Thai Xenophobia

[sbk]

If you must continue on in a personal vein then please continue your argument via PM and do not hijack this thread with your personal issues.

[ThaiGoon]

a few points

- you have the right to become a citizen if you meet the criteria (and few can be bothered to do so) - similar to you have the right to go visit USA if you meet the criteria from Thialand (and few do) NOT xenophobia

- parents probably think their kids cannot understand/mental block - xenophobia?! I wonder

- dual pricing: economic reasons exist for this and Thailand is not the only place that has this sort of policy (USA, NZ both have some elements of double pricing/infinite pricing, but nothing like here) but it certainly would seem to be evidence of stereotyping that foreigners (note, foreigners NOT farang) have money and Thai people don't - I agree with this one, shouldn't be double pricing; they should just price in at market rates, and too bad if half of rural Thailand can then not afford it; they should be working not holidaying

- hiring Thai nationals is a whole lot easier; I can assure you that in an english ad if you don't write this, then you get tons of english teachers and similar applying who will need work permits; it is perfectly legal and acceptable to dictate this as a requirement and in USA it would be something like 'must have a green card' same same NOT xenophobia

- resentment of Singapore? Sorry, maybe as a kneejerk to Singawatra deal ,which just stinks (Singapore govt should have known better) and behaviour since, but other than that, nice place to visit and that's about it

- totally agree with attitudes towards Cambodians and Laotians and Burmese, although this is almost exactly the same as USA attitudes towards Mexico with a fair bit more tolerance; yet to see large numbers of people complaining about them coming here and stealing our jobs rhetoric; maybe a bit, but not in a threatened type way

- not giving foreigners rights to own land; restrictions on company ownership etc - this I think is the officlal xenophobia usually supported by the Thai people who have the ability to compete, and choose to tilt the playing field for their own benefit (e.g. all the anti hyper market stuff is mostly the Thai retailers assocation, who are....pretty much CP and 7:11 type firms, i.e. the people running the small mom pop stores out of business). Bad for Thailand, and xenophobic. About on par with America having a hissy fit when some Middle eastern firm bought that port last year, or Americans talking about outsourcing taking their jobs.

- cultural dept worrying about influx of western morals ruining Thailand - this is xenophobia

- treatment of Indians and dark skinned people here is not good at all; those people have cause to complain; IMHO white people for the most part, get it good here, same as most other places

- never being treated as a 'citizen'; the white people I know who carry Thai passports often get a little bit of odd treatment at first and then welcomed when they show they meet the standards of being a Thai citizen that are often expected - Thai manners, Thai language, that sort of thing. If you cannot speak the language and don't show Thai manners, you will never be treated as a Thai. Even if you do, perhaps you will not. Ditto that for NZ, where my Thai side of the family are also regularly asked somewhat impolitely to consider returning to their previous country, despite speaking perfect Kiwi accent english, contributing tax in the top 5% of the country and various other acheivements far beyond the reach of most New Zealanders. Apparently, to some there, you ahve to be white or Maori to be a real NZer - xenophobia there when it happens, an xenophobia here when it happens. If you have a Thai passport (not PR, not a WP, CITIZENSHIP) then let us know how you get treated

Some of the quaint ideas that particularly the rural people have about foreigners can be very stereotyped; most of the xenophobia to me happens at an officialdom level and policy level; I am sorry but I just don't see any real difference between Thailand and 'white countries' in xenophobia and get it FAR better here; but then again...in a white country that a person grew up, are they really giong to be objective in seeing or identifying xenophobia?

Nice summary Steve. I pretty much agree with everything you said. Xenophobia exists everywhere in the world, and Thailand is no exception. And like SBK said several pages ago...it's just human nature.

[Jet Gorgon]

I've just got up

Can I bring you a cuppa tea, Mr Mobi?

Yes please, made with Loose Yorkshire tea leaves, a seperate milk jug, a cup not a mug, and make sure you warm the pot first.

And how about a nice slice of hot buttered toast?

Thanks

Now, back to xenophobia.......

You got it, Mobi. So, do you have a human master that needs something, too? I am kind of xenophobic when it comes to humans...

[GuestHouse]

You are going to crash this thread, GH. Please attack the view of the poster, not the person.

Point taken. I'll try and do better.

Here we go.

We have people coming on here spouting racism and xenophobia - Racism and xenophobia together base, nasty, cowardly emotions (I'll not grace them with calling them 'intellectual thought', they are at the very best small minded, I would argue tiny minded).

So people who are themselves racist and xenophobic then tell the rest of us that our view of racism and xenophobia in Thailand is nonsense, because these two filthy traits are not as prominent in Thailand as some other place.

Well what does that mean?

Firstly against what standards are they making this judgment (their own racist and xenophobic standards? - Hardly the best base line).

Moreover, what does it matter if racism and xenophobia exist in some place thousands of miles away from Thailand - We are not discussing other places, we are discussing life in Thailand.

Then we have the ludicrous situation of people who are racist and xenophobic wanting to move to Thailand to get away from foreigners in their own country - Surely a joke.

And let me make this observation.

Much has been said lately about the Thai government changing laws, the rules, instigating crackdowns on foreigners living peacefully in Thailand. I take it that the racists and xenophobes here support these moves, they are after all the exact same moves they would have their own government make.

Let me record my view on this. Show me a racist or a xenophobe and I'll show you a nasty, small-minded coward.

That these same people come on here telling others 'like it or go home' is not a surprise, it is right out of the limited arguments of their tiny minds.

As for being told to go home, by someone who hasn’t actually left home… LOL

[Heng]

but i must tell you all, i have never encountered it, and i say, its got a lot to do with how you approach the thai people.

How well said Terry!

Look at the way farangs on TV insult and abuse Thailand and thai people/government. The way farangs behave could be the cause IF something like xenophobia exists. Interesting would be to find out where it supposedly exist, Pattaya? BKK?

It certainly does not exist in my area

Joe

suggest you look at this post

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1098313

and Hengs post above.He is Thai and normally hits the nail on the head.

I read his post before. He has NO clue about german people during nazi time, he has NO clue about south africa where the original people are the blacks ( so how can you want a south africa without blacks? bullocks). He is right about preferences. But how preferences develop? Bu negative experiences. So if some thai people have negative experiences with farangs they would tend to become xenophobic. Normal in my opinion. If farangs don't behave/misbehave, why would thai people love them? If foreign people irritate me I also think: go home!

Joe

I'll admit my generalization was a broad one. I'll leave it at the majority of people of each country aligning their feelings and beliefs for whatever reason enough NOT to go against the status quo. You can call that whatever you like. It's the same here.

As for negative experiences, it's certainly not always the case. People just as often have preconceived notions and beliefs and will continue to believe so until proven otherwise (and even then, they still might not change). One doesn't have to have personal contact with people to think less of them.

[terry57]

ok then,

we have established that thailand is the same as every other country on this planet when it comes to xenophobia.

is this a fair conclusion for me to draw.?

of course it is, so what are some of you guys going on about ?

its a pointless subject, always has been and always will be.

it is raised by people who like to have a little winge about this country and i suggest that a game of golf might do you some good.

keep it real people and thank you very much. :D

without prejudice of course.

[wilko]

How can Thailand ever be rated more Xenophobic than Australia? or the USA? or Expats in Thailnd?

[sbk]

How can Thailand ever be rated more Xenophobic than Australia? or the USA? or Expats in Thailnd?

I believe the original post was not comparing xenophobia in Thailand to those of other countries but rather, questioning its existence in the first place and whether or not it has worsened in recent years.

I agree with GH here:

Moreover, what does it matter if racism and xenophobia exist in some place thousands of miles away from Thailand - We are not discussing other places, we are discussing life in Thailand.

[Heng]

Why? You ever realised that thai women are "forced" to have as much a light skin as possible? I've never seen so many "lighting" products as in Thailand, it's dominated by thai men who prefer a light skin. It has nothing to do with xenophobia, it's to do with dark skin. My wife, who has dark skin for a thai, many times asked me if I don't mind. I told her that people in Europe pay a lot of money to get a darker skin!

In the end, I think you'll find that it doesn't make them feel any better. They aren't trying to become European. They are trying to become middle and upper class Thais who generally work (or don't work) indoors and have lighter skin. In the same way, gals in the west aren't looking to become ethnically Hispanic or African either, just because they want to be darker. One group doesn't want to be "from the fields." Another group wants to be "from the beach."

[terry57]

How can Thailand ever be rated more Xenophobic than Australia? or the USA? or Expats in Thailnd?

I believe the original post was not comparing xenophobia in Thailand to those of other countries but rather, questioning its existence in the first place and whether or not it has worsened in recent years.

I agree with GH here:

Moreover, what does it matter if racism and xenophobia exist in some place thousands of miles away from Thailand - We are not discussing other places, we are discussing life in Thailand.

so you've established that thailand is xenophobic but no more than any other country.

so whats the big deal and is everybody happy now. ?

it certainly does'nt effect me, as i will continue to view los in a positive light and not concentrate on the negative aspects.

good attitude = good life.

bad attitude = bad life.

make your own choises.

[sbk]

thais being xenophobic.?

biggest load of bollicks ive ever heard and it never ceases to amaze me that people keep throwing this one up.

every where i go in los i dont encounter it. i mean where are you guys hanging out to form such an opinion.?

i suppose if you got a bad attitude you might think the thais have got it in for you but the normal well ajusted punter will usually have a fine time in los.

XENOPHOBIA = noun = " intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries."

who in there right mind would say that this is how the average thai thinks?

get a grip people.

so you've established that thailand is xenophobic but no more than any other country.

so whats the big deal and is everybody happy now. ?

it certainly does'nt effect me, as i will continue to view los in a positive light and not concentrate on the negative aspects.

good attitude = good life.

bad attitude = bad life.

make your own choises.

Quite a seachange in your attitude there Terry

[LinkPopularity]

I do think we should make a difference between racism and xenophobia, to my experience there's definitely more racism here then many other countries, but that doesn't mean they're xenophobic, that includes fear for foreigners, they don't have that, actually I think most racism in Thailand is not so much about them thinking low of foreigners, but more because they're so self-centered and actually think they invented hot water, while many of them are too stupid to help the rain fall down ;-)

so, on topic ... ;-)

[ThaiGoon]

How can Thailand ever be rated more Xenophobic than Australia? or the USA? or Expats in Thailnd?

[terry57]

thais being xenophobic.?

biggest load of bollicks ive ever heard and it never ceases to amaze me that people keep throwing this one up.

every where i go in los i dont encounter it. i mean where are you guys hanging out to form such an opinion.?

i suppose if you got a bad attitude you might think the thais have got it in for you but the normal well ajusted punter will usually have a fine time in los.

XENOPHOBIA = noun = " intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries."

who in there right mind would say that this is how the average thai thinks?

get a grip people.

so you've established that thailand is xenophobic but no more than any other country.

so whats the big deal and is everybody happy now. ?

it certainly does'nt effect me, as i will continue to view los in a positive light and not concentrate on the negative aspects.

good attitude = good life.

bad attitude = bad life.

make your own choises.

Quite a seachange in your attitude there Terry

this is how it is SBK.

the true meaning of the word xenophobia as explained above , i still dont agree with concerning the average thais view to the farang.

its a much to severe assessment and again ill say its bollicks.

i will agree that in some certain circles there may be resentment to farang.

but to label the whole country xenophobic is a disgrace and not worthy of debate.

im only into it just to see how many punters think this way.

there's one in particular who was a sure starter.

check out the contributers to this thread and there wasn't that many, and mainly the same few punters.

it does not matter where one lives, as its all in the attitude and i'll continue to enjoy los and not be distracted by the nay sayers.

not so much a sea change but a practical compromise.

when i want a sea change i go down to koh tao.

no xenophobia there, i'll give you the big tip.

thank you very much.

[terry57]

How can Thailand ever be rated more Xenophobic than Australia? or the USA? or Expats in Thailnd?

i can see why your laughing mate as those countrys leave thailand in there wake.

[Ijustwannateach]

Jai Dee,

The question you posed a few pages back (are the Thais more xenophobic than other people)... made me think.

My previous post on this thread was more about their racism. Some members of my family and home community in the U.S.A. are quite racist, but it is diminishing with each generation and the older ones who are more racist have realised and admitted to me they have a problem- but it's difficult for them to change at their age. Since the issue has become a public discussion in most English-speaking countries, I think attitudes have on the whole become healthier than in most of Asia. However, at least in some parts of the U.S., I think people might be more xenophobic than in Thailand- at least, I can't think of a place in Thailand I couldn't go for an extended period and at least receive the superficial forms of welcome and probably feel some genuine warmth. In the U.S. there are still places where obvious foreigners (or locals with the wrong colour of skin) would receive very short shrift indeed. Then again, the U.S. is a big place, and maybe if I searched hard enough I would find similar pockets like that here in Thailand.

Japan is certainly both more xenophobic and more racist than Thailand.

But the OP is probably right that levels of xenophobia and racism are on the rise here.

"Steven"

[Jookster]

To quote 'the Greatest'

“If you’re white, you’re all right; if you’re black, stand back; if you’re brown, stick around.”

This pretty much sums up the ways that certainly a number of Thai people think. Its difficult and potentially dangerous to generalise, but it appears that to sum extent at least;

White people are seem as fine. In fact in speaking to a family friend 'White people' can actually be seen as 'better' than Thai people, by Thai people. Having said that I am sure that they can be seen as rich and stupid too.....

Black people are feared, they are seen as scary. Its incorrect and racist and itself to use the term 'African' and coloured is a term which related to the notion of normality being white and thus different in that a person is coloured. Although in South Africa it is a different meaning altogether...

Indian people, or rather generally Southern Asian are disliked. Seen as mean and unpleasant.

Thai-Chinese often stick together (as do other ethnic groups all over the world)

Laos people are seen as a sort of joke, and looked down upon.

Similarly Isaan people are seen as pretty lowly.

Skin colour dictates a feeling of class in that the darker skinned are seen as lower class and poorer. Similar to say in Britain in the not too distant past when the servants would develop tans from outdoor work and the elite upper class would use lead to whiten the skin!

This is what I have gathered........... But any criticisms welcomed.

[Jai Dee]

Jai Dee,

The question you posed a few pages back (are the Thais more xenophobic than other people)... made me think.

Maybe it was drawing the subject off-topic to a certain extent... but isn't it a comparative issue?

Xenophobic? Compared to what?

Although some of Terry's comments may generate argument... at least he is comparing what he has been exposed to/heard about in Australia with his experiences here in Thailand.

[ashacat]

If Thailand was xenophobic I don't think that you would be able detect it if your experience was limited to the usual "tourist bubble" experience, i.e. Hotels, bars, people within the tourism sector, "touristy areas" etc etc.

You are far more likely to witness xenophobia during "everyday tasks" such as opening a bank account, grocery shopping, buying/renting accomodation, the daily commute, "Soi life" etc. etc.

This side of the culture can only be experienced if you are living in a country full time.

Could this stark difference of personal experience be the stumbling block in this arguement?

Edited January 24, 2007 by ashacat

[davidjtayler]

To get an accurate picture to whether Thailand is more xenophobic now is obviously very diifficult apart from taking a census which asks all Thai people whether they are xenophobic and getting a true answer ... it is totally subjective and depends on the foreign person in question and how they perceive those around them ... it depends on their experiences amongst Thai people and how they perceive those experiences.

Outlook is all important here as a negatively minded person will obviously perceive things much more differently than a postively minded person and this is what Terry and SanukJoe have pointed out ... essentially the question is unanswerable as we all think and perceive things very differently.

My opinion on this matter ... Well, I would consider myself a very positive minded person and have lived here for 8 years (7 of those in Bangkok) and I can honestly say that I haven't experienced any xenophobia towards myself personally.

I would conclude in my experience that Thailand is therfore no more xenophobic than it was 8 years ago ... however, this is my experience only.

I'm not saying Thailand is not xenophobic as every country is to some degree, thats human nature, however, I don't feel it has become more xenophobic during my time here.

[steveromagnino]

Xenophobia, racism, call it what you will, it exists and it exists at a grass-roots level. Example: There I am a few weeks back taking a songtaew home and it comes close to my place so I press the bell to get him to stop however the bell doesn't work so the Thai dude sat close to the driver's end of the cab bangs on the window and says in Thai "This farang wants to get off". Now being as we were the only two passengers in the cab, what was the need to indicate my ethnic origin? Why wasn't it enough just to say "there's a guy here who wants to get off" Imagine I was back in the UK on the bus and a non-caucasian passenger was in the same situation and I bellow to the driver "This black/coloured/Indian/Pakistani/Asian guy wants to get off" Yeah I'd be looking at a whole heap of trouble. The fact is that many Thais do stereotype westerners and the very fact that a single term can be used to label all of us is indicative of a basic ignorance of our respective cultures.

1. Practicality: driver wonders why person banging isn't getting off; ah yes, the woman/young girl/farang/person with a handicap wants to get off, not you; better make sure I collect my fee from THAT person'

2. YOU say the ASIAN guy; then you wonder how can a sigle term be used to label white people????!!!!

You should be a writing sitcom material; the stuff you come out with is far funnier than anything on UBC (except for Family Guy, maybe you should write what Peter Griffin says).

[Jet Gorgon]

My opinion on this matter ... Well, I would consider myself a very positive minded person and have lived here for 8 years (7 of those in Bangkok) and I can honestly say that I haven't experienced any xenophobia towards myself personally.

I like positive attitude, and a good way to squash any negative incoming. Just smile and deflect.

[davidjtayler]

My opinion on this matter ... Well, I would consider myself a very positive minded person and have lived here for 8 years (7 of those in Bangkok) and I can honestly say that I haven't experienced any xenophobia towards myself personally.

I like positive attitude, and a good way to squash any negative incoming. Just smile and deflect.

Like that little beamer there eh Miss Jet ?

[Jet Gorgon]

My opinion on this matter ... Well, I would consider myself a very positive minded person and have lived here for 8 years (7 of those in Bangkok) and I can honestly say that I haven't experienced any xenophobia towards myself personally.

I like positive attitude, and a good way to squash any negative incoming. Just smile and deflect.

Like that little beamer there eh Miss Jet ?

You betcha, you smooth sweet talker.

[somtaamgaiyang]

thais being xenophobic.?

biggest load of bollicks ive ever heard and it never ceases to amaze me that people keep throwing this one up.

every where i go in los i dont encounter it. i mean where are you guys hanging out to form such an opinion.?

i suppose if you got a bad attitude you might think the thais have got it in for you but the normal well ajusted punter will usually have a fine time in los.

XENOPHOBIA = noun = " intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries."

who in there right mind would say that this is how the average thai thinks?

get a grip people.

I think the issue is not necessarily Xenophobia, but rather an inate feeling of superiority inherent in Thai culture. Logically when your neighbours are communist failed states and a moslem country, you don't fit in, so better to make yourselves feel superior.

I remember reading that the fact that Thais share dishes of food being equated to superiority of sharing and togetherness. Last time I looked where boiled rice is the staple diet, everyone pretty much eats that way, but as they say, if you say a lie often enough, it can become true.

Guess you aren't Indian or African then? Try asking someone from there.

ok then,

try being indian, african or black in your home country and see how you go.

at least they dont shoot them here.

thats a rediculous come back as that true in every country on this earth.

if your not white your behind the 8 ball.

so by your reconing every country on this earth is xenophobic?

whats makes los different ?

Nothing

Its human nature to distrust those different or strange to us. Personally, I think it goes back to the caveman days when a person couldn't trust someone not from their tribe.

Is it worse? Not really, but I think Thaksin with his Thais Rak Thais party and attitude didn't help matters.

There is nothing like a bit of Xenophobia to get the attention of the masses .We want our country back etc.The problem is that the current blokes have carried it on.

many years ago the wife told me that many Thais do not really like farang....mainly due to what SBK has said.

Xenophobia in my home country of NZ is alive and well,but this is starting to wain as the Asian people are intergrating more and more.I will say that most of the problems at home stem from the way many Asians drive.....

[Mobi]

It is a bit pointless, and do doubt pretty impossible to judge whether the UK, Australia or any other country is more or less xenophobic/ racist than Thailand. Indeed, as has been pointed out, that is not the main point of discussion.

Having once been married to a black (African ) lady in my early twenties, and living in England, I can certainly attest to racist attitudes there.

However there was then and even more so now, a very big difference between most western countries, and many Asian countries, including Thailand.

The difference is the attititude of the government, and the efforts made, both voluntrarily and by legislation to curb the excesses of racism. This is done to the extent that most UK residents, racist or otherwise, are in no doubt that racism is frowned on by authorities and by most 'right minded' people. This certainly helps to reduce racism, and overt discrimination - if for no other reason they might find themselves foul of the law, and suffer the approbation of their peers.

No such situation exists in Thailand, where not only do most of those in authority keep silent on the subject of racisism, but you have successive goverments actively encouraging the people to blame all their ills on the evil foreigners in their midst. Then you have respected figures from all walks of life - civil servants, teachers, business leaders etc etc, also encouraging xenophobic attitudes.

Like so many things here - corruption, poverty, destruction of the environment et al, nothing much will change until those in power have the will to make it change.

Edited January 24, 2007 by Mobi D'Ark

[Bananaman]

Xenophobia, racism, call it what you will, it exists and it exists at a grass-roots level. Example: There I am a few weeks back taking a songtaew home and it comes close to my place so I press the bell to get him to stop however the bell doesn't work so the Thai dude sat close to the driver's end of the cab bangs on the window and says in Thai "This farang wants to get off". Now being as we were the only two passengers in the cab, what was the need to indicate my ethnic origin? Why wasn't it enough just to say "there's a guy here who wants to get off" Imagine I was back in the UK on the bus and a non-caucasian passenger was in the same situation and I bellow to the driver "This black/coloured/Indian/Pakistani/Asian guy wants to get off" Yeah I'd be looking at a whole heap of trouble. The fact is that many Thais do stereotype westerners and the very fact that a single term can be used to label all of us is indicative of a basic ignorance of our respective cultures.

1. Practicality: driver wonders why person banging isn't getting off; ah yes, the woman/young girl/farang/person with a handicap wants to get off, not you; better make sure I collect my fee from THAT person'

2. YOU say the ASIAN guy; then you wonder how can a sigle term be used to label white people????!!!!

You should be a writing sitcom material; the stuff you come out with is far funnier than anything on UBC (except for Family Guy, maybe you should write what Peter Griffin says).

1. Practicality: driver wonders why person banging isn't getting off; ah yes, the woman/young girl/farang/person with a handicap wants to get off, not you; better make sure I collect my fee from THAT person'

Yeah in case they try to do a runner without paying, cos that happens all the time here.

2. YOU say the ASIAN guy; then you wonder how can a sigle term be used to label white people????!!!!

Wake up, when I said ASIAN, I was quoting a hypothetical character in a hypothetical situation.

Glad you like my comedy, Saturday Night Live eat ya heart out

[Heng]

It's also not just a Thai-falang issue. It has long been Thai vs. anyone not Thai (long before any falangs were on the scene).

[ourmanflint]

We all now live in a global economy like it or not, the free movement of people and trade is an essential part of this new world. This is a one way street that once you are on you cannot just decide to get off whenever you like or worse try to reverse up it as if turning back time itself.

The central assumptions of this new freedom of movement and business are that countries participating and benefitting from it shall have a level playing field . This means the free flow of not just finance and ideas, but of people, and people wherever they are have to work to survive and they have to have somehwere to call home.

Now if a country like Thailand wishes to continue to benefit from this global economy, then self protectionist measures such as those being taken by the government now and over the past year, can only be seen as xenophobic.

It is hard for some people to accept, but if you wish to keep your countries land, property and jobs to citizens of your own country and take measures in law to do this, then you have lost the right for any of your fellow countrymen to do the same elsewhere.

So we all stay in the country we were born in and go on holiday, no more choosing where you want to spend your life, the level playing field has gone. You cannot have it both ways.

So is Thailand as a state xenophobic... yes it is. And moreover it is in comparison far more proactively xenophobic than any country I have ever been to.

[Nikkijah]

It's also not just a Thai-falang issue. It has long been Thai vs. anyone not Thai (long before any falangs were on the scene).

So true, my partner is Vietnamese, she lived her first few years in Nong Khai and was hated because of her Vietnamese appearance, she later moved to BKK and blended in without people knowing/caring where she came from but whenever she visited Nong Khai again to see family or friends she was taunted in the village 'ee gaew' and 'ee yuan' - not particularly nice terms!

Just my 2 satangs.