sooner Tesco and their fellow foreign devils get on their bikes and give Thai businesses back to the Thais, the happier she will be. She reads the Thai newspapers avidly every day, and watches all the news broadcasts. I have no doubt that she is a fairly typical 'brainwashed' member of the Thai working classes.

[ColPyat]

I am sorry but I just don't see any real difference between Thailand and 'white countries' in xenophobia and get it FAR better here; but then again...in a white country that a person grew up, are they really giong to be objective in seeing or identifying xenophobia?

As my wife is Thai i would be the last one who would not admit that my 'white' home country is not in many hidden and not so hidden areas xenophobic, and is increasingly more so, and it aggrevates me a lot.

But that i think is besides the point here, unless you believe that relativising Thai xenophobia with western xenophobia makes it any better.

Thailand is xenophobic, if more or less than the west is a moot point. And this is increasingly felt by me, a long term resident with many Thai friends and Thai family, who mostly converses in Thai with them.

The main difference i see in the west is that there is an open public debate about this, while here in Thailand only a few of the intellectuals (and some Thai women married to us foreigners) are admitting this. In general, whenever this subject is mentioned you will get blank stares of complete bewilderment, or, as in this thread, people defending their point that the "LOS" could not possibly be xenophobic as it is as close to paradise as it can get.

We can explain this in endless ways, from the conflict between T'ai ethnicy vs. Thai nationalism, up to the development status, or politics, and whatever not.

Fact though remains that Thailand is xenophobic.

[Acquiesce]

My wife is a lovely lady (you'll have to take my word for this ), but if she had her way, she wouldn't let a farang own one square foot of her beloved Thailand, and the sooner Tesco and their fellow foreign devils get on their bikes and give Thai businesses back to the Thais, the happier she will be. She reads the Thai newspapers avidly every day, and watches all the news broadcasts. I have no doubt that she is a fairly typical 'brainwashed' member of the Thai working classes.

Yes she sounds lovely , no i would not say she was typical

[Mobi]

Yes she sounds lovely , no i would not say she was typical

Well she certainly reflects the views of many in her village and the surrounding villages, when I have had the occasion to meet and chat and drink with them over the past year or so.

In a way you are right. She's not very typical, because she likes to tell me what she really thinks - unlike most Thai women.

It's not always easy for farangs to know exactly what Thais think, and if there's something they they think you wouldn't want to hear - like "farangs shouldn't own land", then it is unlikely they will tell you, unless they feel you are 'one of them', so to speak. These sentiments have become evident when discussing politics in general, and sometimes they just forget that there is a farang amongst them and then it all comes out.

[eljeque]

Check out the book Thai Identity and Its Defenders

This gives the government and cultural side to this discussion.

[Gaudente]

its silly to even think they would kick us out as tourism is a ingrained part of thailand contributing to many thai lives and has been for many years.

really the new VISA regulations are aimed to kick farangs out. And indeed that is silly as it will SERIOUSLY hurt tourism . Yet they do it, and this is the greatest demonstration of their sky-high xenophobia.

[Jingthing]

its silly to even think they would kick us out as tourism is a ingrained part of thailand contributing to many thai lives and has been for many years.

really the new VISA regulations are aimed to kick farangs out. And indeed that is silly as it will SERIOUSLY hurt tourism . Yet they do it, and this is the greatest demonstration of their sky-high xenophobia.

Yes, I was talking about long term stayers being kicked out, not tourists. Of course, tourists who stay 2 weeks and SPEND the equivalent of the average Thais annual salary will always be given a Sawadee Khrap!

[Little Black Duck]

Not too sure about Xenaphobic..but thinks I..there are a few Hydrophobics...

[Casanundra]

I have just read this whole thread from top to bottom and am mildly amused.

Being a resident here working with the educated upper classes on a daily basis (even some who are on the new consitution committee) I can confirm that there are some very protectionistic views about keeping Thailand away from the foreign devils being made on a daily basis in the higher circles of Thai society and most of them are being said with me in the meeting listening in as well... they have no shame. I also get to read some of the new government proposlas before they become public and some of them coming out in recent weeks have been handed back with suggestions that they may be a little too harsh towards foreigners in general and could be toned down abit. Some of these papers have also rightly or wrongly shifted the blame onto the foreign governments and to the farangs in general for what is happening in Thailand. I read a report on the new 50:50 business law before it was made public and was asked to read and comment about who should be responsible for the governance of the nominee shares in foreign based companies. The conlcusion of the paper was clear and it stated that the Thais should not be held responsible for the abuse of the nominee shares and it was/is the foreigners who abuse them that are quite wrong in doing so. Furthermore, the paper also reported that is was the responsibility of the foreign governements to control its citizens and to 'punish' us legally for such abuses of the Thai rules. This of course is clear bumpkin but it does go to reveal the thinking that is going on. What was surprising was that there was no mention to the fact that had the rules been clearer and less protectionistic in the first place, then the foreigners would not have had to abuse them in order to protect themsleves. Also what about all of the Thai lawyers who committed an illegal act by advising them to abuse the rules in the first place. Is this a xenophobic view or just a protectionistic one of a no blame culture?

Out on the streets I too have also noticed a distinct shift in attitudes towards foreigners and these past few months in particular has after observing the average Thai out and about and listening to some very nasty comments being made towards foreigners (not me, but generally) it has clearly shown them to becoming less and less tolerant towards foreigners here. As a tourist you will not see this and it's generally those of us who live here who get to see the insights of it all on a daily basis. Let's put it this way, I have learnt to do the Thai thing and just switch my ears off and take the view of ignoring it and as such it can't be there... but that doesn't mean it isn't of course, just that ignorance is bliss and my life is a happier place when I am pretending to not listen or to engaging my brain to it all.

There is no doubt however that there is an ever increasing feeling of unease about the shift in attitudes that we are seeing and most of us who are living here are simply taking the view of either battoning down the hatches to weather the storm that we believe may be coming with others putting exit plans in place just in case we have to depart rather quickly.

Sometimes I feel that life here is like the film 'invasion of the body snatchers' and most of us are just trying to fit in lest someone points a finger at us while making the noise of a wild pig in our general direction as someone who is not part of the larger community. Squeeeeal!

Edited January 23, 2007 by Casanundra

[Heng]

I am not aware of there ever having been such a serious problem of xenophobia in Thailand in recent history, but I am no expert. I do not wear rose-tinted glasses either, so I am of course aware that some Thais quite legitimately resent foreigners whom they equate with having greater wealth that enables them to enjoy a more prosperous lifestyle.

My question is: is xenophobia evident already, or is it likely?

I'd say it's less about resentment and more along the lines of how the Nazis felt about the Jews and how many Afrikaans speakers felt/feel about black South Africans. The local version is more polite, surely.

[wintermute]

I'd say it's less about resentment and more along the lines of how the Nazis felt about the Jews and how many Afrikaans speakers felt/feel about black South Africans. The local version is more polite, surely.

Are you being facetious or are you really equating thai society with Nazi Germany? It's not even close to being that bad. Even in some crazy alternate universe if Thailand "got out of hand" so to speak it has nothing to back it up with. Any country worth its salt could give Thailand a thump on the nose with a big military rolled up newspaper. Last time I heard Thailand was still trying to trade chickens for outdated U.S. F-16s and its 1950's era tanks displayed during the coup are a laugh for any modern army.

[Heng]

I'd say it's less about resentment and more along the lines of how the Nazis felt about the Jews and how many Afrikaans speakers felt/feel about black South Africans. The local version is more polite, surely.

Are you being facetious or are you really equating thai society with Nazi Germany? It's not even close to being that bad. Even in some crazy alternate universe if Thailand "got out of hand" so to speak it has nothing to back it up with. Any country worth its salt could give Thailand a thump on the nose with a big military rolled up newspaper. Last time I heard Thailand was still trying to trade chickens for outdated U.S. F-16s and its 1950's era tanks displayed during the coup are a laugh for any modern army.

I'm saying it's about simple preference. It has less to do with the object of one's dislike... and more to do with oneself. Many Nazis preferred a Germany without Jews, many South Africans prefered a South Africa without blacks, many Thais prefer to have foreigners jumping through hoops. Losing a World War, getting rid of apartheid, or lower tourist revenues does very little to change people's preferences.