Survivors of Vietnam's My Lai massacre remember 'darkness and silence'

[StraightTalk]

2 minutes ago, Carib said:

You cannot be serious to think this was an appropriate sentence

The first part of my post was sourced from Wikipedia on which I merely added an sarcastic or caustic remark. (Didn't mean to flummox you and other esteemed contributors/readers).

[Carib]

1 minute ago, SouthernDelight said:

The first part of my post was sourced from Wikipedia on which I merely added an sarcastic or caustic remark. (Didn't mean to flummox you and other esteemed contributors/readers).

You did that for a reason, I suggest you try reading a bit more about what happened there and start thinking before you write caustic remarks. In the second world war people were hanged by the americans for less than for what Calley did and ordered others to do. 

[Oziex1]

Seems, there are no war criminals on our side we are the good guys we have heroes not war criminals.

 

The criminals are the foreigners, the ones we are taught to hate and distrust.

[StraightTalk]

14 minutes ago, Carib said:

You did that for a reason, I suggest you try reading a bit more about what happened there and start thinking before you write caustic remarks.

I am well aware of this particular atrocity and other war crimes committed by USA including the secretly enlarged scopes of its actions in the Vietnam War with the bombings of nearby Cambodia and Laos, coastal raids on North Vietnam, and Marine Corps attacks. AFAIC, there's nothing to think about my personal remark pertaining to the sentence of the responsible perpetrator.

 

[ballpoint]

1 hour ago, MrMuddle said:

Interesting, the way a lot of people are posting photos of Helicopters, to try and muddle the issue. The topic is about the US atrocities committed at My Lai.

"To try and muddle the issue."  Rubbish.  The entire shameful story of the Vietnam war, from the Gulf of Tonkin incident to the evacuation of Saigon, is a mixture of the surreal, ridiculous and deeply tragic, and is entirely relevant to what happened in My Lai and the people who perpetrated the atrocity there.  I posted the pictures of the choppers being pushed overboard.  I also posted the documentary "Four hours in My Lai" in post 5, and the quote and link to the John Pilger article on My Lai in post 19.  If you think that is "muddling the issue" then I suggest you sit down and view the documentary.  I also suggest you read the book written in association with it, which I see is still available on Amazon:  https://www.amazon.com/Four-Hours-Lai-Michael-Bilton/dp/0140177094, and if you are really interested in the alternative "story" of the Vietnam (or should we give it its Vietnamese name?), the American war, have a read of John Pilger's "Heroes":  https://www.amazon.com/Heroes-John-Pilger/dp/0896086666.  I say alternative, because it's not the usual one sided gung-ho, Rambo, Charlie don't surf, shoot up the Gooks stuff spewed out by the mainstream media, but includes the events leading up to, during, and following the war from the perspective of both sides - the atrocities inflicted on Vietnamese civilians, the glossing over of the many war crimes perpetrated, and the disgraceful way that the drafted foot soldiers were treated by the US government.  And when you get to the part where he was on one of the carriers used in the evacuation, giving a surreal picture of steaks being cooked, choppers pushed overboard, the admiral announcing that they would soon be able to get a beer, to raucous cheers (the US navy being dry), and a marine sergeant looks over the side and says "why,it's them, it's the gooks" as a frail, waterlogged craft loaded with Vietnamese, mothers with babies included, begs to be taken on board only to be left to sink as the carrier begins to steam away, then maybe you'll understand why it is relevant to this thread.

Edited March 18, 2018 by ballpoint

[faraday]

2 hours ago, SouthernDelight said:

William Laws Calley Jr. a former United States Army officer convicted by court-martial of murdering 22 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians in the My Lai Massacre.
After three and a half years of house arrest, Calley was released pursuant to a ruling by federal judge.
This sounds like an appropriate sentence fitting the crime...

I really hope you're not being serious.

[StraightTalk]

7 minutes ago, faraday said:

I really hope you're not being serious.

refer to post #31 and #34

Edited March 18, 2018 by SouthernDelight

[faraday]

7 minutes ago, SouthernDelight said:

refer to post #31 and #34

Only just saw them: flipping internet is running so slowly, despite the speed test telling me it's at 120mbps!

[Langsuan Man]

15 hours ago, ThaiFelix said:

The last time I looked up "Vietnam War" on Wikipedia, the first paragraph stated the the US won the war because the North Vietnamese surrendered at the Paris Peace Accords??? 

Not my Wikipedia:

 

Quote

The Vietnam War (Vietnamese: Chiến tranh Việt Nam), also known as the Second Indochina War,[59] and in Vietnam as the Resistance War Against America (Vietnamese: Kháng chiến chống Mỹ) or simply the American War, was a conflict that occurred in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia from 1 November 1955[A 1] to the fall of Saigonon 30 April 1975. It was the second of the Indochina Wars and was officially fought between North Vietnam and the government of South Vietnam. The North Vietnamese army was supported by the Soviet Union, China and other communist allies and the South Vietnamese army was supported by the United States, South Korea, Australia, Thailand and other anti-communist allies.[60] The war is therefore considered a Cold War-era proxy war.[61] The war is considered a humiliation for the United States

emphasis mine:

source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

[Hupaponics]

2 hours ago, ballpoint said:

"To try and muddle the issue."  Rubbish.  The entire shameful story of the Vietnam war, from the Gulf of Tonkin incident to the evacuation of Saigon, is a mixture of the surreal, ridiculous and deeply tragic, and is entirely relevant to what happened in My Lai and the people who perpetrated the atrocity there.  I posted the pictures of the choppers being pushed overboard.  I also posted the documentary "Four hours in My Lai" in post 5, and the quote and link to the John Pilger article on My Lai in post 19.  If you think that is "muddling the issue" then I suggest you sit down and view the documentary.  I also suggest you read the book written in association with it, which I see is still available on Amazon:  https://www.amazon.com/Four-Hours-Lai-Michael-Bilton/dp/0140177094, and if you are really interested in the alternative "story" of the Vietnam (or should we give it its Vietnamese name?), the American war, have a read of John Pilger's "Heroes":  https://www.amazon.com/Heroes-John-Pilger/dp/0896086666.  I say alternative, because it's not the usual one sided gung-ho, Rambo, Charlie don't surf, shoot up the Gooks stuff spewed out by the mainstream media, but includes the events leading up to, during, and following the war from the perspective of both sides - the atrocities inflicted on Vietnamese civilians, the glossing over of the many war crimes perpetrated, and the disgraceful way that the drafted foot soldiers were treated by the US government.  And when you get to the part where he was on one of the carriers used in the evacuation, giving a surreal picture of steaks being cooked, choppers pushed overboard, the admiral announcing that they would soon be able to get a beer, to raucous cheers (the US navy being dry), and a marine sergeant looks over the side and says "why,it's them, it's the gooks" as a frail, waterlogged craft loaded with Vietnamese, mothers with babies included, begs to be taken on board only to be left to sink as the carrier begins to steam away, then maybe you'll understand why it is relevant to this thread.

John Pilger is amazing. He's on YouTube as well. 

I haven't read his book "Heros" but the report in the same name is very interesting. 

[thaiguzzi]

12 hours ago, ballpoint said:

"I was here in 1974 and people were still afraid to talk to anyone resembling Calley and his murderers. What I had not realised at the time was that the Americans had declared most of Quang Ngai province a 'free fire zone' and that 70 per cent of the villages had been razed. When it was My Lai's turn civilians were being killed at a rate of 50,000 a year. This was known as 'collateral damage'."

 

http://johnpilger.com/articles/vietnam-nbsp-now

 

Thanx for that link. Great read. Stunning journalism.

[Thaidream]

I will never ever be able to forget the nightmare of vietnam- just graduated from University and looking forward to graduate school when I got the letter we all dreaded- a draft notice- within 45 days I was wearing a uniform and in basic training- first assignment-Vietnam.

 

I knew the war would end badly for everyone- the Americans and especially the Vietnamese.  I wanted to resist- to try and not report- I even asked my father for help- but being a WW11 Vet- there was no way he could countenance helping me avoid 'duty' and I never had the 'guts' to flee but I wanted to . Instead I went.

 

I had read many books about Vietnam including some written by Ho Chi Minh and others who were generally opposed to the war. I remember reading that Ho had said 'We will win and you will lose, you will leave our country defeated '. I knew it was true when I read it  and it was reinforced to me during the time I spent in the war zone. We had a saying that in Vietnam -there was some much bullsxxx, you had to sprout wings to get out of it. I was  lucky- I never had to kill anyone as I was assigned to a Headquarters unit- but  it was all around me- cruelty; poverty; soldiers on drugs; no real planning; chaos; death and destruction- and it ended just as I knew if would and as Ho predicted-  On April 30, 1975-  the North vietnamese army pulled into Saigon- entered the South Vietnamese Presidential Palace and declared victory.

 

I can't even visit the memorial to the war in Vietnam which is in Washington DC without breaking down , almost 60K dead plus hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese and the effects of agent Orange . Death and Destruction and for what end. To allegedly save Southeast Asia from Communism? Absurd.   The  entry of America into Vietnam was contrived by the Gulf of Tonkin incident- there was no incident but it was used to pave the way for  almost 600,000 US Forces to be sent to Vietnam and another 50,000 in Thailand. And yet, has America learned anything from this?  Read the History and decide

Lt Calley was  the only war criminal convicted but there is plenty of blood on the hands of  a variety of  high ranking US civilians who knew damn well that the war was 'lost'  but refused to end it and allowed thousands of Americans and Vietnamese to go to their deaths to pursue a war that should have never started.  They called it Peace with Honor and the majority of Americans who went really didn't want to be there, did their time and left- many broken- many disabled-  most still alive . The real war criminals are those who started the war; gave the orders to prosecute the war and those who profited by it.

 

Peace with Honor?  I think not. 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Thaidream

[Grumpy Duck]

18 hours ago, Ahab said:

Not true, several officers were brought to trial for this incident and the Lt in charge of the massacre was put on trial and convicted in 1971. He served prison time and eventually was released. The Army tried to cover the entire thing up.

 

Somewhat true, Calley was sent to the USDB Leavenworth, however commissioned officers cannot be confined with enlisted personnel. As I have read Calley was transferred to Ft Benning, GA where he was placed under house arrest. Ultimately pardoned by Nixon. I understand several of his superiors were indeed tried by general courts marshal, but found not guilty. I do know the Captain who ordered Calley to run an anti VC operation in Mei Lei was found not guilty claiming Calley misunderstood his orders. 

[Grumpy Duck]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

The real war criminals are those who started the war; gave the orders to prosecute the war and those who profited by it.

I wonder what was your reaction when Nixon blanket pardoned deserters and draft evaders during the end of the “conflict”. I processed many of them who surrendered in Los Angeles, bussed them to Ft Ord for final action. 

 

I vaguely recall a PBS documentary stating that Ho Chi Minh only asked Eisenhower for moral support in their fight against French Imperialism. Ike chose to financially support our allies the French (as well as the US military industrial complex). Imagine what would have happened had we supported the Vietnamese fight for freedom?

Edited March 18, 2018 by Grumpy Duck

[simple1]

23 minutes ago, Grumpy Duck said:

I wonder what was your reaction when Nixon blanket pardoned deserters and draft evaders during the end of the “conflict”. I processed many of them who surrendered in Los Angeles, bussed them to Ft Ord for final action. 

 

I vaguely recall a PBS documentary stating that Ho Chi Minh only asked Eisenhower for moral support in their fight against French Imperialism. Ike chose to financially support our allies the French (as well as the US military industrial complex). Imagine what would have happened had we supported the Vietnamese fight for freedom?

Actually Truman.

 

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305263

 

Eisenhower subscribed to the Domino Theory.

Edited March 18, 2018 by simple1

[mtls2005]

I'll never, ever forget reading Seymour Hersh's articles on the My Lai Massacre in The New Yorker in January, 1972.

 

His earlier dispatches from 1969, when he worked for the St. Louis Port-Dispatch, can be found here: http://pierretristam.com/Bobst/library/wf-200.htm

 

(His reporting on the Bin Laden raid was controversial.)

 

The first article is available here:

 

A Reporter at Large
January 22, 1972 Issue

 

Coverup—I
By Seymour M. Hersh

Early on March 16, 1968, a company of soldiers in the United States Army’s Americal Division were dropped in by helicopter for an assault against a hamlet known as My Lai 4, in the bitterly contested province of Quang Ngai, on the northeastern coast of South Vietnam. A hundred G.I.s and officers stormed the hamlet in military-textbook style, advancing by platoons; the troops expected to engage the Vietcong Local Force 48th Battalion—one of the enemy’s most successful units—but instead they found women, children, and old men, many of them still cooking their breakfast rice over outdoor fires. During the next few hours, the civilians were murdered. 

 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1972/01/22/i-coverup

[Thaidream]

Actually, I am glad that the war resisters and deserters were pardoned -  had the Government  tried to convict them- it would have been an ugly stain .  There was a time when I held them in disdain but it takes some 'guts' to flee when the punishment could be a long stretch in prison and a 'record' making employment difficult. A tough choice because most still had  discharges less than honorable and had to appeal for upgrades.

 

I eventually went from Vietnam to Udorn Thailand where much of the bombing of Cambodia was taking place- illegally, I might add.  A very brave soul- who I knew- alerted  the Congress and the bombing was 'halted' theoretically. Colonels later became Generals and the whistleblower drummed out of the service. So much for justice.

 

One of the worst was Secretary of Defense McNamara who persecuted the war even as he admits knowing that it was a lost cause. He eventually resigned but kept quiet about his misgivings until the war was over and he wrote his book. All of them-Kissinger; Johnson; Nixon; McNamara thought that 'might made right' and they were willing to sacrifice so many for so little. I am convinced Kennedy- had he lived- would have pulled out of Vietnam and brought the troops home . Some have postulated that that decision is what led to his death.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Thaidream

[Ahab]

9 hours ago, MrMuddle said:

No one from the US government, was ever convicted of war crimes, for any of the multitude of atrocities committed in Vietnam, such as Agent Orange, from which victims are still suffering today. 

What part of "No one from the US GOVERNMENT was ever brought to trial for war crimes", did you not understand. Try READING other people's posts before wrongly trying to "correct" them.

So the LT. from the US Army (which is part of the US government) doesn't count? OK, have a nice day.

[Ahab]

12 hours ago, Carib said:

 

Not so the topic is : On March 16, 1968, 504 people were killed by American soldiers in Son My, a collection of hamlets between the central Vietnamese coast and a ridge of misty mountains, in an incident known in the West as the My Lai Massacre, and how some of the survivors remember it.

Thank you for keeping the post on topic. I was responding to the previous posts regarding helicopters being pushed off US warships after the fall of Saigon.

[rosst]

Yes, a terrible stain on the US military but let us not forget the multitude of horrendous torture and execution of the US and Australian soldiers. 

Let us remember and vow it will not occur again. 

[Thaidream]

The vast majority of the Americans' Australians and others that served in Vietnam went without rancour and did their duty.  It was a minority that committed atrocities. The concept of 'free fire' zones and pacification projects were actually developed by civilians in the defense department who sold the Generals on the idea that a certain amount of terror would force the  'enemy' to withdraw or be killed.

 

They forgot the history of Vietnam in that no invader has conquered them and most of the  population saw a corrupt Southern Government and an invasion force supporting them. The Americans never could win the 'hearts and minds' of the Vietnamese because they were fighting for their country. Ho was always right- once the US had enough- they would head home. 

[Scott]

Troll post removed.

 

[Grumpy Duck]

19 hours ago, simple1 said:

Actually Truman.

 

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305263

 

Eisenhower subscribed to the Domino Theory.

Thanks for the link

[Grumpy Duck]

I would be interested in seeing the camps where Vietnamese refugees stayed when here in Thailand. 

 

Any ideas?

[Grumpy Duck]

18 hours ago, Thaidream said:

McNamara thought that 'might made right' and they were willing to sacrifice so many for so little. I am convinced Kennedy- had he lived- would have pulled out of Vietnam and brought the troops home . Some have postulated that that decision is what led to his death.

I agree.. I understand Johnson made a lot of money off the war. I have heard that Brown & Root engineering was owned by Ladybird Johnson at that time. They had contracts to build airbases an other military installations in RVN. I believe Johnson was partially behind the Kennedy assassination. 

[Scott]

29 minutes ago, Grumpy Duck said:

I would be interested in seeing the camps where Vietnamese refugees stayed when here in Thailand. 

 

Any ideas?

There was one that I used to get seconded to in Panat Nikom.   There were refugees from Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos in the camp.  

 

[Grumpy Duck]

On 3/18/2018 at 10:27 AM, faraday said:

Only just saw them: flipping internet is running so slowly, despite the speed test telling me it's at 120mbps!

Your connection may be 120 mbs but the sending may be the slow link

[Grumpy Duck]

On 3/17/2018 at 9:48 PM, thaiguzzi said:

He was given a life sentence and served THREE DAYS, before Trickie Dickie got him off the hook. He then served 2-3 years "house arrest"...

Then ultimately his conviction was overturned in federal court based on several issues. 

[Grumpy Duck]

On 3/17/2018 at 10:08 PM, katana said:

I read that Mai Lai-type massacres were fairly common at the time in Vietnam. It's just that Mai Lai was one of the few that made it to the press.

I have heard many such stories myself. Often I doubt the integrity of many such stories. Such as CIA interrogators questioning prisoners in a helicopter then throwing one out for not answering, that story was also told as performed by ROK Army soldiers. 

 

War is ugly, 

 

[katana]

It wasn't a 'story' as you call it, but from John Pilger in his book Heroes, who was actually a journalist reporting from Vietnam where he was stationed for some time. If Mai Lai happened, it's not much of a stretch to conclude it wasn't a one off event. Are you saying Mai Lai didn't happen, or is exaggerated?

By the way, never heard your helicopter story before.